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Tuxedo Catfish posted:sounds like the only rational response to a business model like that is not to buy in at all In theory LCGs are a step up from CCGs in that there's no random distribution and no crazy secondary market shenanigans, you buy a pack and you know what it has, and in fairness the expansions don't generally do the same "gotta buy more than one to have a true complete set" model, but FFG is fond of experimenting with ways to get more money out of people with minimal benefit to the consumer (such as packaging the Emperor Palpatine upgrade card along with upgrades to a lackluster ship for the X-Wing minis game in a $100 box set along with an enormo spaceship for a mode of play that isn't that good and virtually nobody does).
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Apr 20, 2017 05:36
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I think it's pretty rational to be okay with spending the little bit of extra money to support a game you enjoy if you want. Or not if you don't think it's worth it. You don't even need to compare it to the relative costs of CCGs to be okay with it. Plus I'm sure there's like 500 god drat tokens in the box. I've bought plenty of extra/useless warmachine poo poo because I like PP, I want the options, I like the models and I want to support them.
S.J. fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 05:58
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Fantasy Flight Games isn't a struggling artist trying to live their dream on Patreon. If they want my money for something then they can offer me goods and services that aren't a naked cash-grab like other publishers manage to pull off, they aren't being forced to sell as many LCG core sets as they can in order to save the rec center from being turned into a shopping mall. e; like my objection is less the actual dollar value because I'm perfectly happy to drop $90+ on a tabletop game, it's the fact that for that $90 you spend you get the same thing three times along with a bunch of garbage that doesn't even have value as something to give away, and I'm reasonably confident that if they wanted to they could find some way to cut down on the pointless redundant waste that ensues from their model. Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 06:04
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I'm not really sure where that analogy came from, just because FFG is doing well for themselves doesn't mean there's something wrong with being okay at the extra cash expense to support them, even if I don't like every part of the core set model. Like I said, I agree about the waste though, that part really does suck, and is a serious downside of the model. I'm not really sure it's a particularly egregious issue at the scale that LCGs operate at, especially considering how efficient the expansion system is. There's certainly a cash-grab part of it as well, and that sucks, but not enough to stop me from buying their games. A lot of their popular games have similar issues, like X-Wing.
S.J. fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 06:14
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S.J. posted:I'm not really sure where that analogy came from, just because FFG is doing well for themselves doesn't mean there's something wrong with being okay at the extra cash expense to support them Because there's already an avenue in place for supporting game publishers you like, it's called "buying their products," there's no need to rationalize a lovely business model by going "well but I do want to support them." You can be fine with supporting a game company and also fine with calling them out for egregious money-grabs that don't benefit the consumer in the slightest which is Fantasy Flight's sometimes MO (not all the time, but sometimes). It's like, I think Bulletstorm is a good, perhaps critically underrated game. I unabashedly recommend it to people interested in a fun FPS where Steve Blum says "gently caress" a lot. I'd love to see a sequel made someday. I'm not going to pay Gearbox and Randy Pitchford $60 for the Bulletstorm Remaster when it's a lazy and feature-poor remaster of an older game being sold at brand new AAA game prices after they removed the original version from sale (with a Duke Nukem DLC add-on that no one asked for), even though Pitchford has come right out and said that sales of the remaster will influence how likely a sequel is in the future because gently caress all of that.
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Apr 20, 2017 06:21
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At no point did I say I wasn't okay with pointing out the downsides of the model. I've been agreeing with you. You're taking my lack of serious objections to the core set model a bit too far. Nor did I claim that I was doing anything other than just purchasing their products. I mean, I already mentioned the moneygrabs in other things that they do. But I don't think any of these issues are egregious enough to warrant me not purchasing the products in question. I'm not trying to unduly justify my purchasing decisions, but you've also ignored a lot of the points that I've made along the way. And that's fine, you're just more upset about it than me, I guess. The core set model is obviously not great but I don't think it's bad enough to get particularly up in arms about. I'm cool with you disagreeing with that.
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Apr 20, 2017 06:26
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Well this is my first exposure to one of their LCGs which will at some point require three cores as opposed to "merely" two, which apparently they've done before but is new to me. Android and Arkham Horror are the card games of theirs which I'm familiar with and those both require two sets to max out on everything, so when I see that a new and upcoming LCG of theirs which I'm guessing is going to be very hotly anticipated given that it's a reboot of one of the hobby's grand old dames and that one of the things they lead off with is "competitive players may have to buy three core sets to get the max number of everything" what I took away from that is that FFG took a look at the previous models of getting people to buy multiple core sets for an LCG and said "yeah but we can take this even further."
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Apr 20, 2017 06:31
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I know for a fact that each of the factions in the netrunner LCG had one card in them that was a one-of per core set, actually. The cooperative games only require two, which was fantastic, because that also doubled the player count in addition to giving you the extra deck building options. That's really the ideal here, I think. The Star Wars LCG only required two because 2 objective sets was the max you could take in a deck anyways. Conquest required three as well. I didn't play the Warhammer Fantasy LCG or the old Arkham competitive LCG, and the new version of Game of Thrones I haven't picked up either but I wouldn't be surprised if that was a 3 of requirement, but someone else here certainly knows better.
S.J. fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 06:33
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I got around to posting a poll thread for this month's tag contest, so if you'd like to see some new TG tags go and vote!
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Apr 20, 2017 07:32
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NGDBSS posted:The first preview for the upcoming L5R LCG came out today, and among other things it looks like FFG is resetting the metaplot to before the Scorpion coup. On the one hand there was probably some interesting material in that metaplot, but on the other hand I can understand how it became way too cumbersome to deal with both for the fans and for the writers. (And that's not even counting the recent issues with fixing outcomes!) The lack of Mantis clan makes me sad.
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Apr 20, 2017 08:17
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Tsilkani posted:The lack of Mantis clan makes me sad. Eh, it's a huge property they're trying to restart. They can't fit everything in - it's like trying to put together a new Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, there's too much for just one product. They'll get to it, I'm sure.
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Apr 20, 2017 08:25
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I suddenly feel that even though I'm about to buy into Magic, I could be making worse financial decisions involving card games.  I wonder if the core singletons will again be some of the best cards in the game?
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Apr 20, 2017 08:41
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Conquest needed three core sets because there were a ton of singletons, with a couple of doubles in each faction. The only waste with extra core sets were the warlord + signature squads and the planet cards.
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Apr 20, 2017 08:46
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Alternatively, no set needs multiple box purchases because FFG writes the rules and packages the product
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Apr 20, 2017 10:35
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Countblanc posted:I want to live in your era
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Apr 20, 2017 10:47
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:sounds like the only rational response to a business model like that is not to buy in at all
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Apr 20, 2017 10:51
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If people complain but nonetheless buy the product, they have very little incentive to change their ways. It's almost as if they're holding their own game hostage. "Don't want to buy this product? Then we'll just cancel the entire line because obviously if the core set doesn't sell nobody wants this game!"
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Apr 20, 2017 11:07
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starkebn posted:Alternatively, no set needs multiple box purchases because FFG writes the rules and packages the product It's basically this. FFG could have put the extra cards in the base set. Maybe it would have jacked the price a bit. But instead they thought they'd gouge anyone who wants to play the game 'seriously' to the tune of three boxes. So... that'll be another LCG I take a pass on.
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Apr 20, 2017 11:36
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potatocubed posted:It's basically this. FFG could have put the extra cards in the base set. Maybe it would have jacked the price a bit. But instead they thought they'd gouge anyone who wants to play the game 'seriously' to the tune of three boxes. Alternatively, if they really prized being able to just pick up and play a particular faction deck (as they did with Netrunner) they could just sell a second box that's the extra copies of all 2- or 1-copy cards. Pretty certain that would sell well enough to be profitable.
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Apr 20, 2017 12:39
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I hope the LotFR LCG does poorly and the entire intellectual property is taken out back and shot.
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Apr 20, 2017 12:42
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Flavivirus posted:Alternatively, if they really prized being able to just pick up and play a particular faction deck (as they did with Netrunner) they could just sell a second box that's the extra copies of all 2- or 1-copy cards. Pretty certain that would sell well enough to be profitable. or seeing as there are a bunch of factions in L5R have only a few factions per complete box, and multiple boxes
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Apr 20, 2017 12:52
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The Deleter posted:I hope the LotFR LCG does poorly and the entire intellectual property is taken out back and shot. What's wrong with the IP itself?
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Apr 20, 2017 12:53
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potatocubed posted:It's basically this. FFG could have put the extra cards in the base set. Maybe it would have jacked the price a bit. But instead they thought they'd gouge anyone who wants to play the game 'seriously' to the tune of three boxes. Unless there's some kind of licensing fee involved, the cost of including a few extra cards in a box is a few cents unless the box is already stuffed to the gills. Requiring three cores to have enough cards for competitive play is just a naked cash grab.
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Apr 20, 2017 13:09
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Drone posted:What's wrong with the IP itself? i'm guessing john wick
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Apr 20, 2017 13:11
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Drone posted:What's wrong with the IP itself? Mostly John Wick. The metaplot bullshit and stuff about the Scoprion clan, plus just him in general. I would rather Wick's HONORABU SAMURAI wankbait IP didn't exist. I'm also really tired of magic feudal Japan as a setting and would really rather something else got explored, or a new IP got made, instead of this being created to get the money from the five people on planet Earth in 2017 who care about L5R. This is all independent of any discussion about FFG's business model with the LCG.
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Apr 20, 2017 13:12
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I can't sincerely hate a setting where a pivotal NPC is named Oh Really Jones.
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Apr 20, 2017 13:21
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How is it John Wick's IP? I don't know the whole tortured history of L5R metaplot, but I find it's interesting in inverse proportion to the degree of heaven-shaking mystical events happening. Like I enjoy a war against the Shadowlands as much as the next guy, I suppose, but once literally godlike NPCs start literally coming down from heaven to hog the spotlight, I'm out.
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Apr 20, 2017 14:25
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Halloween Jack posted:How is it John Wick's IP? Quite literally.
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Apr 20, 2017 14:28
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Is John Wick writing for the new L5R?
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Apr 20, 2017 14:59
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"I'm back." - John Wick, Payday 2, 2015
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Apr 20, 2017 16:01
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Countblanc posted:"I'm back." - John Wick, Payday 2, 2015 They could afford Sharlto Copley and Ron Perlman but not Keanu??
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Apr 20, 2017 16:03
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long-rear end nips Diane posted:I don't think it's marketing as much as the distribution model. It's not like there's a singles market for LCGs, so you'll be buying cards for every faction anyway, so making people buy 7 starters to get all the clans instead of one box would be kinda lame. Well, you don't have to sell things in only one way, but I know what I want isn't practical in the market. I just miss the notion of being able to say "I'm a Phoenix player" and only worry about that side of things. SirPhoebos posted:Is John Wick writing for the new L5R? It seems really unlikely. It's not impossible, but he did burn his bridges at AEG pretty severely and he really hasn't been involved in nearly two decades. If he was there'd probably be a big announcement over it at some point.
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Apr 20, 2017 16:05
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John Wick didn't invent L5R, and there's nothing about the new game on his homepage. Maybe he receives royalties? But this is the RPG business.
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Apr 20, 2017 16:07
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Halloween Jack posted:John Wick didn't invent L5R, and there's nothing about the new game on his homepage. Maybe he receives royalties? But this is the RPG business. Hahahahaha- I'd say 99% chance of not.
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Apr 20, 2017 16:46
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Kwyndig posted:Unless there's some kind of licensing fee involved, the cost of including a few extra cards in a box is a few cents unless the box is already stuffed to the gills. Requiring three cores to have enough cards for competitive play is just a naked cash grab. They did the same thing with Netrunner and it was lovely there as well. FFG's business practices are poo poo.
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Apr 20, 2017 16:48
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I seem to recall they also didn't include enough dice in the X-Wing starter to actually roll attacks?
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Apr 20, 2017 16:54
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What tabletop rpg slash board game will you be playing today on Columbine, Adolf Hitler, Devil Weed day?
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Apr 20, 2017 17:26
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Honestly, depending on how the card count turns out, I'm excited to buy an extra starter or two, strip the set of the cards I need, and then throw it at a friend to get them into the game.
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Apr 20, 2017 17:30
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Plutonis posted:What tabletop rpg slash board game will you be playing today on Columbine, Adolf Hitler, Devil Weed day? Probably Gloomhaven, Keyflower, or Food Chain Magnate
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Apr 20, 2017 17:34
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Plutonis posted:What tabletop rpg slash board game will you be playing today on Columbine, Adolf Hitler, Devil Weed day? I'm not religious.
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Apr 20, 2017 17:35
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