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Yeah that's a poo poo attitude.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:00
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Why is that funny? Even if I like a book, there's not much point in getting invested into it if it's going to last six issues and not even get out of the starting blocks. I get its a self-fulfilling prophecy, but I'm also not the whole market. Most people seem to read a book because it's got their favorite characters in it, which seems about as non-sensible as you can get.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:01
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X-O posted:Yeah that's a poo poo attitude. Again, why? If I have a budget and can get X number of books, wouldn't it make sense to get the ones that are actually going somewhere? I'm not saying buy the most popular stuff, but if you're making a decision between say Ms. Marvel and Unstoppable Wasp, going with the latter just seems like a bad bet.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:05
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rkajdi posted:Most people seem to read a book because it's got their favorite characters in it, which seems about as non-sensible as you can get. Reading things you like is the most sensible thing anyone can do.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:05
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rkajdi posted:Why is that funny? Even if I like a book, there's not much point in getting invested into it if it's going to last six issues and not even get out of the starting blocks. I get its a self-fulfilling prophecy, but I'm also not the whole market. Most people seem to read a book because it's got their favorite characters in it, which seems about as non-sensible as you can get. You're not the whole market, but you're also contributing to the problem.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:06
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howe_sam posted:Reading things you like is the most sensible thing anyone can do. Nah man, you should only read books that matter due to sales. Don't waste time on the good stuff.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:07
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I only get comics from Loot Crate, it's the safest way to know what's good.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:08
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rkajdi posted:Again, why? If I have a budget and can get X number of books, wouldn't it make sense to get the ones that are actually going somewhere? I'm not saying buy the most popular stuff, but if you're making a decision between say Ms. Marvel and Unstoppable Wasp, going with the latter just seems like a bad bet. You're attitude is why we won't have Hellcat anymore. Full disclosure, bought the first issue of Hellcat, loved it, then didn't buy anymore issues, for basically the same reason you don't buy Unstoppable Wasp.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:08
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You silly people. Don't waste time with books you like, that only leads to enjoying things. And we can't have that.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:10
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I looked up what sold the best last month and was about to make some dumb snarky post about Iron Fist #1 blowing the floor out of stuff like Suoerman, Suoer Sons, Ultimates 2, Paper Girls, and plenty of other fantastic books when I noticed X-O Manowar was the twelfth highest selling book last month. That was the first Valiant book I ever bought, and I loved it, so I'm happy enough seeing it did so well that I don't even feel like making that mean-spirited post anymore.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:12
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Roth posted:I looked up what sold the best last month and was about to make some dumb snarky post about Iron Fist #1 blowing the floor out of stuff like Suoerman, Suoer Sons, Ultimates 2, Paper Girls, and plenty of other fantastic books when I noticed X-O Manowar was the twelfth highest selling book last month. I think the thing to get from this post is for everyone to buy more valiant books, unless its shadowman.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:15
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rkajdi posted:Why is that funny? Even if I like a book, there's not much point in getting invested into it if it's going to last six issues and not even get out of the starting blocks. I get its a self-fulfilling prophecy, but I'm also not the whole market. Most people seem to read a book because it's got their favorite characters in it, which seems about as non-sensible as you can get. Do you completely ignore miniseries because they're only four or six issues or whatever? EDIT: I actually decided to keep reading Hellcat through to the end since I was going to drop it but with three issues left, may as well finish it out.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:15
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To be clear, so long as the story is good, I'm happy that I got to read it, even if it gets cancelled. Sometimes the things you like just aren't popular enough to get the sales needed and get cancelled. Sometimes a book that's just bad will get to go on forever and ever because of reasons and that's just how life goes. I like to be happy that the company even put out the book in the first place. Blaming the consumer for not purchasing the book is dumb, because no business is entitled to your money, and blaming the company for cancelling it when the sales weren't doing well is also pretty dumb. They're a business.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:20
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Endless Mike posted:Personally, I read books by creators I like, and like to try new things. If Star-Lord by Chip Zdarsky only lasts six issues, I'm perfectly satisfied if those are six good issues. Any writer worth their while can put together a good six-issue story that can be expanded upon if their book ends up being popular. Not everything needs to be an epic spanning multiple years and titles. Eh, a 6 issue mini isn't the same as a series that got cancelled 6 issues in. Hell for some of these marginal characters I wish they would just announce them as minis and run longer with them if they sell well. Nova was the only marvel book on my pull but I didn't think it was that great. My kid liked it and the art was nice. Nothing Marvel's done lately really wows me.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:25
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rkajdi posted:Why is that funny? Even if I like a book, there's not much point in getting invested into it if it's going to last six issues and not even get out of the starting blocks. I get its a self-fulfilling prophecy, but I'm also not the whole market. Most people seem to read a book because it's got their favorite characters in it, which seems about as non-sensible as you can get.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:55
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rkajdi posted:Really? I was reading sales charts at the time, and OYL triggered a a big reduction in sales on almost every book. Here's a month-to-month DC charts from Feb 2007, so you can see how OYL hollowed out books (see Supergirl and Hawkgirl for the worst), or at best had no effect. "Yup, because 4 months of no book is enough to really de-rail the book and kill its sales in lots of cases. See what happened with OYL back in the day for DC." 1) One Year Later had zero issues of "no book". 2) Supergirl's sales went off of a cliff for a number of reasons: it was a poorly received comic in general, there was a two month gap between the second and third issues, then another two month gap between the third and fourth, and then the fifth one shipped out the same month as the fourth and hastily wrapped up the Loeb/Churchill run that was all supposed to have taken place before Infinite Crisis. Once Supergirl did the ONE YEAR LATER thing it was already a couple of months behind most of the other OYL books and had the following creative lineup for the issues afterwards: #6: Greg Rucka/Ed Benes #7: Greg Rucka & Joe Kelly/Ian Churchill #8: Joe Kelly/Ron Adrian #9-10: Joe Kelly/Ian Churchill #11: Joe Kelly/Joe Benitez #12: Palmiotti/Grey/Amanda Conner #13-14: Joe Kelly/Ian Churchill So in the timeframe of the sale chart you posted, it went through a high profile launch, bad reviews, long delays, an abrupt creative team shift, a SECOND abrupt creative team shift leading to throwing out the elevator pitch for the OYL relaunch, more delays, fill-in artists, a full-on fill-in issue, and still hadn't found a consistent creative team or storyline a year afterwards (Churchill's last issue was 14, Kelly limped along until issue 19). This is a book whose sales fell off of a cliff, though I'm struggling to see what any of this has to do with One Year Later. Hawkgirl was a book that went from being a series that wasn't selling very well by one creative team to a book with an entirely new lead that also didn't sell very well under a new creative team. Why is this One Year Later's fault? Is the fact that Hulk turned into Red She-Hulk at Marvel external from any Big Linewide Event and continued not to sell well somehow inherently different? (It was still Jeff Parker, so maybe?) In general books' sales decline month to month unless there's a big shake-up like a relaunch or a new creative team. Looking at the sales charts you linked: JSA was relaunched and up 55% Batman got a new creative team and despite a weird fill-in arc was up 25% Wonder Woman was relaunched with a new creative team and despite delays was up 52.9% Action Comics got a new creative team and even though it was delayed to hell was up 25% Green Lantern didn't get a new creative team or relaunch and was down 30% etc. quote:OYL was in May 2006, so you can see it not help out much. I thought this was common knowledge-- DC squandered any momentum they had out of Infinite Crisis, and really never did all that well again sales-wise until New 52. In addition to doing [TIME PERIOD] LATER, DC in 2007 was a really poorly run company. It had rampant delays and weird fill-ins on their publishing schedule, many of the "new directions" for books in the One Year Later era were bad books with bad creative teams, their relationship with comic shops, the press, their staff, fans at conventions and online, pretty much across the board were not good. These things almost certainly affected sales of their books and general sentiment towards their comics. I don't think it was because they did a timejump in their universe, but that seemed to be what you were suggesting. This is like saying that no one shows reruns of the Cosby Show anymore because shows with black families who have stairs in their living room are ratings poison, so Black-ish had better watch out how they shoot their foyer. I thought it was common knowledge there was something that turned people against Bill Cosby. Can we agree it was the stairs in the Huxtable residence?
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Apr 19, 2017 03:00
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Comics are expensive, so I buy them on sale only. I get the creator stance on that but a subscription would really hurt my wallet.
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Apr 19, 2017 03:12
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Hey I just want to let everyone know that Secret Empire #0 is at least as good as Civil War II #0.
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Apr 19, 2017 03:12
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rkajdi posted:Why is that funny? Even if I like a book, there's not much point in getting invested into it if it's going to last six issues and not even get out of the starting blocks. I get its a self-fulfilling prophecy, but I'm also not the whole market. Most people seem to read a book because it's got their favorite characters in it, which seems about as non-sensible as you can get. what the gently caress
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Apr 19, 2017 03:42
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To be fair, I read a couple of issues of Champions because it had my favorite characters in it and that was definitely one of the least sensible decisions I made that year.
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Apr 19, 2017 03:53
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You should absolutely not read a book just because it has your favorite characters in it. If that was the case I would have had to read Countdown.
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Apr 19, 2017 03:55
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SilverSupernova posted:To be fair, I read a couple of issues of Champions because it had my favorite characters in it and that was definitely one of the least sensible decisions I made that year.
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Apr 19, 2017 04:02
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Endless Mike posted:I did because it both had some of my favorite characters and was written by a writer I generally like. I'll check out pretty much anything Mark Waid does. Not everything is a winner, but I still think he hits way more often than misses. I remember seeing him at Boston Comic con and talking to him about how great his impulse was and he said that champions was going to be in the same vein. I am still reading it, but when I do a cut in my reading list its getting the boot unless it turns around a lot.
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Apr 19, 2017 04:06
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Onmi posted:You should absolutely not read a book just because it has your favorite characters in it. If that was the case I would have had to read Countdown. I'm glad someone besides me is a Forerunner fan aka "Fanrunner"
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Apr 19, 2017 05:01
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X-O posted:I saw it coming, but still sucks to see it official that Nova is cancelled. Jeff Loveness books are just too good for this world. I literally just started reading this. It's...it's all my fault.  Roth posted:Edit - I'm writing my research paper for a History seminar focusing on race/ethnicity in Marvel comics from 1975 to 1985 if anybody is interested in reading that, I'll have a rough draft done by Friday. Yes please! JordanKai fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 06:43
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Rhyno posted:Hey I just want to let everyone know that Secret Empire #0 is at least as good as Civil War II #0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQiGMJNje-Q
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Apr 19, 2017 09:12
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man i really hope unstoppable wasp doesn't get cancelled 
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Apr 19, 2017 09:13
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Lovechop posted:man i really hope unstoppable wasp doesn't get cancelled We both know it's going to.
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Apr 19, 2017 09:14
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redbackground posted:Just wanted to chime in to laugh at this post. Again, why? Sticking around reading your favorite characters is how we get poo poo like the cattle who buys Spider-man regardless of who writes it because it's Peter Parker. You buy for the creators, because quite frankly Spider-man written by some poo poo creators might as well not be Spider-man. Let's use a real world example I have here. My (now deceased) half-brother bought every issues of Fantastic Four, year in and out. Apparently, this is something he did since the early 80s. Now, he got some good runs in there (Simonson, Hickman) some okay stuff (Byrne, Waid) but also a pile of dreck that got put out because you had to have a writer do F4 and put a book out. Here I'm talking like Millar, Robinson, DeFalco, later Claremont, and Loeb. Hell, those are the names are the ones I remember-- there are plenty out there aren't memorable and get forgotten. I get buying the good stuff, and honestly even the okay stuff because you want to read dudes punch other dudes. But reading the dreck because you always read F4 just lets the industry be lazy, and with big name characters god knows it has been over the years. With a TV analogy, I am stupid for not watching Star Trek V or Nemesis, even though I normally enjoy the Star Trek movies? And that makes more sense than a comic, since at least in those cases an amount of the creative team (the actors) are constant within the subseries. Endless Mike posted:Personally, I read books by creators I like, and like to try new things. If Star-Lord by Chip Zdarsky only lasts six issues, I'm perfectly satisfied if those are six good issues. Any writer worth their while can put together a good six-issue story that can be expanded upon if their book ends up being popular. Not everything needs to be an epic spanning multiple years and titles. A good amount of my enjoyment with comics is that its a long form storytelling medium. So six issues doesn't give any ability to build up anything and these zero payoff possible, doubly so since six issues now is like maybe a single story instead of four to six with some plot threads running between them. And yeah, I don't really generally buy mini-series, because even if it's an interesting take on the c-list character it's just going to be dumped the next time the character is used. Sorry that apparently makes me the cancer killing comics. I'd love it if my dollars could bring more diversity and thus a wider audience to comics. I already buy books in that vein-- hell Ms. Marvel is my current fav and I took a risk on her first #1 and have been buying it since. I buy the diverse comics from Marvel that I think are actually going to survive, like Black Panther and Iron Man. If there was a dollar figure I could pay to build a more diverse fanbase and product line, I would. If there was a dollar figure I could pay to get every one of the the fans of legit poo poo comics (we're talking like Identity Crisis or creeper porn comics, not people who just like poorly written/drawn stuff) the gently caress out of the hobby, I would in a microsecond. But there isn't, and supporting the lowest of the low tier stuff from Marvel doesn't even get them to make more of it. Hell, what I buy doesn't even matter. Sales are determined by whatever the guys who running the nerd dungeons order, not by what is bought by customers. I get that the two of them should be highly correlated, but at several of the places I've bought from it hasn't been-- it's a poo poo way to run a business, but lots of these business are shittily run, and it was worse during the boom years when you could be an idiot and still make money. I can't even really vote with my dollars for product because of the way votes are counted. I probably come off as very jaded and disconnected in this, but that's honestly how I feel with the state of the industry. It's a dying hobby, and a decent wing of the fanbase is toxic enough that they poo poo on any attempts to actually get better fans in to replace their pathetic asses and actually grow it. The situation's awful, and I legit don't know what's in my power to actually construct positive change instead of just throwing dollars into the well and hoping for the best or bitching about it on the internet.
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Apr 19, 2017 10:24
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There is nothing you can do. Distance yourself from the idea you're doing this for a purpose and not just reading what you enjoy, because I don't know if you've noticed but this is primarily a hobby of entertainment. Don't give a gently caress who's reading what or who's responsible for what. If you are buying a comic to support diversity or a creator and not because you enjoy the book you're reading... what the gently caress is wrong with you? Buy it cause you enjoy it or with an open mind because it sounds neat. If you can't separate yourself from all of that then it's going to eventually tear you up inside. You can't even say "Buy for the creators" There's plenty of creators who write absolute dreck at times and at others write magnificent books. The only driving factor that should be in anyones mind when picking up a comic is "Does this look good? Am I enjoying reading this?"
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Apr 19, 2017 10:36
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Onmi posted:There is nothing you can do. Distance yourself from the idea you're doing this for a purpose and not just reading what you enjoy, because I don't know if you've noticed but this is primarily a hobby of entertainment. Don't give a gently caress who's reading what or who's responsible for what. If you are buying a comic to support diversity or a creator and not because you enjoy the book you're reading... what the gently caress is wrong with you? Buy it cause you enjoy it or with an open mind because it sounds neat. If you can't separate yourself from all of that then it's going to eventually tear you up inside. No lie, I legit bought issue 1 of Ms. Marvel because I didn't want the big depiction of Muslims in comics to be the crap Geoff Johns pulled with Green Lantern. I honestly thought I had thrown $4 or whatever down the drain, but I wanted Marvel to know they did the right thing actually getting someone who had an idea about the subject matter in to write this. As a huge side benefit, the book was not good but great, and Wilson is channeling all the stuff Bendis did at the beginning of Ultimate Spider-man. Which is why I still buy the book and have it as top of the stack whenever I get back from the shop. I also refuse to buy a goddamn thing from either Orson Scott Card or Ethan Van Sciver, because both of them want me dead or seriously hosed over for who I am. Are you saying these positions are somehow bad, because they don't directly impact the content of the books? I get there's a level of "no ethical consumption under capitalism" vibe in the air, but to some extent you have to be responsible. The hobby's pretty obviously in a tailspin, and if you just keep walking down the same path the end point is pretty obvious. I'd rather have comics around in 10 years, and the way to do that is to get new blood than is almost by necessity going to be diverse. quote:You can't even say "Buy for the creators" There's plenty of creators who write absolute dreck at times and at others write magnificent books. The only driving factor that should be in anyones mind when picking up a comic is "Does this look good? Am I enjoying reading this?" Problem is that isn't true on its face. I read and still sometimes re-read Maus. It is not an enjoyable book, at least in the sense most people use. As as far as regular books are concerned, the one I always go back to reading every few years is Cry the Beloved Country. Again, not something that's at least conventionally enjoyable. It's not quite comparable, but there is superhero stuff that's sort of straddled the line between serious and pop lit before, so enjoyable might not be the best metric. Or maybe I just think of enjoyable closer to fun, when maybe you're meaning it as closer to important (regular use, not comics use of the word)
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Apr 19, 2017 11:50
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Haha yeah man way to step out on that comic that was hyped up for months ahead of time and had all kinds of numbers already.
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Apr 19, 2017 13:39
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Aphrodite posted:Haha yeah man way to step out on that comic that was hyped up for months ahead of time and had all kinds of numbers already. It was? No seriously, I don't read comics news because it just comes off as reprinting press releases. But Wilson herself said that she thought it would be lucky that she got six issues before cancellation, so I don't think it was a slam dunk of a book like you suggest. Especially since it's a new character, and last one of those that was successful was Deadpool back in the 90s.
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Apr 19, 2017 13:48
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Meanwhile, At Marvel, Secret Empire #0 Writing Desk: : Everyone seemed to really enjoy Nitro blowing up a school in Civil War! How can we use it again, but make the stakes EVEN HIGHER!?!?
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Apr 19, 2017 14:23
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fadam posted:what the gently caress now ask him how he feels about cell phones
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Apr 19, 2017 14:31
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rkajdi posted:Let's use a real world example I have here. My (now deceased) half-brother bought every issues of Fantastic Four, year in and out. Apparently, this is something he did since the early 80s. Now, he got some good runs in there (Simonson, Hickman) some okay stuff (Byrne, Waid) but also a pile of dreck that got put out because you had to have a writer do F4 and put a book out. Here I'm talking like Millar, Robinson, DeFalco, later Claremont, and Loeb. Hell, those are the names are the ones I remember-- there are plenty out there aren't memorable and get forgotten. I get buying the good stuff, and honestly even the okay stuff because you want to read dudes punch other dudes. But reading the dreck because you always read F4 just lets the industry be lazy, and with big name characters god knows it has been over the years. If your half-brother enjoyed reading the adventures of the F4, then so the gently caress what, he obviously didn't care, so why should you? Was he visibly upset and crying as he was buying issues you thought were sub-par? I mean, sure, you can go through life making sure you only read or watch or listen to some (somehow) objective check-marked list of Quality Items, but poo poo, taking in the bad stuff every so often is good for you too. If he was that unhappy with buying F4, he probably would have stopped. I buy CDs of bands that literally nobody else I know enjoys or thinks is good to even the smallest degree, but again, so the gently caress what, I'm the one listening to those sweet jams, not them. I also tend to "follow creators" quite a bit, but man, there is a whole truckload of work by my favorite writers I have not even touched, and probably never will, and I am totally okay with that. tl,dr; read whatever you goddman well want, whether it's poo poo or gold, but it's not your job to save the financial interests of a megacorporation redbackground fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 14:35
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Wait you thought the Waid run was just okay?
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Apr 19, 2017 17:27
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bobkatt013 posted:Wait you thought the Waid run was just okay? I'm a big FF fan and that's how I feel about Waid's run. I'd even go so far to saw that I liked Bryne's run over it by a country mile.
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Apr 19, 2017 18:27
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Simonson's is probably better than both Byrne's and Waid's.
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Apr 19, 2017 19:10
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Wheat Loaf posted:Simonson's is probably better than both Byrne's and Waid's. Well, that is a fact, jack.
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Apr 19, 2017 19:13
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