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I might be insane. Sae makes complete sense but I still can't wrap my head around Yaldabaoth.
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Apr 18, 2017 09:14
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cheetah7071 posted:Actually I think this all makes sense and you've mostly convinced me, though I still think she was up to some shady stuff (but you've convinced me those sins aren't directly the cause of her palace) I don't think she quite did stuff like forging evidence or forcing confessions (even if she may have benefited from them), but she did very evidently do stuff like threatening a man and saying she'll force him to lose custody of his daughter to get more info about a case that happened years ago. And although she's uncomfortable with the cops drugging Joker she still completely expects her interrogation to end with him in jail his partner's exposed and those slimy cops unpunished.
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Apr 18, 2017 09:17
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The Gorp posted:I might be insane. Yaldabaoth is a being born from humanity's subconscious desire to have someone else handle it. "It" being anything and everything. The desire to not care about society's problems and trust that it'll all work out somehow. He was born from apathy, "sloth" if you will, and has no goal other than to handle everything for everyone. Which involves mind control and eliminating any dissent. He's not a god of control that hates humanity, he's a god of control that serves humanity's worst impulse, the desire to look away from injustice because dealing with problems is too much of a bother. He set up the rigged game with Joker and all that because he was convinced that humanity needed him.
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Apr 18, 2017 09:31
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The Gorp posted:I might be insane. He's the Holy Grail. A being that grants the distorted desires of a toxic society of people who are fine just living their lives unconcerned with everything going on around them, believing that they can be happy simply following the rules of "society" and not thinking for themselves. He's the God of Control but I think he very specifically represents not overt control but the intangible and invisible control of something like society or expectations. Like, how with Kamoshida a good number of the faculty, students, and other adults knew he was up to bad poo poo but did nothing to stop it. Because it's not directly their problem or it doesn't involve them. He's the representation of that sort of mindset. It comes up in a bunch of the other palace's as well. It's why the summoning of Persona is related to things like 'rebellion', 'betrayal', and finding 'your own justice'. The Phantom Thieves are the opposite of that sort of thinking. He sets up two humans in a game because he's supposedly following the wishes of humanity, but really he's just a distorted sense of control. No matter what happened he was going to use his powers to revert human society to an existence of ennui and complete obedience since that's all he is.
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Apr 18, 2017 09:32
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cheetah7071 posted:Anyways I'm sure my fanfiction alternate ending is garbage too but I really don't like the actual ending. I took the Morgana statement to mean that the way humans perceive the world is reality - not literally it being the Momentos cognitive world. It felt appropriate in a dumb positive armchair philosophy kind of way and that seemed to be the theme of the roughly three hours of cutscene crap that was the ending sequence. The protagonist takes a sacrificial hit because the world is lovely, but by sacrificing himself it will be less lovely. Aside from it being way too goddamn late and me being tired of all the cut-to-all-your-links cutscenes, I didn't dislike the ending up to that point. He rebelled against a tainted world but that's gone now so it's up to good people to do good things. His sacrifice is all the more noble for it being required due to unjust reasons. Then the game says nuts to that and does the super happy ending.
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Apr 18, 2017 09:39
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Mailer posted:
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Apr 18, 2017 09:42
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Apr 18, 2017 09:44
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Apr 18, 2017 09:45
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hello this game has ate the last week of my life it is everything I wanted it to be and the cake knight rises is one of the dumbest things I've ever laughed at welp gotta go
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Apr 18, 2017 09:45
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Yes, yes!
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Apr 18, 2017 09:47
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So let me ask some specific questions about the final boss, Yaldabaoth. It will be incredibly anal, but as a writer myself I am completely dumbfounded by this character and how he works. 1. If he's a being comprised of the desires of the masses, why did the protagonists need to defeat him at all? Wouldn't it stand to reason that he would simply vanish or destroy himself once public opinion was against the god of public opinions existence? How can he be alive to be shot by Satanael if all he is just the manifested desires of the public at that point? If people wished for the holy grails destruction wouldn't it just destroy itself? 2. When the protagonists are disappearing due to the fact that they aren't recognized by society, what is preventing them from recognizing each other? You mean to tell me that nameless drifters though life are somehow known and continue to exist, but this group of people who are both news criminals AND human beings don't have enough support to stay manifested? Wouldn't the entire world just cease to exist immediately due to the presumed indifference to others? 3. If Yaldabaoth is a god born of looking away from injustice, why does he have such a high sense of justice? A god born of apathy would be apathetic, and reinforce mans desire to look away rather then confront injustice (Ameno Segeri is a perfect example of this). Instead we get a god who names the sins, creates a bunch of angels to enforce a sense of right and wrong, and deems both you and the masses guilty. He then actively confronts the problem, which was never a desire of the public if I understand this correctly. 4.To what level is Yaldabaoth autonomous, and why does he go about his master plan in the dumbest way possible? I assume Yaldaboath took over the velvet room and recruited Joker and Goro out of his own wishes, seeing as how the public has no knowledge of the velvet room or desired competing messiahs. If he wanted to grant the wishes of humanity he could have just fused Momentos and reality from the start, why did he put himself at risk by creating persona users? The public clearly didn't want persona users, so its something that falls solely on Yaldabaoth, which is nuts because it should be the last thing he would want to do. Izanami in P4 wanted to be proved wrong, Yaldabaoth clearly doesn't. 5. Is Japan the center of the universe? The notion of sloth and following societies rules that Yaldabaoth preaches as sinful is basically a symptom of collectivist cultures. He seems to destroy the entire world because Japan acts a certain way due to its culture and values. Assuming for a moment that he actually cares like he claims he does for the majority of the game, why would he take an online poll as definitive proof that mankind deserves destruction? He represents all of mankind's desires right, not just Japanese ones? Hawaii canonically exists, and they seemed pretty hyped about the Phantom Thieves. 6, Maybe Persona 5 is an art game and I'm too stupid to get it, but I have no idea what Yaldabaoth is arguing. Typically the clash between hero and villain is representative of a clashing of ideologies or values. The thesis of the villian and created antithesis of the protagonists do the Hegelian Dialectic and we end up with new wisdom. I have no idea what Yaldabaoths thesis is, even assuming that he is his own entity now completely separate from public opinion. He seems to be arguing that "Might makes right and I'm a God" behind a thin veil of justice or helping people, and I just don't get what the conflict against him signifies. Up until this point of the game the notion was along the lines of "Don't treat people like objects or they'll get pissed off and rebel against you, eventually ending you", but Yaldabaoth IS the people. Everything about this guy is inherently paradoxical; he shoots you full of lust and then judges you for being lustful. If he really is just an example of the penultimate stupid authority figure than I don't know what to say. Making something completely unreasonable and unjustifiable isn't a great thing to do for a final boss. I'm going insane over here. Someone send help. The Gorp fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 10:18
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The Gorp posted:So let me ask some specific questions about the final boss, Yaldabaoth. It will be incredibly anal, but as a writer myself I am completely dumbfounded by this character and how he works. I didn't find it that difficult. Yalda is basically claiming that he has the right to rule over humanity with an essentially authoritarian fascism because society has gotten to the point where people just want someone else to solve all their problems and not have to think about their own complicity in the society they suffer from. Tyrants are sometimes brought about by democratic means, but in this case Yaldster here decided to rig the game in his own favor by actively suppressing information in a weirdly overt way after Shido confessed, as well as screwing up the main character's Velvet Room experience. Considering he is based off of the demiurge, it would kind of make sense that he feels a strong sense of entitlement over humanity and perhaps is willing to skirt the rules in order to regain his station. As for the characters being unable to validate each other, of they are designated by Yaldaboath to be non-entities, then the cognition from a non-entity does nothing. He essentially directed the rest of society to just fade out anything that was uncomfortable and challenging, creating an epistemological bubble around the country.
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Apr 18, 2017 10:31
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But the game doesn't exist without him. Why rig the results and then blow poo poo up when you could just ignore the game entirely, and immeidatley fuse reality and momentos?
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Apr 18, 2017 10:50
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The Gorp posted:But the game doesn't exist without him. Why rig the results and then blow poo poo up when you could just ignore the game entirely, and immeidatley fuse reality and momentos? Because he enjoys watching the game. It is a way to keep him entertained as he watches you struggle whilst loving the fact that no matter what you do that in the end he will win anyway.
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Apr 18, 2017 10:56
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The Gorp posted:But the game doesn't exist without him. Why rig the results and then blow poo poo up when you could just ignore the game entirely, and immeidatley fuse reality and momentos? Yaldabaoth was a hypocrite who wanted the validation of winning the game as a justification for ruling humanity, but was willing to rig the results when there was a risk they wouldn't prove the point he wanted. He's basically just the nth degree of the unjust systems of the adult world that pop up over and over throughout the game.
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Apr 18, 2017 11:00
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I mean in question 6 I give way to that being an explanation, but that's a lazily written villain. I might just have to settle with that explanation for that point, but that still leaves 5 more things.
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Apr 18, 2017 11:03
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The Gorp posted:So let me ask some specific questions about the final boss, Yaldabaoth. It will be incredibly anal, but as a writer myself I am completely dumbfounded by this character and how he works. 1. He's not quite the desire of the masses, he's a being that grants the desires of the masses (which is a bit different). And it's pretty specifically the distorted desires of the masses, because the metaverse is all about distorted cognition. Once the people's wishes are taken away from him he cannot heal, once they fully turn against him he gets a bullet through the skull. The people going 'yeah rebellion! Go Phantom Thieves!' is basically what empowers the protagonists and does him in. 2. The Phantom Thieves disappear because it is easier for the toxic society that Yaldy gets power from and represents to continue living their lives in ignorance and peace if they just ignore things that challenge general structure and poo poo. Even when Shido comes clean about his poo poo they all don't care because they convinced themselves he will save them and fix everything, so they willingly ignore the evil stuff he's done because they believe him being in power is the ticket to an easy life where they don't need to do anything. What happens to the Phantom Thieves is kinda like that. It's not that the public doesn't care about the Phantom Thieves it is that they have deliberately and actively decided that they will ignore and avoid them. They will make themselves not believe anything that challenges or rebels against against society, or gets in the way of a comfortable and ignorant life, and it's this (combined with Yaldy just being real powerful, wow) which makes the crew disappear for a bit. 3. He has a high sense of justice because he believes granting the "wishes" of the masses is justice. And like I think it's a metaphor for the idea that maintaining the status quo and all that is the right thing to do. Since he is granting the beliefs of a society he basically is an embodiment of a weird broken sense of justice. No wonder he cares about it some much. 4. Yaldaboath seems largely autonomous and maybe he just put the 'game' together as a contest between two humans because he's supposed to be granting the wishes of humanity y'know? Also, he probably needed to infiltrate the Velvet Room because Joker was gonna get a visit anyway since Lavensa already had a list of jobs prepared and all. So getting involved in all that was better than doing nothing since Joker probably would have ended up confronting him regardless (he did give the power to Goro for some reason though, maybe he just was legitimately interested in how a crazy bastard would go about changing society, he has a vested interest after all). And, he doesn't seem to have any real power in the Velvet Room at all, so he can't really do anything to Joker there. Caroline and Justine handle basically everything, (they do the fusions and the register) he doesn't raise a hand against you when the truth comes out and he makes the attendants execute you rather than do it himself. 5. This game was made in Japan, takes place in Japan and is particularly talking about Japan particularly in the last arc of the game which goes heavy into people's opinions and societies thoughts on Japan's current political climate. It's something that resonates with people all around the world though so that's good. 6. Yaldaboath represents a toxic society. The game's big theme is basically rebellion, it's how all characters summon their Persona and poo poo. Every character is an outcast or has some disillusionment with the establishment. Dude is basically the lovely parts of society they've all been rebelling against for the entire game. He is totally in thematic opposition to the Phantom Thieves. Who gives a poo poo if he's "the people" or is granting their desires. Tricksters don't give a gently caress about the people. They're doing what they think is right, what's accepted be damned. The Phantom Thieves aren't doing this for the masses, the one time they really listen to their fans and look at a poll for who they should target it all goes to poo poo. The Phantom Thieves do this for their own justice. That's a lot of words for something that's nowhere near as complicated as all that and probably doesn't actually answer anything. But that's my thoughts on the matter. SyntheticPolygon fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 11:06
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The Gorp posted:I mean in question 6 I give way to that being an explanation, but that's a lazily written villain. I don't completely disagree with you, in that I think the other two ultimate antagonists in the "Modern Persona Trilogy" had more going on and were better set up. But I don't know if he's so much lazily written as simply written. Insofar as he's an obviously selfish power-mad hypocrite rear end in a top hat he's about as "lazy" as any of the other lesser antagonists in the game. I mean what is your issue with this boss that isn't also an issue with say Shido or Kamoshida? No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 11:14
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Thanks SyntheticPolygon. I understand what they were trying to go for now at least. They just missed the bullseye by a mile. Frankly the other antagonists were exceptional. I found myself sympathizing with Goro to a degree, and outright agreeing with the point Shido made. His methods were wrong but he basically has the mindset of a murderer phantom thief. We don't like people, we remove them - you change hearts and I kill people. We're trying to bring about social change in our own ways. Then Yaldabaoth happens..... The Gorp fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 11:17
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The final dungeon is really rough and absolutely handing my rear end. Is there something I'm missing or am I just bad? Also does it have any save points or safe rooms in it at all?
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Apr 18, 2017 11:34
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Sea Sponge Run posted:The final dungeon is really rough and absolutely handing my rear end. Is there something I'm missing or am I just bad? One at the halfway mark, one at the end. If you aren't ambushing everything and exploiting weaknesses, you're in for a Bad Time there.
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Apr 18, 2017 11:40
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The refresh spot also refills your bullets. Don't be afraid to Down Shot anything that looks scary.
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Apr 18, 2017 11:50
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ok i decided to play it in english since for some reason they decided not to subtitle a bunch of cutscene dialogue if its ambient, like news reports on the tv its a pretty good dub so far
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Apr 18, 2017 11:52
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The Gorp posted:5. Is Japan the center of the universe? The notion of sloth and following societies rules that Yaldabaoth preaches as sinful is basically a symptom of collectivist cultures. He seems to destroy the entire world because Japan acts a certain way due to its culture and values. Assuming for a moment that he actually cares like he claims he does for the majority of the game, why would he take an online poll as definitive proof that mankind deserves destruction? He represents all of mankind's desires right, not just Japanese ones? Hawaii canonically exists, and they seemed pretty hyped about the Phantom Thieves. I assume that in the reality of persona there's equally mystical horrible poo poo going on everywhere else as well, the games just happen to be about the stuff happening in japan. we live in the world without a velvet room therefore brexit, trump, etc
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Apr 18, 2017 12:30
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Just wrapped up my first playthrough, or at least all the proper fighting as near as I can guess. If there's another dungeon after this I'd be drat impressed, although at the same time it would actually kind of make sense because I was still only able to itemize one persona during the events of the big deal finale, and I feel like I ought to be able to do that as much as I wanted once we're in late-game "farm all you want to make personas and such" mode. There was even a perfectly valid story justification, in my view, for stuff like that to be turned back on. I also couldn't go back to the shops as far as I could tell, although admittedly I didn't really try, and I know you could do that in P4's super late game stuff. Final boss fight was much easier than I wanted it to be, even after making Michael I was still having a tough time against some of the standard fights before that. It was super interesting, just needed higher numbers sent my way and to take more of my big fat concentration/charge hits. I guess I can turn it up to merciless and hate my life a fair bit if I want to. Time to finish watching the story stuff and take a nice fat break before diving into NG+.
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Apr 18, 2017 12:30
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Ending spoiler. I find it appropriate that Joker hands himself in. It is a final act to try and help society begin to properly reform and by doing so he can ensure that those closest to him do not get hurt.
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Apr 18, 2017 12:33
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Best part of the game: when i threw Arsene into network fusion and got Mara And it just happened right this second.
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Apr 18, 2017 12:48
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Hunt11 posted:Ending spoiler. I find it appropriate that Joker hands himself in. It is a final act to try and help society begin to properly reform and by doing so he can ensure that those closest to him do not get hurt. I like that it subverts the traditional Persona sexytime Christmas date with your girlfriend figuring out you're keeping something from her and leaving. Sorry Ann, there was no other way...  .
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Apr 18, 2017 13:15
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I've gotten pancakes 3 days in a row for breakfast, thanks Goro Akechi
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Apr 18, 2017 13:16
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I like the s links a lot this time I dig sojiro so far
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Apr 18, 2017 13:24
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I like that it subverts the traditional Persona sexytime Christmas date with your girlfriend figuring out you're keeping something from her and leaving. More ending spoilers I did find it annoying that MC won't even tell Makoto the truth in that scene, even though she's proven repeatedly that she could have dealt with it. Incidentally, is Makoto (along with Futaba) always the first one at the cafe the next morning or does it depend on your evening choice?
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Apr 18, 2017 13:23
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NRVNQSR posted:More ending spoilers I did find it annoying that MC won't even tell Makoto the truth in that scene, even though she's proven repeatedly that she could have dealt with it. Incidentally, is Makoto (along with Futaba) always the first one at the cafe the next morning or does it depend on your evening choice? Yup she was there for me too. Also it's not just about the girlfriend, they'd tell the rest of the group and you don't want to worry them all  .
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Apr 18, 2017 13:28
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ZenVulgarity posted:I like the s links a lot this time Sojiro's is extremely good. Maybe my favourite.
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Apr 18, 2017 13:34
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Since we're talking endgame spoilers I have a pair of questions: When exactly was the Velvet Room hijacked by Yaldabaoth? Was it MC's first day in Tokyo? By the time the MC arrives in Tokyo there had been already at least 7 psychotic shutdown cases, presumably perpetrated by Akechi. And since he has the Wild Card too he presumably visited the Velvet Room? Maybe I didn't read into it enough but when Sae bails the MC out of juvie she comments that it must have been one hell of a coincidence that the leader of the Phantom Thieves just happened to be a guy Shido pushed around. The MC comments internally that yeah, it was one hell of a coincidence. Is this comment supposed to go anywhere? I was expecting a P4-like true end fakeout but it didn't come. So was it truly a coincidence?
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Apr 18, 2017 14:08
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Apr 18, 2017 14:23
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The Gorp posted:But the game doesn't exist without him. Why rig the results and then blow poo poo up when you could just ignore the game entirely, and immeidatley fuse reality and momentos? I believe that the implication is that the "game" he is playing is also a means for you to return rebellious Shadows to his care. He needs the Phantom Thieves to win, because as he sees it, they represent exactly what he does: an easy solution to humanity's problems. Setting them up, only to knock them down, successfully turns the world cynical enough for him to seize control. I do not believe he has the capacity to do what he does at the end of the game until you have gone through the game proper. It's also entirely possible that He is doing what you say, it just takes a long time. It doesn't seem to me that Mementos could be fused at any time, I suspect it's been fusing slowly with the real world for some time, which is what has allowed Palaces to form in the first place. The suggestion is even that the Metaverse has only relatively recently come into existence, and would be explained as a state of being in the periphery of Mementos, the world of unconscious thought, and Earth, the world of matter, merging. In that sense, Palaces and the Velvet Room are quite similar, aren't they? Both appear when mankind's subsconcious has grown too powerful, and both take on forms that reflect their guests. 8-Bit Scholar fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 14:25
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SettingSun posted:Since we're talking endgame spoilers I have a pair of questions: Igor says that it had been a long time since he'd been in the Velvet Room when he finally returns, so I presume quite a long time ago. I also think its interesting to look back on how starting with P3 the Velvet Room started moving, first as an elevator and then a limo instead of a room like it was originally. Given what's happened by P5 it might very well have been trying to flee.
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Apr 18, 2017 14:27
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On the one hand: I have three whole Palaces left! On the other hand: I only have three Palaces left oh no Also https://twitter.com/YennerCT/status/853997083992489987
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Apr 18, 2017 14:28
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SettingSun posted:Since we're talking endgame spoilers I have a pair of questions: It starts some time before (is Wakaba is the first shutdown victim? So around that time) as yeah Akechi is part of the game Yalba is playing. And that comment is just kind of emphasizing the Joker's powerful fate that's commented on throughout.
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Apr 18, 2017 14:32
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I just started playing, and when I merged Arsene for the first time he said some dialogue but I accidentally skipped it because I thought it was a normal fusing animation. Anyone remember the gist of what he says?
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