Star Citizen: Death of a Space Thread?

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AP: Jul 12, 2004; One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them; Grimey Drawer

ManofManyAliases posted:

Honestly, whoever gave me that avatar did a 10/10 job.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RM7Vxsh9mk

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:02

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# ? May 16, 2024 21:03

AutismVaccine: Feb 26, 2017; SPECIAL NEEDS
SQUAD

DREAMS

[�]FTMESnew user/low karma 97 Punkte vor 17 Stunden

Flying into atmo with all wings blown off/maneuvering thrusters damaged and seeing if that does anything. Such as having the gravity pull me to my death. Starfarer tumbling out of control would be incredible.
--------------

Looking forward to the meltdowns when people are going to be teleported via a loading screen into the makos.
I am loving it.

[�]Magdalornew user/low karma 9 Punkte vor 15 Stunden

I kinda find turbulence in atmo-entry exciting, for some reason ... I would love really FEEL that I am entering an atmosphere, and if CIG manage to take this feeling at their level of quality, that would be pretty badass ! ^
----------------

No worry, you shall receive.

AutismVaccine fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Apr 18, 2017

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:03

Beet Wagon: Oct 19, 2015

Someone nearing self-awareness on /r/dereksmart? Can't have that! Better fire off a quick Trump comparison

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:21

Mirificus: Oct 29, 2004; Kings need not raise their voices to be heard

Mirificus posted:

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:24

TrustmeImLegit: Jan 14, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Booourns posted:

From an outside view, the way you guys invoke FYAD as a boogeyman is exactly the same as the way SC people do it with derek smart

thanks abe

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:26

D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

XK posted:

More evidence that not enough people are downloading to make the delta patcher worth it.

Who was doing metrics on Star Marine play? I want an update.

That would be boviscopophobic. He recently said that an average of 26 people were playing it with the latest 2.6.3 patch

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:28

D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

XK posted:

I like the analogy I saw someone use recently. If you personally promise someone something, then reneg and claim you had no actual contract, that's comparable to making official statements, then reneging because you never explicitly promised.

Derek, I saw you use that cook/hamburger analogy. Please rephrase it in the future as, "I don't have to be a baker to tell you that your cake sucks." Your use of not having to be a cook to claim a hamburger isn't cooked doesn't work nearly as well.

Duly noted :grin:

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:30

XK: Jul 9, 2001; Star Citizen is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it's fidelity when you look out your window or when you watch youtube

D_Smart posted:

an average of 26 people were playing it with the latest 2.6.3 patch

Good poo poo.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:30

D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

Mirificus posted:

Those guys are broken.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:33

boviscopophobic: Feb 5, 2016

XK posted:

Good poo poo.

There were 30-something concurrent players in Star Marine on average (I think, going by memory) in the first week of 2.6.3, and about 42 last week. So Star Marine is looking healthy!

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:34

XK: Jul 9, 2001; Star Citizen is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it's fidelity when you look out your window or when you watch youtube

D_Smart posted:

Those guys are broken.

Not knowing that "!=" means "not equal" makes it clear he doesn't understand software development.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:35

WarpDogs: May 1, 2009; I'm just a normal, functioning member of the human race, and there's no way anyone can prove otherwise.

I'm here to defend MoMA because I think it leads to an interesting conversation about SC itself.

He's right about UI being done first in Agile. The catch is that for most non-game software, UI is synonymous with "frontend", a catch-all term for everything except the backend; the "UI" of Facebook is everything you see and do at https://www.facebook.com

You do this because the backend is way more expensive to create (and more importantly, modify) than the frontend - despite the front being all the users see or care about

If you want to verify that you have a good idea, or if you want to see if you're meeting a requirement, you should always first make a frontend prototype and iterate over it with your stakeholders and product owners before you ever touch the backend

Of course, UI means something different to games, as others have pointed out, but I'd argue the concept is still sound - focus on the frontend before the backend. In this way, Star Citizen, with its faked physics and airlock doors and what have you, can actually be defensible..

...except...

...nothing about CGI is Agile. They don't do iteration demos every 1-2 weeks. They don't incorporate user feedback. They don't iterate on anything period. Maybe incompetence or complacency got in the way. Maybe it actually is a scam.

Whatever the case, the most interesting thing to me is that you can tell that they really did intend to be agile, to do games development differently. It's something this industry desperately needs!

Another poster used EU4 as an example, which is actually kind of ironic. Paradox games are notorious for being at best boring at launch, and at worst confusing and unplayable. It always takes 2-3 DLC packs before it's polished and ready for consumers.

In this way, Paradox is iterating and incorporating user feedback to fix all the things that they ignored when they were developing behind closed doors, but they charge you $20 a pop for it months after they charged you $60 at launch. That's bullshit - accepted bullshit by their community, myself included - but bullshit none the less.

That type of iterative work should not take months or years to produce, and it should not cost money, but that's just where this industry is right now. The game industry has a lot to learn from enterprise software, but so long as the consumers and whales of the world reward companies like CGI for utterly failing at doing things differently...then I'm not sure change will ever happen

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:36

Mirificus: Oct 29, 2004; Kings need not raise their voices to be heard

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:36

D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

Mirificus posted:

LOL!! Oh the irony

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:39

Lladre: Jun 28, 2011; Soiled Meat

TrustmeImLegit posted:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/the-pledge

You�ve pledged your money to earn your Citizenship.

Now it�s our turn.

We, the Star Citizen team at Cloud Imperium, hereby promise to deliver the game you expect. You, the tens of thousands of pledgers, have allowed us to cut out the big publisher and build the game on our terms. To let us focus on quality free of the pressure to deliver by a certain financial quarter. To nurture a new original IP. To put fun ahead of shareholder profits.

We, the Developer, intend to treat you with the same respect we would give a publisher. You will receive regular updates about the progress of the game. We will do a show and tell for each major milestone. Your voice will be heard and represented in our development docs and our feature wish list. You will see art and video and learn about how we intend to implement gameplay mechanics well before the rest of the world. The website will be updated and the community will be maintained. Though the limitations of technology may slow us, we will always do the best for you: if it breaks, we will fix it.

There may be delays and there may be changes; we recognize that such things are inevitable and would be lying to you if we claimed otherwise. But when this happens, we will treat you with the respect you deserve rather than spending your money on public relations. When we need to change a mechanic or alter something you believe should be in the game, we will tell you exactly why.

Your support over the past month has been incredible. You�ve done your part, and we will now do our utmost to live up to your expectations. We will build you the game you are dreaming about.

Signed,
Chris Roberts and the Cloud Imperium Team

That is not the original pledge. The original pledge had verbiage on how they would use every dollar towards development. This is a watered down facsimile of the pledge.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:39

Hav: Dec 11, 2009; Fun Shoe

Booourns posted:

From an outside view, the way you guys invoke FYAD as a boogeyman is exactly the same as the way SC people do it with derek smart

Yes. This is the joke. We have thus far avoided creating an entire subreddit dedicated to tracking FYAD because our arms are short and unable to reach the controls.

Colostomy Bag posted:

The only slack embedded in the schedule is Roberts.

Yeah, I'm kinda interested in enumerating the overrun on their dreams. Software time estimation _is_ hard, and twenty years of experience has led to 'think of a number, double it and add 10%, then use the 10% to negotiate'. It gets easier once you've broken things down into narratives and stories, but still...see any indication of a sprint in the gannt chart? If they're breaking tasks into narratives, there's a whole ball of fun around integration.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:40

Hav: Dec 11, 2009; Fun Shoe

SirPenguin posted:

...nothing about CGI is Agile. They don't do iteration demos every 1-2 weeks. They don't incorporate user feedback. They don't iterate on anything period. Maybe incompetence or complacency got in the way. Maybe it actually is a scam.

Nice defense there.

Taking your example of 'facebook', the UI was done years ago. The interesting work came with HHVM and scaling out the dumb interface that wasn't designed so much as it was thrown together in a dorm room. These days you aren't bothering with the UI as much as the representation of the data, in n-tier terms, you start with the model. In game terms, you start with the loop. When you're producing a website, you do start with the UI/UX portion, but that's NOT _software development_ and is usually the loving thing that's on the table before vertical slices are built.

90% of the technical work behind SC will be in non-UI elements; check the picture that pretends to be a Gannt chart and look at the network/backend work; 194 days. That fits to some of the core tech (look at the 'container streaming' work).

Take another step sideways and look at when the work started according to the schedule, and it looks like everyone _but_ the ship guys started work on April 1st. Seriously, look at it. What's happened to this point, and why could it take place without streaming to the client, serializing the data and the server migration?

I'm fairly certain that they've done a reset. How/Why is the interesting thing.

SirPenguin posted:

Another poster used EU4 as an example, which is actually kind of ironic. Paradox games are notorious for being at best boring at launch, and at worst confusing and unplayable. It always takes 2-3 DLC packs before it's polished and ready for consumers.

In this way, Paradox is iterating and incorporating user feedback to fix all the things that they ignored when they were developing behind closed doors, but they charge you $20 a pop for it months after they charged you $60 at launch. That's bullshit - accepted bullshit by their community, myself included - but bullshit none the less.

I had a huge fight with Fred Wester over this after the Sword of the Stars II debacle, and they've actually brushed up their act quite seriously since that and 'Gettysburg: Armoured Warfare'. Cities Skylines and Stellaris were great releases compared with the bad old days, although CKII still crashes on me.

Stellaris was great on release, though, and I will fight people. What Kerberos did was far more egregious and Mecron still blames everyone else for what appears to be 'alienating your own developers halfway through writing a game' that led to Sword of the Stars II being released unfinished.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:56

Ayn Marx: Dec 21, 2012

Booourns posted:

From an outside view, the way you guys invoke FYAD as a boogeyman is exactly the same as the way SC people do it with derek smart

Lmao
Sad but true

# ? Apr 18, 2017 17:57

Tijuana Bibliophile: Dec 30, 2008; Scratchmo

Lotta outside views around here

# ? Apr 18, 2017 18:15

Sandweed: Sep 7, 2006; All your friends are me.

Booourns posted:

From an outside view, the way you guys invoke FYAD as a boogeyman is exactly the same as the way SC people do it with derek smart

We also make up lovely names for Roberts all the time and then get mad when citizens make up mean nicknames for uncle Derek.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 18:16

Chin: Dec 12, 2005; GET LOST 2013
-RALPH

They might not be from FYAD but there are definitely some recognizable names that pop in to lazily concern troll every month or so. Generally the type who think an ironic "lmbo" is the height of comedy.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 18:17

TrustmeImLegit: Jan 14, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Sandweed posted:

We also make up lovely names for Roberts all the time and then get mad when citizens make up mean nicknames for uncle Derek.

We do?

# ? Apr 18, 2017 18:19

his nibs: Feb 27, 2016; Welcome to the
Dream Factory; Grimey Drawer

Sandweed posted:

We also make up lovely names for Roberts all the time and then get mad when citizens make up mean nicknames for uncle Derek.

I dunno Doofus Smeg has a certain ring to it

# ? Apr 18, 2017 18:21

XK: Jul 9, 2001; Star Citizen is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it's fidelity when you look out your window or when you watch youtube

Tijuana Bibliophile posted:

Lotta outside views around here

# ? Apr 18, 2017 18:24

Dark Off: Aug 14, 2015

Booourns posted:

From an outside view, the way you guys invoke FYAD as a boogeyman is exactly the same as the way SC people do it with derek smart

I agree that some people have gotten too involved with the project.
What started as comedy is now serious business to some people here. Because frankly they are pissed that they invested a lot of money into this
Just imagine if you had invested 1k on trumps wall project, with promises of infinitive returns. People will be pissed if that wall doesnt get build.
And that is dumb. Instead people should be laughing at the whole idea of building a border wall to mexico, because its simply ludicrous idea. (alternatively it would be more comedy if that wall gets build)
And its perfectly okay to laugh at people taking this project too seriously. Its also okay to laugh at arf's posts about getting doxed by sc thread, without being able to provide where he was doxed :allears:

The reality is that this thread has attracted a lot of people into SA. And frankly some of them should :lurkmore:

especially outside of star citizen thread to see what kind of place SA is. And some people will end up being bad posters anyways,
for example B of inforedux https://brorlandi.github.io/StarWarsIntroCreator/#!/KGfPoSS6qvf_19n6b-S

Frankly I will miss this thread once SC collapses, because how bizarre the whole star citizen project was. Its also shame that the thread generated a lot of noise during its lifetime because it has made catching up to it pretty much impossible.
there has been tons of good stuff that has happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXJZbPI5nKE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeVuMMf-jyQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0RvCN3gYJA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7VUUBx5lKU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWq8ynUq7wM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6UpYsOwlGY

2017 has been quite silent year in terms of CIG gently caress up's and personally i would just close the thread down, and reopen it during june.
Because frankly silence of CIG is just as bad for thread as it is for CIG.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 18:35

thatguy: Feb 5, 2003

Booourns posted:

From an outside view, the way you guys invoke FYAD as a boogeyman is exactly the same as the way SC people do it with derek smart

I was actually going to put your name instead of FYAD but I didn't want to call you out directly. I got a good laugh when you responded so quickly.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 18:37

ManofManyAliases: Mar 21, 2016; ToastOfManySmarts

Can't post for 3 hours!

Dark Off posted:

I agree that some people have gotten too involved with the project.
What started as comedy is now serious business to some people here. Because frankly they are pissed that they invested a lot of money into this
Just imagine if you had invested 1k on trumps wall project, with promises of infinitive returns. People will be pissed if that wall doesnt get build.
And that is dumb. Instead people should be laughing at the whole idea of building a border wall to mexico, because its simply ludicrous idea. (alternatively it would be more comedy if that wall gets build)
And its perfectly okay to laugh at people taking this project too seriously. Its also okay to laugh at arf's posts about getting doxed by sc thread, without being able to provide where he was doxed

The reality is that this thread has attracted a lot of people into SA. And frankly some of them should especially outside of star citizen thread to see what kind of place SA is. And some people will end up being bad posters anyways,
for example B of inforedux https://brorlandi.github.io/StarWarsIntroCreator/#!/KGfPoSS6qvf_19n6b-S

Frankly I will miss this thread once SC collapses, because how bizarre the whole star citizen project was. Its also shame that the thread generated a lot of noise during its lifetime because it has made catching up to it pretty much impossible.
there has been tons of good stuff that has happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXJZbPI5nKE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeVuMMf-jyQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0RvCN3gYJA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7VUUBx5lKU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWq8ynUq7wM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6UpYsOwlGY

2017 has been quite silent year in terms of CIG gently caress up's and personally i would just close the thread down, and reopen it during june.
Because frankly silence of CIG is just as bad for thread as it is for CIG.

You guys got me out of this whole thing, and I think that was a pretty good deal.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 18:42

Hav: Dec 11, 2009; Fun Shoe

Dark Off posted:

And its perfectly okay to laugh at people taking this project too seriously. Its also okay to laugh at arf's posts about getting doxed by sc thread, without being able to provide where he was doxed

So theoretically, the citizen that gets overly invested and has something bad happen to them is just more comedy?

Isn't this what FYAD warns you about?

Aren't we actually facing a time when having some relationship to the 'truth' is actually important, or is it just grist for the giggle mill when the dumber elements of society pratfall financially?

# ? Apr 18, 2017 18:54

Theotus: Nov 8, 2014

Yeah, no.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 18:54

Strangler 42: Jan 8, 2007; SHAVE IT ALL OFF
ALL OF IT

Dark Off posted:

2017 has been quite silent year in terms of CIG gently caress up's and personally i would just close the thread down, and reopen it during june.
Because frankly silence of CIG is just as bad for thread as it is for CIG.

I think goons look forward to CIG releases more than the backers do. They've probably learned to expect to be disappointed by now. We're looking for fresh content to mock. It's in CIG's best interest to not release anything and just keep the gravy train rolling for as long as possible.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 18:57

TheAgent: Feb 16, 2002; The call is coming from inside Dr. House; Grimey Drawer

I just really want to play with pgabz in 3.0

# ? Apr 18, 2017 18:58

TheAgent: Feb 16, 2002; The call is coming from inside Dr. House; Grimey Drawer

and I wanna nab a pack of citcon tix this year so titanic and rasloasdkksov and whoever else can come get drunk and talk about spaceships

# ? Apr 18, 2017 18:59

Dark Off: Aug 14, 2015

its a comedy first. But it does have parts in it that are truly tragic. For example the guy that sold his farm to finance his ship buying addiction.
But you cant stop idiots from being idiots. So its just better to relax and laugh at stupidy.
And offer some good advices like getting a refund.

quote:

"Chris in a well" is an adaptation of the "Goon in a well" apologue well known in GBS and E/N to describe goons posting about their problem who refuse to take good advice. In the adaptation, goons offer advice in futility to executive producer Chris Roberts.

Chris: "Help! HELP! Star Citizen is going nowhere!"
Goons1-4: "Stop making promises! Fire the ship artists and hire some gameplay developers!"
Chris: "I'm thinking I should make more promises... should I sell a new concept ship too?"
Goon5: "NO! I have worked on big games before, scope creep is a real thing that should be avoided."
Goons6-8: "We're refunding our space chariots! Stop selling dreams and make the game!"
dsmart: "I've written an entire blog post about refunds!"
Chris: "I can see your refunds and blog post, but I don't want to acknowledge problems... should I sell a new concept?"
Goon10: "No! If you keep selling dreams, you'll be upside-down on progress, and then you'll be proper hosed."
Chris: "I started a new video series and CIG hasn't gone bankrupt yet. I'm gonna record more mo-cap..."
Goons11-18: "No! Stop selling jpegs! Focus on making the game!"
Chris: "Guys, Star Citizen is seriously not ready for Citcon! Help! HELP!"
Goon19: "I was stuck in development hell once. It took me two years, but I managed to build a working game by switching engines to something better suited to the gameplay we wanted. I'm e-mailing you the github link, design documents, and an assortment of engine pro/con charts."
Goon20: "I've engineered a funding tracker that shows your current trajectory. If you keep selling concept ships, you'll earn less and less, while alienating even more of your customers!"
Chris: "Thanks for your help, guys. I'm gonna keep selling dreams and jpegs. I'll do one more mo-cap session and just show that at Citcon."
Goons1-20 piss on Star Citizen
Goon21: "Guys, seriously... call your parents."
MoMA: "Yeah, like any of you guys have even have parents, you neckbearded, EVE-addicted shut-ins."

# ? Apr 18, 2017 18:59

D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

Lladre posted:

That is not the original pledge. The original pledge had verbiage on how they would use every dollar towards development. This is a watered down facsimile of the pledge.

No, it's the original pledge that was linked to from here:

https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/12815-The-Pledge-And-Grace-Period

And this is the original.

The comment about using the money for development does not - and never did - appear in The Pledge or the ToS. It only ever appeared here: Letter from the Chairman - July 20, 2015

quote:

"This is all being made possible by your enthusiasm and support. As we promised since the start of the campaign, we invest every dollar raised into the game. Anyone with knowledge about game development can assess our spending based on the information we share every month. It speaks for itself that from the outset our TOS provides for an accounting to be published if we ever had to stop development before delivering. With the progress and the funds we�ve raised this is no longer an issue, but quite obviously we wouldn�t have provided for this clause, if we weren�t using your funds very carefully for the development of Star Citizen."

D_Smart fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Apr 18, 2017

# ? Apr 18, 2017 19:00

peter gabriel: Nov 8, 2011; Hello Commandos

ManofManyAliases posted:

You guys got me out of this whole thing, and I think that was a pretty good deal.

Your fashion tips alone have been worth it imo

# ? Apr 18, 2017 19:02

D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

ManofManyAliases posted:

You guys got me out of this whole thing, and I think that was a pretty good deal.

WAIT!?!?! Are you out? Shirley you jest!!

# ? Apr 18, 2017 19:03

Hav: Dec 11, 2009; Fun Shoe

peter gabriel posted:

Your fashion tips alone have been worth it imo

It's the only content of note other than the assurances that everything is fine, this is fine, development is going great and indicating intimacy.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 19:05

ManofManyAliases: Mar 21, 2016; ToastOfManySmarts

Can't post for 3 hours!

D_Smart posted:

WAIT!?!?! Are you out? Shirley you jest!!

I am serious[ly not out]. And don't call me Shirley.

edit: You had the wrong emphasis there. You got me out, as in a product of the situation.

# ? Apr 18, 2017 19:06

Beet Wagon: Oct 19, 2015

D_Smart posted:

WAIT!?!?! Are you out? Shirley you jest!!

I think he means we got him out of the tradeoff of having the thread open during the "lean" times.

Chin posted:

They might not be from FYAD but there are definitely some recognizable names that pop in to lazily concern troll every month or so. Generally the type who think an ironic "lmbo" is the height of comedy.

lmbo

# ? Apr 18, 2017 19:06

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# ? May 16, 2024 21:03

HycoCam: Jul 14, 2016; You should have backed Transverse!

**wooooshhh****

# ? Apr 18, 2017 19:08

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > Star Citizen: Death of a Space Thread?

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