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Are arty range increases bugged in vanilla too?
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Apr 13, 2017 14:47
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Fangz posted:Yeah, garrison buildings. Yeah, the Paradox methods of size balance. The thing is, you get a solid fixed base income that is typically more than an entire 4 region province in TW games, so 1 region minors have more money to throw on armies than 2 province nations, so I still heavily dispute that it serves much purpose. If that is the purpose, I feel it doesn't really serve it in a manor that is sensible, especially since Administrative cost used to take care of that pretty simply. I still challenge the idea that 2 x 10 Men at Arms should cost more than 1 x 20 Men at Arms.
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Apr 13, 2017 14:52
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Fangz posted:Again, the factor there is that the reward isn't big enough. Letting him just start with the spells reduces his distinctiveness. The ideal result is not to balance Grimgor with Azhag, it's to make them represent two interesting and unique ways of playing the game. Giving Azhag a better reason to go north would be more fun. Being a functional fighter/mage and also being literally the only character in the entire greenskin diaspora who can cast death magic is already a pretty distinctive niche. I can't even fathom how gigantic of a bonus you'd need to attach to the Crown to make it remotely worth haring off to the north instead of conquering and consolidating the gigantic, enormous pile of money and territory that is the badlands - giving a single leader Death Magic or giving his entire army Vanguard Deploy is not enough of a bonus to incentivize that. You'd really need to give Azhag a new start location to make that play something a player would want to do, or you'd need some sort of huge meta-objective like Skarsnik/Belegar's Race For Karak Eight Peaks. Kanos fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Apr 13, 2017 |
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Apr 13, 2017 14:55
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Fangz posted:Again, the factor there is that the reward isn't big enough. Letting him just start with the spells reduces his distinctiveness. The ideal result is not to balance Grimgor with Azhag, it's to make them represent two interesting and unique ways of playing the game. Giving Azhag a better reason to go north would be more fun. Okay, i have no idea how you can come to the conclusion that vanilla Azhag who is just a weaker orc warboss without his magic would somehow be less distinctive if he was granted his magical abilities from the start? In my eyes hes become MORE distinictve, hes now standing out because Holy Hell its an Orc with DEATH MAGIC. Hiding it behind an item that theres a good chance you're not even going to bother with because holy gently caress vanilla Azhag won't allow you to leave the badlands anytime soon is not my idea of fun gameplay exactly. You should want to do the thing cause you get a kick-rear end item, not because an entire core mechanic that defines your character is locked behind it! As for the rest, thats what im trying to do here as well, besides the magic making im a cool magic lord from the get-go his new ability should make you play orcs slightly different. and for the last bit, well maybe CA should move him up to the far north instead, isn't he supposed to be based up there anyways? Gejnor fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Apr 13, 2017 |
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Apr 13, 2017 14:55
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Gejnor posted:Okay, i have no idea how you can come to the conclusion that vanilla Azhag who is just a weaker orc warboss without his magic would somehow be less distinctive if he was granted his magical abilities from the start? In my eyes hes become MORE distinictve, hes now standing out because Holy Hell its an Orc with DEATH MAGIC. Hiding it behind an item that theres a good chance you're not even going to bother with because holy gently caress vanilla Azhag won't allow you to leave the badlands anytime soon is not my idea of fun gameplay exactly. You should want to do the thing cause you get a kick-rear end item, not an entire core mechanic that defines your character! I guess my point is that in my ideal case I'd see Azhag as basically like Skarsnik in reverse (or maybe like a version of Bretonnia where you run an Errantry War in the early game), where your goal is to get out of the Badlands ASAP, go to a part of the map few people are in, get cool stuff, then come back as an avenging and invincible army. As opposed to 'fight in the Badlands like Grimgor does, except with magic'. shalcar posted:Yeah, the Paradox methods of size balance. Well, like I said, I think this is a replacement for administrative costs. (Background income does do some work here as well, but we're talking the upper end of the scale once background income fades in importance.) I think that as a replacement it has many advantages, in particular being that instead of administrative costs you can mitigate the cost by strategising so that your expansion does *not* make your empire harder to defend. You have a lot more options in the upkeep increase method - you can use diplomacy, you can expand to defensible lines, you can pay the expansion tax by building garrisons, you can just take the risk of not defending your expansion... To people not used to either, it might be a bit more intuitive - with administrative costs, if you expand and take over some undeveloped provinces, your income can actually fall for apparently no reason, because the increased income from the new provinces is cancelled out by administrative costs on your already developed settlements.
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Apr 13, 2017 15:10
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Fangz posted:I guess my point is that in my ideal case I'd see Azhag as basically like Skarsnik in reverse, where your goal is to get out of the Badlands ASAP, go to a part of the map few people are in, get cool stuff, then come back as an avenging and invincible army. As opposed to 'fight in the Badlands like Grimgor does, except with magic'. This would work for a horde faction but there's simply no land for Azhag to conquer to use as a base up there besides the lovely little spread out settlements of Karak Kadrin and  Kraka Drak, so where's the invincible army coming from?
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Apr 13, 2017 15:12
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Kanos posted:This would work for a horde faction but there's simply no land for Azhag to conquer to use as a base up there besides the lovely little spread out settlements of Karak Kadrin and From the benefits the crown gives you. That's my preference.
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Apr 13, 2017 15:15
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Fangz posted:From the benefits the crown gives you. That's my preference. Now i understand you a bit more and i think it should've been done as following: A.) You start with in the badlands with the crown, and you have death magic from the start but you have a skarsnik-like objective to reach some place in Kraka Drak or whatever to fully empower your crown, you then get some neato campaign bonuses if you manage this, which you can use to win your "normal" objectives. B.) You start in the north, with no magic or crown, but once it pops at level 8 it is extremely easy to complete. This leads to the new skarsnik-like objective: Head South, you have to claim some city or some such in the devastation of Nagash province (Hint-hint), doing so gives you bonuses and you can now complete the rest of your 'normal' objectives.
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Apr 13, 2017 15:27
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I think he should just start with death magic rather than trying to shoehorn in a new DLC with limited mod tools
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Apr 13, 2017 15:47
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I'm just bored of the badlands.
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Apr 13, 2017 15:49
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sssssaaaame empire region is way more interesting
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Apr 13, 2017 15:53
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I feel like the Badlands would be a lot more interesting if it had the same centrality, relatively, as the Empire region does. So the expansion of the map to the areas we expect them to include (like the Tomb Kings being south of it, for instance) would naturally make the Badlands more interesting just by being there.
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Apr 13, 2017 15:56
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DOWN JACKET FETISH posted:sssssaaaame Highly recommend running the mod that lets orcs occupy anywhere. It lets you just shove off from the badlands and zoom north to where the good fights are and set up shop. I personally like to take over Averland because it puts you right in the center of a bunch of good fights. Empire to the W/N/NW, Vamps to the E, greenskins and dwarfs to the S/SW/SE. Orcs should be a much bigger problem for Empire than they currently are. It's nonsense that you fight 1-2 full stacks as Empire, provided you didn't decide to go southeast.
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Apr 13, 2017 16:13
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StashAugustine posted:Are arty range increases bugged in vanilla too? Yeah, I was testing the vanilla master engineer bonus to range. One of my mods might have interfered, but I don't think any of them were related to the issue. It is pretty easy to test. Select artillery with improved range, try to force fire at max range, notice the arrows won't go that far. Alternately, fire at oncoming enemies that are out of range and watch for when the artillery stops moving forward. Grejnor, how about a 5/10/15% reduction in firing speed for gunpowder and flame weapons?
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Apr 13, 2017 16:27
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KPC_Mammon posted:Yeah, I was testing the vanilla master engineer bonus to range. One of my mods might have interfered, but I don't think any of them were related to the issue. Well, okay i gave a reduction in firing speed for the organ gun but the skill via engineers sort of fixes the rest of it.
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Apr 13, 2017 16:34
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Tiler Kiwi posted:... i was going to joke about giving everyone vanguard deployment, but come to think of it i can't recall the AI using it, really. what happens if two vanguard deployment armies face off, anyways? id guess there's a way to keep them putting dudes right on top of each other. I haven't seen the AI use it, but in several multiplayer matches my vanguarding Beastmen have coincidentally been placed in the same spot as enemy vanguards. It leads to an immediate melee between the units.
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Apr 13, 2017 16:50
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Dartonus posted:I haven't seen the AI use it, but in several multiplayer matches my vanguarding Beastmen have coincidentally been placed in the same spot as enemy vanguards. It leads to an immediate melee between the units. ha ha ha, awesome. i thought that would be the case but its so ludicrous a concept i was convinced they'd have done something to prevent that
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Apr 13, 2017 17:43
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jokes posted:Highly recommend running the mod that lets orcs occupy anywhere. It lets you just shove off from the badlands and zoom north to where the good fights are and set up shop. I personally like to take over Averland because it puts you right in the center of a bunch of good fights. Empire to the W/N/NW, Vamps to the E, greenskins and dwarfs to the S/SW/SE. Yeah I'm playing an Empire campaign at the moment and anything south of Wissenland has been completely irrelevant to me, it may as well not be in the game. The regional occupation mechanic is a cool idea, but in practice I think it tends to play out so that the same two fights (Empire vs. VC/WoC and Dwarfs/Greenskins) happen over and over and rarely interact. This is compounded by how often the Dwarfs beat the Greenskins when both are AI.
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Apr 13, 2017 18:02
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I realize that except for Toddbringer, all the Elector-Counts are just generic lords, but I still made sure to devote my last play-through to grabbing all of them, including reloading earlier turns to only confederate when their lords were alive. Accepting the gigantic supply line issues that came, all so I could play Pokemon to a series of units who had nothing to distinguish them. But I got them all and won the Long Victory in 106 turns.
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Apr 13, 2017 18:09
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Corrode posted:Yeah I'm playing an Empire campaign at the moment and anything south of Wissenland has been completely irrelevant to me, it may as well not be in the game. The regional occupation mechanic is a cool idea, but in practice I think it tends to play out so that the same two fights (Empire vs. VC/WoC and Dwarfs/Greenskins) happen over and over and rarely interact. This is compounded by how often the Dwarfs beat the Greenskins when both are AI. Green iz Best tends to equalize it more, but Dwarfs still end up on top more often than orcs in my experience. I'm fairly certain this has to do with my alliances and trade agreements causing them to confederate faster with my other dwarfen allies because of mutual friendship with me, and get more money. IN any event, greenskins tend not to be a problem north of Blackfire Pass. I'd like a lot more orc incursion events like how Bretonnians start off.
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Apr 13, 2017 18:51
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IMO give Azhag a better blue/red tree (hat tactics), keep the quest, and when he finishes the hat quest instantly fill out part of his death magic line. Thematic, relevant, and gives you a slightly frontloaded magic investment so you don't feel like you have to wait for a couple levels *after* you finish the quest for it to have any useful payoff
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Apr 13, 2017 18:52
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Tiler Kiwi posted:ha ha ha, awesome. i thought that would be the case but its so ludicrous a concept i was convinced they'd have done something to prevent that It happens a lot, to the point where I got the habit of vanguard deploying Centigors or Wild Riders in certain hiding spots because it is not unusual for people to put ranged cav there. It is also good practice when fighting Wood Elves to put melee units vanguard deployed in firing range of your own line to catch Glade Riders at the start.
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Apr 13, 2017 19:48
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ChickenWing posted:IMO give Azhag a better blue/red tree (hat tactics), keep the quest, and when he finishes the hat quest instantly fill out part of his death magic line. Thematic, relevant, and gives you a slightly frontloaded magic investment so you don't feel like you have to wait for a couple levels *after* you finish the quest for it to have any useful payoff This, but ensure he has at least one red skill called "Hat Tactics". Even better, make them all "Hat X" In general I wish the quests were fewer, more doable-without-halting-your-campaign, more challenging, and more rewarding. Less moving an agent to the rear end-end of the map. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Apr 13, 2017 |
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Apr 13, 2017 19:57
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:This, but ensure he has at least one red skill called "Hat Tactics". Even better, make them all "Hat X" I like the idea of Azhag's red skills being stronger versions of the generic Orc lord red skills. Like, when all of his skills are maxed out his units fight like they're one tier higher. And maybe he can actually field effective archers in lieu of the usual 4-unit strong, technology-buffed Rock Lobber battery.
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Apr 13, 2017 20:22
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Im pretty sure if you gave the greenskin AI more money they'd win against dwarves.
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Apr 13, 2017 20:47
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The only mod I consider essential these days is Instant Quest Battles. Skipping the bullshit busywork to get the legendary items rules and means that I actually end up getting most of them during a given playthrough.
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Apr 13, 2017 21:00
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:This, but ensure he has at least one red skill called "Hat Tactics". Even better, make them all "Hat X" God yes. 'Move dude to faraway place' is such tiresome busywork.
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Apr 13, 2017 21:07
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Are the later, better Chaos mods any good? I feel like in Empire campaigns they turn up and start burning the map down just as the campaigns are getting interesting.
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Apr 13, 2017 21:18
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I've been testing the upgrades you can get ranged troops as dwarfs. Cannons, Organ Guns, and Flame Cannons don't benefit from any +% range. At this point I doubt any artillery benefits from +% range. Iron Drakes will shoot their flames farther with +% range, but beyond normal range their flames will do no damage. This makes bonus range really terrible for them. Thunderers do benefit from +% range, but I don't think they can get that bonus in vanilla. -% Reload speed is additive. If you stack multiple sources (2+ engineers + technology) damage will start to exponentially increase.
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Apr 13, 2017 21:46
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The problem with greenskins is that they lack variety in cavalry units. Theres no boar chairiot archers, big un boar chariot archers, savage orc big un chariot archers, spider chariots, spider chariot archers, spider chariot archer fanatics, etc.
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Apr 13, 2017 21:51
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No, the problem is that outside of Squig hoppers and the armor piercing wolf archers, Greenskin cavalry is pretty awful. Boar cavalry is too slow compared to other shock cavalry and doesn't have good enough stats to make up for it. Wolf cavalry is useless for the most part. Spiders are okay with their poison, but they still evaporate once something looks at them. Squig hoppers and the AP Wolf Archers are the only way to go, because Squigs are amazing and hilarious.
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Apr 13, 2017 21:59
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They have variety, they get the most variety actually. It's just that most of the cavalry is poo poo, and so you end up only using spider archers, boars, and maybe chariots. Orc cavalry is mostly poo poo though. A line of savage/big boar boyz is nothing like a line of reiksguard.
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Apr 13, 2017 22:02
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Panfilo posted:The problem with greenskins is that they lack variety in cavalry units. Theres no boar chairiot archers, big un boar chariot archers, savage orc big un chariot archers, spider chariots, spider chariot archers, spider chariot archer fanatics, etc. Or savage spider boar chariot biggun archer fanatics
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Apr 13, 2017 22:03
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ditty bout my clitty posted:Or savage spider boar chariot biggun archer fanatics This guy gets it!
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Apr 13, 2017 22:03
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jokes posted:They have variety, they get the most variety actually. It's just that most of the cavalry is poo poo, and so you end up only using spider archers, boars, and maybe chariots. They have tons of variety, but it's all garbage apart from Squigs. Squigs are amazing for disruption purposes. Always use squigs.
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Apr 13, 2017 22:05
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Boar chariots loving rule and none of you will change my mind on this
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Apr 13, 2017 22:07
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Arcsquad12 posted:They have tons of variety, but it's all garbage apart from Squigs. Squigs are amazing for disruption purposes. Always use squigs. Are squig/hoppers cavalry? Like are spears good against them?
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Apr 13, 2017 22:11
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Corrode posted:God yes. 'Move dude to faraway place' is such tiresome busywork. Mannfred getting two quests that ask him to move two different classes of early-game agents to two neighbouring badlands provinces is peak "jesus devs". On the bright side, the later leaders have much less crazy requirements. I think Louen can get his poo poo without going too far from Bretonnia, and I think the Fay Enchantress only has to send a damsel as far as Norsca and then hit Nordland on the way back. Not perfect but much better. In general imo, though, put in more battles and challenges that actually impact the campaign and less "fight a context-free battle" or "move an agent to X" Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Apr 13, 2017 |
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Apr 13, 2017 22:12
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ZearothK posted:It happens a lot, to the point where I got the habit of vanguard deploying Centigors or Wild Riders in certain hiding spots because it is not unusual for people to put ranged cav there. It is also good practice when fighting Wood Elves to put melee units vanguard deployed in firing range of your own line to catch Glade Riders at the start. Celtic mirrors in Atilla were prone to being hilarious clusterfucks because the entirety of both armies would have vanguard deployment.
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Apr 13, 2017 22:31
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Mannfred getting two quests that ask him to move two different classes of early-game agents to two neighbouring badlands provinces is peak "jesus devs". I'll forever use Instant Quest Battles because the quest battles themselves are often pretty cool and interesting but there is literally nothing interesting or compelling about "spend 8 turns walking a banshee to the gently caress end of badlands" or "build a tier 4 unit for your army when this is the quest that you get at level 8 on your starting LL".
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Apr 13, 2017 22:43
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