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There are heroes on both sides!
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Apr 13, 2017 03:14
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Is Midir's laser beam Dark damage? I can't reliably dodge the explosions from his phase 2 laser so I'm wondering if equipping a shield with dark resist will help mitigate it. I'm really tired of spending 7-8 minutes slogging my way through phase 1 only to get murdered because I rolled left instead of right.
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Apr 13, 2017 03:17
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Internet Kraken posted:The Dark is neither inherently good nor evil. It may have elevated man but it can also turn him into something vile. Fire is no different however; remember that the demons are born of flame. A twisted one yes, but as Cornyx in DS3 stats the bonfire isn't inherently different. Yeah basically all of ds2 as well as the ringed city dlc basically outright state that fire and darkness are two sides of the same coin, its just the gods as well as our own bias that lead us to think that the dark is inherently bad.
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Apr 13, 2017 03:17
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Internet Kraken posted:You literally use humanity, fragments of the abyss, to revert your hollowing in Dark Souls 1. Hollows can not achieve culture, but Gwyn did not grant early men humanity. They acquired humanity via the Abyss and the Dark Soul. Gwyn feared this and sealed it away, which causes them to revert back to hollows. Here's the problem with your logic. 1) The Dark Sign is the result of a seal of fire over humanity. This keeps it inside humans' bodies, preventing Oolacile 2: Abyssal Boogaloo. 2) When the power of fire weakens, the Dark Sign becomes visible (read: the seal weakens and the Sign shows up as a hole in the seal) and humans go hollow. 3) You are forgetting that in order to stave off Hollowing, what do you actually do? You take your humanity, reach out, and then you burn it. You put it under a seal of fire. This is true even in DS2, you shove the effigy into your chest, inside the seal. This means that, ultimately, the seal of fire stops Hollowing and whatever happened in Oolacile when it is fully powered. That makes it ultimately a well-intentioned move, because there is exactly zero evidence that humans without the seal can be trusted to not go nuts.
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Apr 13, 2017 03:19
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Always expect Tallgeese to side with
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Apr 13, 2017 03:25
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New Concept Hole posted:There are heroes on both sides! i feel like general grievous with his one hundred lightsabres is a pretty good summary of the dark souls experience Internet Kraken posted:Mound-making is just like normal invasions most of the time. The only difference is that your victory condition can be fulfilled by killing the host or a certain number of phantoms. This just means that your invasions will end early as hosts tend to die before their phantoms do. Not an issue if all you care about is getting your reward though. If you mean mound-making via a summon sign, nobody is every gonna summon you with one unless they're trying to gank you. thanks for the info. i'm just grinding out the last few items i need for trophies because i'm stupid like that. moundmaking ahoy!
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Apr 13, 2017 03:25
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alf_pogs posted:i feel like general grievous with his one hundred lightsabres is a pretty good summary of the dark souls experience And the cough/general raggedness. Don't forget the cough.
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Apr 13, 2017 03:28
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Tallgeese posted:Here's the problem with your logic. Yeah but without humanity and the Dark Soul everything's barren and dead by the time of Dark Souls 3. As the inherent balance of the world has been disturbed. The first sin caused that imbalance when Gwyn linked humanity to the flame. He turned all of our women into bonfires...
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Apr 13, 2017 03:28
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There's zero indication that without the dark sign, all of humanity would end up like Oolacile. The corruption of the Dark is not something that only happens to humans. Artorias was a god and he fell to the corruption just like all the inhabitants of Oolacile. Also, we know from the Ringed City that the dark sign was not always present and that the weapons used by the Ringed Knights were forged before it was created. If the Ringed Knights were capable of forging proper weapons and armour, they must have had a level of intelligence far above that of a hollow or the twisted creatures of Oolacile.
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Apr 13, 2017 03:31
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Also Oolacile is not all that different than what happened at Izalizth. Fire can twist creatures into abominations just like the dark and I'd say the chaos flame caused a lot more long term problems than the incident at Oolacile, although that is at least partially because our player character showed up to kill all the bosses for cool loot and just happened to stop Manus in the process.
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Apr 13, 2017 03:34
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It isn't the fading of the fire that causes the Dark Sign. It's the linking of the fire. The fire used in the ringed seal is caught up in that link. Humanity leaves when the person dies, but through the power of the resurrected flame now touching all people they then get back up but some of their humanity slips out before they wake back up.
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Apr 13, 2017 03:35
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Internet Kraken posted:There's zero indication that without the dark sign, all of humanity would end up like Oolacile. The corruption of the Dark is not something that only happens to humans. Artorias was a god and he fell to the corruption just like all the inhabitants of Oolacile. Also, we know from the Ringed City that the dark sign was not always present and that the weapons used by the Ringed Knights were forged before it was created. If the Ringed Knights were capable of forging proper weapons and armour, they must have had a level of intelligence far above that of a hollow or the twisted creatures of Oolacile. Right; what happened at Oolacile is that Manus' soul (the remants of the dark soul) was disturbed and corrupted, which created the Abyss. Its the same as the Witch of Izalith attempting to re-create the First Flame and accidentally creating demons; just the opposite thing (dark instead of fire) The Dark Sign was simply Gwyn trying to keep the humans down, because he was afraid of a human lord killing him and replacing him like he killed the dragons and replaced them. TLDR: Gwyn is Zeus, he killed the Titans and took over Olympus, and now he fears humanity getting fire from Prometheus and killing him and taking over. Artorias didn't fall to corruption though; he made a covenant willingly. That's significant. But yes; the implication is Humanity was actually doing well and on its way to creating its own Kingdom of dark, and usurping Gwyn. Cnidaria posted:Also Oolacile is not all that different than what happened at Izalizth. Fire can twist creatures into abominations just like the dark and I'd say the chaos flame caused a lot more long term problems than the incident at Oolacile, although that is at least partially because our player character showed up to kill all the bosses for cool loot and just happened to stop Manus in the process. gently caress, you beat me to it.
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Apr 13, 2017 03:41
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FauxGateau posted:Yeah but without humanity and the Dark Soul everything's barren and dead by the time of Dark Souls 3. As the inherent balance of the world has been disturbed. The first sin caused that imbalance when Gwyn linked humanity to the flame. Again, all that can be rephrased as "the power of fire is weakening". I'm not sure where all this "balance of the world" thing is coming from. The worst thing you can actually accuse Gwyn of doing is trying to extend general prosperity. That's arguably what civilization in and of itself is, which is why I made my snide "Hobbes" comment. Internet Kraken posted:There's zero indication that without the dark sign, all of humanity would end up like Oolacile. The corruption of the Dark is not something that only happens to humans. Artorias was a god and he fell to the corruption just like all the inhabitants of Oolacile. Also, we know from the Ringed City that the dark sign was not always present and that the weapons used by the Ringed Knights were forged before it was created. If the Ringed Knights were capable of forging proper weapons and armour, they must have had a level of intelligence far above that of a hollow or the twisted creatures of Oolacile. No, the seal did not exist initially. What the description actually says is that the reason the seal of fire was placed was that the weapons and armor betrayed a "smidgen of life" from inside. The implication here is that there was concern over what would happen if that life would come out. Now why would there be that concern...? Oh, probably because the result had been seen, and it was rather... tentacular, for lack of a better word. SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:It isn't the fading of the fire that causes the Dark Sign. It's the linking of the fire. The fire used in the ringed seal is caught up in that link. Humanity leaves when the person dies, but through the power of the resurrected flame now touching all people they then get back up but some of their humanity slips out before they wake back up. This seems unlikely, because if this were actually true then there would have to be exactly zero hollows while Gwyn was alive, since he was the first one to link the fire.
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Apr 13, 2017 03:43
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Tallgeese posted:No, the seal did not exist initially. What the description actually says is that the reason the seal of fire was placed was that the weapons and armor betrayed a "smidgen of life" from inside. Eh, Gwyn was just afraid of somebody else being in power. Why do you think he killed the dragons in the first place?
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Apr 13, 2017 03:44
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Tallgeese posted:Here's the problem with your logic. Which actually sucks. Cause without that dang seal of fire everyone turns into cool snake monsters or trees or mothmans or even angels. Dark Souls world would be way radder if Gwyn let the age of men be a thing.
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Apr 13, 2017 03:44
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If I'm getting my rear end whupped by the dreg heap boss, is there a different direction I can run and do stuff of is that pretty much it?
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Apr 13, 2017 03:46
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School Nickname posted:They actually had to nerf the angels because you basically had to be Jesus Yamato to survive them out in the open.
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Apr 13, 2017 03:46
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Zaphod42 posted:Eh, Gwyn was just afraid of somebody else being in power. Why do you think he killed the dragons in the first place? This line of logic does not make sense. If Gwyn was so afraid of being usurped by a human... why did he throw himself into the fire? Throwing yourself into the fire is very clearly supposed to be some kind of self-sacrifice.
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Apr 13, 2017 03:47
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veni veni veni posted:If I'm getting my rear end whupped by the dreg heap boss, is there a different direction I can run and do stuff of is that pretty much it? That's pretty much it. Try co-op! There's a whole other huge zone which is VERY different from Dreg Heap after that boss, which you will probably like much more.
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Apr 13, 2017 03:46
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Tallgeese posted:This line of logic does not make sense. He self-sacrificed to maintain his Kingdom and the age of fire. He kept mankind down because he feared an age of dark. They are opposed. He did not sacrifice himself for the age of dark. Linking the flame PREVENTS the age of dark. You're right that it is self-sacrifice, but its self-sacrifice to keep your enemy from winning, and keep your children/friends/empire going. It was a last ditch move to keep Olympus from the humans and keep it in the hands of gods, even if not himself. Not to mention he does live on as the cindered form you fight in DS1, although that's not exactly a great existence. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Apr 13, 2017 |
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Apr 13, 2017 03:47
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I thought of Gwyn as Zues when Filianore came up and it made me think of Persephone
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Apr 13, 2017 03:49
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Zaphod42 posted:He self-sacrificed to maintain his Kingdom and the age of fire. That is exactly correct. He literally sacrificed himself to maintain the Age of Fire, because there is absolutely no indication that the other thing that might happen is anything but crappy. That hardly suggests he was tyrannical, that suggests he was concerned what would happen to what by most accounts was a pretty rad civilization.
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Apr 13, 2017 03:50
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Tallgeese posted:This line of logic does not make sense. It's self-sacrifice to support his own goals, i.e. the Age of Fire.
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Apr 13, 2017 03:50
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Tallgeese posted:This line of logic does not make sense. His sacrifice was to literally stop the age of man from coming about. Kaathe literally states this in ds1. Edit: here is am excerpt from Kaathe: "However... Lord Gwyn trembled at the Dark. Clinging to his Age of Fire, and in dire fear of humans, and the Dark Lord who would one day be born amongst them, Lord Gwyn resisted the course of nature. By sacrificing himself to link the Fire, and commanding his children to shepherd the humans, Gwyn has blurred your past, to prevent the birth of the Dark Lord."
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Apr 13, 2017 03:51
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Tallgeese posted:That is exactly correct. He literally sacrificed himself to maintain the Age of Fire, because there is absolutely no indication that the other thing that might happen is anything but crappy. Yeah but the dragons probably thought they had a pretty rad civilization too 
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Apr 13, 2017 03:52
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Zaphod42 posted:Yeah but the dragons probably thought they had a pretty rad civilization too There's no suggestion they did, or had any sort of higher intelligence. --- The problem is the suggestion that Gwyn was afraid of his own personal power being usurped for selfish reasons. You can't really square that suggestion with the fact that he more or less sentenced himself to one hell of a lot of torment, and he did so willingly. I would be really scared that humans would wreck the world too if it turned out they could suddenly turn into corrosive tentacular monstrosities with no self-control. Tallgeese fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Apr 13, 2017 |
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Apr 13, 2017 03:53
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lol this game is crashing after every three or so arena fights after this patch dropped
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Apr 13, 2017 04:00
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Seathe being capable of betrayal and of having a library implies the dragons have enough intelligence for a civilization. And this is pure speculation with nothing to back it other than the fact that Londor shows that it is possible to have cognitive hollows, but isn't it possible that all the dark run wild and oolacile stuff is a result of containing mankind's Inherent dark beneath a seal for so long? Something like keeping a soda can under pressure before opening it, maybe if you hadn't stuffed it in there it wouldn't be so volatile in the first place!
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Apr 13, 2017 04:02
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What I'm saying is, if not for the seal of fire, perhaps mankind might have been a race of ugly immortal sentient raisin-people with magical dark powers but with said powers generally under control.
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Apr 13, 2017 04:04
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CuddlyZombie posted:Seathe being capable of betrayal and of having a library implies the dragons have enough intelligence for a civilization. And it could also be said that the only reason Seath is like that is because he lacked the scales of immortality. He is considered something of a very unique case. The only other real everlasting dragons we know of either sit there and do nothing or spew fire at you because ???. CuddlyZombie posted:What I'm saying is, if not for the seal of fire, perhaps mankind might have been a race of ugly immortal sentient "hollows" with magical dark powers but with said powers generally under control. The problem is that you don't know that, and there's no indication of that being the case.
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Apr 13, 2017 04:05
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considering that the age of dark is part of the natural order I feel like unnaturally extending the age of fire because your crew happens to be in charge is the definition of selfishness
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Apr 13, 2017 04:05
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CuddlyZombie posted:Seathe being capable of betrayal and of having a library implies the dragons have enough intelligence for a civilization. Yeah but he never talks. He really should have had a parting line, such as, "You're pretty good"
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Apr 13, 2017 04:05
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Tallgeese posted:The problem is that you don't know that, and there's no indication of that being the case. I know, it's pure and utter speculation. I believe the series is intentionally written to have holes of information that can never be proven one way or the other, so such speculation doesn't feel nearly as out of place to me as it would in other franchises.
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Apr 13, 2017 04:06
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Tallgeese posted:The problem is the suggestion that Gwyn was afraid of his own personal power being usurped for selfish reasons. You can't really square that suggestion with the fact that he more or less sentenced himself to one hell of a lot of torment, and he did so willingly. Gwyn wasn't concerned with his personal power but rather the power of the gods in general. He was, by all accounts, extremely concerned with his legacy. When his firstborn defied his wishes, he had all records of him expunged and his existence hidden. He did not want anyone going against what he viewed to be the perfect order of the world. And in that world, the gods hold domain over all life including man. Tallgeese posted:There's no suggestion they did, or had any sort of higher intelligence. The dragons are absolutely intelligent, they are just shown to have extremely different desires than other creatures. Namely, that they lack them, as they were nearly immortal. The dragons existed in a state of harmony with the ancient world. They did not need anything, so they did not want anything. They were content to sit and just...well, exist. Which sounds really loving weird to us but we're humans. We want to eat, sleep, reproduce, and do all sorts of other stuff in our limited lifespan. The dragons didn't need to do any of that and lived forever. As such, their civilization was completely different from ours. The entire story of the everlasting dragons has a lot of influence drawn from religions in the real world that focus on attaining enlightenment and freeing yourself from material wants. They made this really obvious in DS3 with all the imagery in Archdragon Peak.
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Apr 13, 2017 04:09
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Johnny Joestar posted:considering that the age of dark is part of the natural order I feel like unnaturally extending the age of fire because your crew happens to be in charge is the definition of selfishness Especially given we see what that causes, the world just twisting more and more on itself until you get the Dreg Heap.
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Apr 13, 2017 04:08
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I don't think Gwyn sacrificed everything he had to prolong the Age of Fire because he was petty, selfish, or power hungry, I suspect it's more that it's all he knows, and all he can know. As the avatar of light, he can't really conceive of anything other than light being good, not even a complementary balance of light and dark, all he can see is dark (sin?) that needs to be purged or sealed. It's a pretty common motif when you're talking duality, especially in fiction with angels and demons that borrows from Christianity, which fits with DS3 pretty well. hampig fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Apr 13, 2017 |
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Apr 13, 2017 04:10
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So... how significant is the "Improved scaling at high DEX levels"? Is it a significant difference? Is it just specific weapons? Is it so drat good that it might compel someone to dump levels in DEX after 40 as a principal focus of a build? Or is it basically just, "if you have extra points left over, putting them in DEX isn't objectively the WORST option"?
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Apr 13, 2017 04:12
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For whatever it's worth, the description on the Bloated Head says that the residents of Oolacile had their humanity run wild as a result of being devoured by Manus. This is ambiguous and not super coherent but doesn't suggest to me that this is anything like the natural state of humans, rather it seems to echo the flame of Chaos which produced alarming, destructive outpouring of life.
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Apr 13, 2017 04:13
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CuddlyZombie posted:I know, it's pure and utter speculation. I believe the series is intentionally written to have holes of information that can never be proven one way or the other, so such speculation doesn't feel nearly as out of place to me as it would in other franchises. The thing is that we do have an idea of what happens when humanity breaks free of their seal: it kills on contact, and has the explicitly noted tendency to love doing that. Now you could say that's because of the seal... but there's really no evidence of that. Internet Kraken posted:The entire story of the everlasting dragons has a lot of influence drawn from religions in the real world that focus on attaining enlightenment and freeing yourself from material wants. They made this really obvious in DS3 with all the imagery in Archdragon Peak. Yes, I am quite aware of all of that. I misphrased, I should have left it at "civilization". What they had, if anything, is arguably not that, because they had no desires due to their immortality. Archdragon Peak was also likely built by weirdo dragon worshippers/descendants, not by dragons themselves.
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Apr 13, 2017 04:15
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Anyways whether or not you consider the dragons civilization to be an acceptable one doesn't really matter. There's no indication that the dragons were not willing to coexist with humans and gods after they came to be. Gwyn appears to have been the aggressor in the conflict. Its not clear why he felt the need to kill them. It could of been out of fear or a simple lust for more power. The end result is that he tore down one civilization so that his desired one could have more room to prosper. So its fair to assume that he would do the same thing to humans.
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Apr 13, 2017 04:15
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