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starkebn posted:Maybe Luke is too, but it's also a matter of degrees. All Luke really manages to do is fly an X-Wing (which I agree should be beyond a farm boy) and trust the force to pull the trigger at the right time. Guess what, Star Wars sucks and the writing is bad to horrible for almost the entire seven films I've seen. I'm not defending Luke -or- Rey, but I don't think Rey is worse because she's a female it's because she's plainly a loving Mary Sue to a degree above. She's not a degree above in Star Wars terms is the point. She fits right in line with what's expected of a Star Wars protagonist but for some weird reason everybody decided to make a way bigger deal about it than it deserved. e; and are still making a bigger deal about it than it deserves apparently.
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Apr 19, 2017 01:11
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Kai Tave posted:She's not a degree above in Star Wars terms is the point. She fits right in line with what's expected of a Star Wars protagonist but for some weird reason everybody decided to make a way bigger deal about it than it deserved. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3755790&pagenumber=892#post471497062
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Apr 19, 2017 01:15
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starkebn posted:Maybe Luke is too, but it's also a matter of degrees. All Luke really manages to do is fly an X-Wing (which I agree should be beyond a farm boy) and trust the force to pull the trigger at the right time. Guess what, Star Wars sucks and the writing is bad to horrible for almost the entire seven films I've seen. I'm not defending Luke -or- Rey, but I don't think Rey is worse because she's a female it's because she's plainly a loving Mary Sue to a degree above. You're the one who's saying that both Luke and Rey are guilty of the same thing but are only calling Rey a Mary Sue. Of course it's going to look like you're picking on her because she's a woman protagonist and Luke isn't.
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Apr 19, 2017 01:17
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I'm trying to say it's not the same thing and you keep saying my argument is your argument
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Apr 19, 2017 01:21
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Plutonis posted:There were no internet or the concept of clickbait in 1979. We've been over this Plutonis, they had the internet in 1979, they just didn't have websites.
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Apr 19, 2017 01:29
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starkebn posted:Sounds pretty close to the mark for Rey, no matter how you fluff the backstory. She's like, 16-18 and kicks arse at everything. That's not a correct summation of the archetype. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue#Origin_and_development_of_the_meaning Rey is good at things because she's the main character and follows the Monomyth of Joseph Campbell.
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Apr 19, 2017 01:29
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I like Rey. I like all the new main characters in Star Wars. Real Mary Sue characters are bad because they're so perfect they're boring. Rey isn't like that.
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Apr 19, 2017 01:32
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okay, this can be the last from me about this in this thread, I tried to move it to a Star Wars thread to prevent being off topic but whatever. Clearly we all have different opinions on what a Mary Sue is, clearly some people think it is more pejorative than others using it. Clearly people see what Luke got up to as being about similar to what Rey gets up to. I am not in that camp. To my viewing Rey is portrayed as being able to do everything and being great at doing everything while that was not Luke. I still think Star Wars sucks.
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Apr 19, 2017 01:34
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Amuro Ray starts as a sniveling cowardly little poo poo who gets his poo poo smacked a lot at first and only wins because he rides the best robot ever made instead of having actual skill but later actually gets good at killing people with robots but never gets over his PTSD from killing his psychic friend and gets treated like poo poo by the government by being a Newtype. Japan wins again at sci-fi writing.
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Apr 19, 2017 01:36
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starkebn posted:I still think Star Wars sucks. Then why are you talking about it?
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Apr 19, 2017 01:40
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Lots of people talk about things they think suck on this very forum.
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Apr 19, 2017 01:41
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I literally got two more screeds on how the Force works sent to me on my ride home today, even though I was just drafting up an alt-system someone asked for. People really, really are being anal retentive about this stuff.
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Apr 19, 2017 01:42
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Countblanc posted:Lots of people talk about things they think suck on this very forum. 
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Apr 19, 2017 01:44
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Countblanc posted:Lots of people talk about things they think suck on this very forum. Not about your console.
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Apr 19, 2017 01:46
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That's because no one thinks the 3DS sucks.
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Apr 19, 2017 01:49
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I just bought a 3DS actually
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Apr 19, 2017 02:02
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fool_of_sound posted:I just bought a 3DS actually Too bad, it sucks like star wars and we're gonna post about it instead of elf games for the next page and a half.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:08
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Ominous Jazz posted:Too bad, it sucks like star wars and we're gonna post about it instead of elf games for the next page and a half. 
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Apr 19, 2017 02:11
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Ominous Jazz posted:Too bad, it sucks like star wars and we're gonna post about it instead of elf games for the next page and a half. The 3DS is badass, you can play Persona Q on it.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:11
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Serf posted:Kreia was almost right. The Force isn't the problem. People who use the Force are the problem. The only way to stop a bad guy with a lightsaber is a good guy with a lightsaber.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:14
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It also has the Phoenix Wright games, which makes me wonder, has there been an elf game that does combat talking? like Phoenix Wright or Dangan Rampa or something like that?
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Apr 19, 2017 02:14
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Ominous Jazz posted:It also has the Phoenix Wright games, which makes me wonder, has there been an elf game that does 4e bards can verbally own people so hard it causes them to drop dead.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:16
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There was that homebrew social encounters minigame that I think happyelf made for 4e but maybe it was someone else. I just remember that the board looked like a soccer field. Or maybe it didn't, idk.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:18
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fool_of_sound posted:I just bought a 3DS actually It's the second best handheld in history. Good luck gamer!
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Apr 19, 2017 02:32
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doing the prepro work on burning wheel gives me that fun, warm feeling that i used to get making characters for fun in GURPS when i was 14. What an impressively crunchy but well thought out game.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:42
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Evil Mastermind posted:The only way to stop a bad guy with a lightsaber is a good guy with a lightsaber. Revenge of the Sith demonstrated that enough highly trained good guys with guns can easily stop bad guys with lightsabers.
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Apr 19, 2017 03:04
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Serf posted:Revenge of the Sith demonstrated that enough highly trained good guys with guns can easily stop bad guys with lightsabers. Uh...
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Apr 19, 2017 03:07
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Kai Tave posted:But if you give her a dick then she's basically Luke Skywalker, backwoods farmboy from Planet Sticksville who goes on to discover that his dad was actually Kickass Pilot McSpaceknight, rescues a princess from a space fortress, then turns around and blows up said space fortress with his incredible starfighter piloting skills (and maybe his innate space magic because he's Just That Special) which he learned shooting space varmints, and nobody felt compelled to write a dozen clickbait articles about how Luke Skywalker is the original Mary Sue. i think the real difference is that luke gets knocked out by tuskens and needs to be saved, luke gets grabbed by garbage monsters and needs to be saved, and obi wan confronts vader because luke isn't ready. Rey releases the tentacle mouths Finn gets eaten and rey saves him. rey gets captured and then frees herself, rey defeats kylo ren in every single way.
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Apr 19, 2017 03:53
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Covok posted:Uh... clones and droids were good guys
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Apr 19, 2017 03:55
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Impermanent posted:Thanks for this, I'll probably direct them towards a Burning Wheel game, since that seems like a better fit for a small group. Burning Wheel does two-player groups very well. My preferred number of players for BW is either two or three, depending on the people involved. Four works fine, five is Too Much, six is laughable. Part of the reason for this is that Burning Wheel has a lot of subsystems you can engage very, very deeply and at great length if you want to, and you just don't get to see the full extent of those in larger groups: if you're playing a summoner in a group of four or five players, I want to hit you repeatedly around the head and shoulders with the Codex until you stop. But with two players, you can go hog-wild and have as many goddamn Fights and summonings and hilarious chains of linked tests as you want, and as long as you're leaving some room for the other person to get in on that most of the time, it's all good. Alien Rope Burn posted:I found Mouse Guard was a real headache to learn just by reading until I realized he was reinventing basic gaming terminology because... he's Luke Crane. It also kept referencing game concepts without actually explaining them until later in the book. Is Burning Wheel pretty much the same way? Mouse Guard's corebook is written the way it is because Luke was explicitly reaching out to audiences who had never played an RPG before, and would discover the game through cross-promotion with the comic. It's meant to teach a reader with absolutely zero gaming experience how to play a fairly complex RPG, and it's actually really good at that. For people who have a lot of experience with game manuals, it reads strangely.
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Apr 19, 2017 05:12
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Kestral posted:Mouse Guard's corebook is written the way it is because Luke was explicitly reaching out to audiences who had never played an RPG before, and would discover the game through cross-promotion with the comic. It's meant to teach a reader with absolutely zero gaming experience how to play a fairly complex RPG, and it's actually really good at that. For people who have a lot of experience with game manuals, it reads strangely. I found the 2nd Edition easy to read and grasp on first read through (although I had read Torchbearer, and struggled, and BW beforehand). I find that the Mouse Guard book is very badly organised for reference at the table. Nothing seems to be in the section of the book it ought to be in--or the rules are weirdly split across different parts of the book.
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Apr 19, 2017 05:28
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Plutonis posted:It's the second best handheld in history. Good luck gamer! It's the second worst Nintendo handheld that had changeable games, beating only the Virtua Boy. It's still really good based on its library even if its core feature was trash and its controller design was garbage.
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Apr 19, 2017 05:34
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fool_of_sound posted:4e bards can verbally own people so hard it causes them to drop dead. yeah and it has nothing to do with a bard's words being magical at all, either
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Apr 19, 2017 06:05
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Ominous Jazz posted:It also has the Phoenix Wright games, which makes me wonder, has there been an elf game that does Warhammer Fantasy RPG 3rd edition had the "battle of wits" thing for nobles and other people of high stations. Can't remember if it used the cards though.
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Apr 19, 2017 06:24
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Kestral posted:If you're thinking of that giant thread on RPGnet back in the day, the problem with the "kill the Messiah" idea is that it violates two of the core tenets of GM prep for DitV: "Follow the players' lead about what's important and what's not," and "Don't have a solution in mind." That is what I had in mind, yes. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
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Apr 19, 2017 06:27
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Elfgames posted:i think the real difference is that luke gets knocked out by tuskens and needs to be saved, luke gets grabbed by garbage monsters and needs to be saved, and obi wan confronts vader because luke isn't ready. Rey releases the tentacle mouths Finn gets eaten and rey saves him. rey gets captured and then frees herself, rey defeats kylo ren in every single way. This is why Rey is a Mary Stu to me. Not enough lack of competence to create drama in a conflict.
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Apr 19, 2017 06:57
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Rey is bad and boring and overskilled, but frankly so is the rest of the cast, all the main peeps suffer from a bad case of JJ Abrams superheroism. It's a bit more pronounced with Rey due to being the protagonist and grr womz. The Luke argument is really disingenuous, imo, as the farmboy kept failing forward to be saved by his friends and even by the third movie, after dagobah training, string of adventures and sleek jedi pants, the whole thing opens with a big slug openly mocki his poo poo rescue attempt, eventually salvaged by all his friends. Also, even at his most powerful he never did pull off poo poo like fast and furious 7 with a millenium falcon, though truth be told it's more about #justjjabramsthings and general midichlorian inflation of the franchise than how the chacters were written. The very same archetype of a badass scavenger lady with a staff whose parents were taken away was done a million times better in the newest Star Trek. For example, when she's introduced with a very similar scene of single-handedly dispatching a group of mooks while a supporting cast member cowers like an anime narrating sidekick, instead of throwing around a million dudes like Neo, she beats three somewhat scary thugs using sweet flips and a clever mechanical gizmo that gives her a very real and believable advantage with which to prevail. And works as a set-up for things further down the line, because that was a movie with a competent script.
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Apr 19, 2017 08:02
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Lichtenstein posted:#justjjabramsthings ..., because that was a movie with a competent script. I think you've narrowed it down for me. I wasn't sold by Finn either as a character even though he seemed to have a good backstory in theory. I just couldn't put my finger on why. Then there were explosions and I was distracted so I guess Abrams is right in doing what he's doing ultimately. Come to think of it I didn't like Kylo Ren either. Han Solo's acting rescued the show for me. Oh well. 
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Apr 19, 2017 08:14
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Blank Construct posted:Warhammer Fantasy RPG 3rd edition had the "battle of wits" thing for nobles and other people of high stations. Can't remember if it used the cards though. There were a decent number of cards for operating in social situations.
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Apr 19, 2017 08:16
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I dug out "Lure of Power" and yeah there is social combat called "The Duel of Wits" where combatants make each other accumulate shame until one withdraws from the conflict. e: also of course appropriate cards for it such as "skeleton in the closet." Blank Construct fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 11:43
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