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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
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DaveWoo posted:So, leaving Booker aside for a moment - who would you guys support as a candidate in 2020? i would probably swallow my pride and vote for Harris assuming she tacked correctly in the primary/general. same goes for gillibrand i guess
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Apr 20, 2017 21:16
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:If this voting block was as ripe for the plucking as you indicate, where are they? Staying at home and not voting because the democrats are poo poo. Like 50% of the country doesn't vote because they have 0 faith in the entire political system. It's pretty deserved at this point too.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:17
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Holy Christ. Me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm81LSKJC2k
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Apr 20, 2017 21:18
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DaveWoo posted:So, leaving Booker aside for a moment - who would you guys support as a candidate in 2020? Anyone willing to shed the New Democrat/Third Way hanger-ons and refuse to surround themselves with corporate CEOs, financers, and lobbyists and who is willing to have the back of and support progressives even if they aren't a great progressive themselves would have my support. Hypothetically.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:20
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It's awesome that centrists can openly use a strategy of "don't go there because the people agree more with the left leaning guy" and then come around and say "where are all these supposed left leaning peoples?!"
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Apr 20, 2017 21:19
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:If this voting block was as ripe for the plucking as you indicate, where are they? If only there was some indication that people who had previously voted for Obama were turned off by America Is Already Great, We Don't Actually Need To Appeal To Voters, Keeping Pharma And Finance Happy Is What matters.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:20
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DaveWoo posted:So, leaving Booker aside for a moment - who would you guys support as a candidate in 2020? Biden, Hickenlooper, Gillibrand, Duckworth, Harris, and (most unlikely but would be amazing) Obama (the better half)
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Apr 20, 2017 21:21
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DaveWoo posted:So, leaving Booker aside for a moment - who would you guys support as a candidate in 2020? In terms of who I'd vote for, I would even vote for Booker if he were against Trump. But in the primary there aren't that many great options (yet, at least, it's a while until 2020); Warren would be good but I don't think she's going to want to run (and the same probably goes for Sanders). At the end of the day I'd vote (in the primary) for whoever is the most palatable. I disagree strongly with leftists who choose to either not vote in the primary (if they're allowed to depending upon the state's rules) or vote for the Democratic candidate in the general election (if they're in a state that could possibly become a swing state), because at that point voting itself becomes a pragmatic decision. But I consider actually voicing opinions to be a separate issue entirely, and I will likely criticize the Democratic nominee if I don't like them, even though I'll ultimately still vote for them.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:22
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lmao Hickenlooper, you have to be kidding me yeah, let's get an Oil and Gas guy in the white house, when has that ever gone wrong
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Apr 20, 2017 21:22
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:The arguments being made here ARE dumb. There isn't discourse here that leads to anything other than tankies getting mad that they don't have full communism now. When you find yourself on the same side of an argument as people like NewForumSoftware, maybe you should stop and think if you are on the right side. Lol if you read NFS posts. WhiskeyJuvenile posted:sure, but the person making the criticism matters Exactly this. The same message coming from Bernie makes Trump seem credible to people who may have gotten out to vote against him otherwise. I'm not saying anyone can't or shouldn't criticize clinton, but "trump would have just said the same thing bernie did" isn't a very good argument. GlyphGryph posted:Counterpoint: Centrists (of the sort you are) are actually bad, and if we purged them from the party we could pull in more than enough of the moderates and independents (people the centrists drive away so effectively) to replace them. [citation needed] Also, just becuase he self identified as a centrist doesn't really mean he's the sort of person most people are talking about when they say "centrists should be purged from the party" and telling someone you want to purge them never makes you sound good.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:21
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JeffersonClay posted:So you're contending that only party officials can betray their party? In any case Tulsi Gabbard never endorsed her and had no problem airing her reservations about voting for Clinton once she was the nominee. Who cares? Trump got dunked on by his entire loving party right up to election day. You literally had very well respected party members making GBS threads all over him and saying poo poo like he's wholly unfit, but poor Hillary had one primary challenger who CAMPAIGNED FOR HER for months after the primary and you're crying and calling it backstabbing.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:21
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:So wanting safe imported drugs is a bad thing now, got it. Do you guys see centrist monsters under your bed? See, poo poo like this is why I have a hard time taking you seriously. You should at least try to be subtle when arguing in bad faith.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:22
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Cerebral Bore posted:See, poo poo like this is why I have a hard time taking you seriously. You should at least try to be subtle when arguing in bad faith. He's not arguing in bad faith, this is what centrists actually believe. The industry group for pharmaceuticals said it, and they are smarter than me, so who am I to argue?
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Apr 20, 2017 21:24
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Ze Pollack posted:If only there was some indication that people who had previously voted for Obama were turned off by America Is Already Great, We Don't Actually Need To Appeal To Voters, Keeping Pharma And Finance Happy Is What matters. So Voter turnout being down is the same thing as voter support for progressive polices? Doesn't that seem like a stretch? there are a ton of factors that go into voter turnout. I am not dismissing the line of argument, but I am not convinced. I would like to see more direct proof. If it ends up being true, then awesome. If it isn't then it would be a huge mistake to purge centrists.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:24
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Nevvy Z posted:Also, just becuase he self identified as a centrist doesn't really mean he's the sort of person most people are talking about when they say "centrists should be purged from the party" and telling someone you want to purge them never makes you sound good. If you would prefer "the people who have lost the party all political power beyond the strongly worded tweet should be replaced and not allowed back in power" to "centrists should be purged," we can say that instead. That second one's a little punchier, though, and messaging's important. Though I know it hurts Hillary partisans to admit it, sometimes you gotta say some distasteful things to get elected.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:26
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:So Voter turnout being down is the same thing as voter support for progressive polices? Doesn't that seem like a stretch? there are a ton of factors that go into voter turnout. I am not dismissing the line of argument, but I am not convinced. I would like to see more direct proof. If it ends up being true, then awesome. If it isn't then it would be a huge mistake to purge centrists. Voter turnout in states that went for Hillary, specifically. Something about Hillary Clinton's campaign fundamentally turned off the people who signed onto Barack Obama's platform of hope and change. Tell me, friend. How would you characterize the differences between the two?
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Apr 20, 2017 21:28
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NewForumSoftware posted:He's not arguing in bad faith, this is what centrists actually believe. The industry group for pharmaceuticals said it, and they are smarter than me, so who am I to argue? No, it was a vote on a symbolic amendment for a bill that was 100% guaranteed to fail. I am betting Booker's PR people put out a statement to placate people like you, but they didn't realise you were so insufferable. More than likely some of his constituents (you know the people who elected him and he represents) didn't like the ebill and lobbied him to vote against. But please, continue to tell me what a monster cory booker is.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:28
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Cory's a mess.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:30
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Ze Pollack posted:Voter turnout in states that went for Hillary, specifically. Something about Hillary Clinton's campaign fundamentally turned off the people who signed onto Barack Obama's platform of hope and change. Well, Obama was a waaaaaay better politician, had a meaningful message, and handled his opponents way better. They are ideologically 95% the same. I hope you weren't making a racial argument.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:31
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:So Voter turnout being down is the same thing as voter support for progressive polices? Doesn't that seem like a stretch? there are a ton of factors that go into voter turnout. I am not dismissing the line of argument, but I am not convinced. I would like to see more direct proof. If it ends up being true, then awesome. If it isn't then it would be a huge mistake to purge centrists. IT's more like this, centrist. People support candidates who stand for something and can stand on the policies they say they support. BOoker, nor Clinton cannot. Meanwhile Sander's can Oh also voters don't go for people who like you believe that Bankers are angels.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:30
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NewForumSoftware posted:With our Canadian brethren falling by the thousands to their bad drugs I can understand why safety would be so paramount. Would God, I'd smuggle in Epipens by the shipping container if I could help you guys. 
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Apr 20, 2017 21:31
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:No, it was a vote on a symbolic amendment for a bill that was 100% guaranteed to fail. So senators shouldn't vote on failing bills to keep their batting averages up? Why not just vote for the choice that actually tries to help the American people? Safety... mhm, sure.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:31
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Well, Obama was a waaaaaay better politician, had a meaningful message, and handled his opponents way better. They are ideologically 95% the same. I hope you weren't making a racial argument. Surface level. Dig a little deeper. In what ways was Obama a better politician? Why did his message resonate, where Hillary's did not? How did he handle his opponents better than Hillary? Why did Obama motivate people to vote for him in a way Hillary Clinton failed to do?
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Apr 20, 2017 21:33
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Crowsbeak posted:IT's more like this, centrist. People support candidates who stand for something and can stand on the policies they say they support. BOoker, nor Clinton cannot. Meanwhile Sander's can Oh also voters don't go for people who like you believe that Bankers are angels. I love it when people tell me what I believe. You guys must be running low on straw after all these posts.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:32
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Oh My God a reasonable post that I can respond to without getting upset. Leftists and populists were effectively purged from the party in the 70s/80s as part of the rebellion against the then-party-establishment which installed most of our third way worshippers and corporate stooges. It's actually got a lot of really interesting stuff if you look at the history. God, I had a really good source for this but I can't remember it. There were plenty of examples before then, but they became a lot more rare after that. But anyway the point is they haven't exactly had a lot of opportunities since then, we've only recently started regaining any sort of actual pull. Quist is probably a good example of the up and comers, though. In regards to why I think centrists are driving a lot of voters away, look at one of the HUGE Centrist issues, gun control. They love themselves showy symbolic gun bans like the AWB that absolutely drive a bunch of people away (with help, of course). Booker himself did a literal 15 hour filibuster on this issue. He supports restricting guns from anyone on the no fly list! Of all the issues he deals with, this is one of the ones he's most passionate about. And because of people like him, it's a major Republican rallying cry that hurts our opportunities outside of the city and among people who would otherwise be on board with our message. Leftists are generally pro-gun, at least compared to Centrists like Booker. I think it's an area Dems would benefit immensely from regaining credibility on, I think that one issue alone could turn the country solidly Blue if they managed it, but I think it's impossible while Centrists are the ones calling the shots. There's plenty of other issues as well - centrist support for financial and cultural elites, their authoritarian inclinations in regards to policing and drug laws, their desire for a stratified society, their condemnation and contempt of the working poor and also rural citizens.... I mean Gun stuff is just one example here. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 21:33
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GlyphGryph posted:Leftists and populists were effectively purged from the party in the 70s/80s as part of the rebellion against the then-party-establishment which installed most of our third way worshippers and corporate stooges. It's actually got a lot of really interesting stuff if you look at the history. God, I had a really good source for this but I can't remember it. There were plenty of examples before then, but they became a lot more rare after that. But anyway the point is they haven't exactly had a lot of opportunities since then, we've only recently started regaining any sort of actual pull. Quist is probably a good example of the up and comers, though. Can I just respond to you from now on? I would love to hear any recommendations for reading on the subject of the party purge of the 70's and 80's. I have to admit that my knowledge of the Democrats drops of pretty fast around the carter years. I am confused by your position on gun rights, as I feel the same way. Wanting the democrats to drop the gun issues entirely, as far as a I knew, was a centrist position. Don't the far left type want more gun restrictions and legislation? I always said it was a losing issue. Do you think you will being in more left leaning people by dropping the gun issue, or more centrists? I feel quite disoriented by this position by people also advocating the purging of centrists.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:39
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I love it when people tell me what I believe. You guys must be running low on straw after all these posts. Well would you support legislating breaking up these big banks? BTW this is a yes or no answer. Anything that isn't yes will be treated as a no answer. Also agreed with Glyph on gun control.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:40
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I feel quite disoriented by this position by people also advocating the purging of centrists. Why? Do you think they'd vote Trump over Bernie?
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Apr 20, 2017 21:40
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Crowsbeak posted:Well would you support legislating breaking up these big banks? BTW this is a yes or no answer. Anything that isn't yes will be treated as a no answer. yes
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Apr 20, 2017 21:40
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NewForumSoftware posted:Why? Do you think they'd vote Trump over Bernie? No bernie has a good stance on Guns. But I don't think bernie is representative of the left when it comes to gun rights.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:42
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:No bernie has a good stance on Guns. But I don't think bernie is representative of the left when it comes to gun rights. Do you think centrists would vote for Trump over a leftist candidate? Let's say they went ahead and tried UHC, minimum wage increase, raising taxes on the 1%, etc right out of the gate. Those are "fringe leftist" positions today, how is it purging centrists to put leadership in that has these things as priority? Would centrists not vote for the left? Seems the more reasonable option. Who's vote do the Democrats lose by moving left exactly? The amount of "pragmatism" bullshit I've seen spewed this last election cycle leads me to believe that anyone who could justify voting for Hillary could have justified voting for Bernie. Note that this is also why Bernie would have won.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:42
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I am confused by your position on gun rights, as I feel the same way. Wanting the democrats to drop the gun issues entirely, as far as a I knew, was a centrist position. Don't the far left type want more gun restrictions and legislation? I always said it was a losing issue. Do you think you will being in more left leaning people by dropping the gun issue, or more centrists? I feel quite disoriented by this position by people also advocating the purging of centrists. Far left is generally very pro-gun, the regular left is generally gun neutral, the anti-gun stuff tends to be primarily pushed mostly by the big city rich centrists and suburban white flight folks who are mostly concerned about the "wrong people" getting guns, though it also receives some support from desperate folks in high poverty high crime areas. (The actual policies that come across the table almost never do much to help those folks though, in my opinion) Considering the whole gun control movement was supporter by Reagan as an appeal to racists who were afraid of armed blacks, it's not what I consider to be a traditionally left-wing value. In terms of wings, Sanders was pro-gun rights and so are a lot of folks in the Bernie wing like Quist. Clinton and the various Clintonites are all very much in favour of heavy handed gun control. I'll see if I can dig up where I read about the 70s/80s purges. It was two different sources but it was also months and months ago. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Apr 20, 2017 |
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Apr 20, 2017 21:44
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GlyphGryph posted:Leftists and populists were effectively purged from the party in the 70s/80s as part of the rebellion against the then-party-establishment which installed most of our third way worshippers and corporate stooges. It's actually got a lot of really interesting stuff if you look at the history. God, I had a really good source for this but I can't remember it. I'll just link my post, cause my break is running out. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3512233&pagenumber=2225&perpage=40#post469098495 Mister Facetious posted:To be sure McGovern simply got the ball rolling.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:46
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- American politics." is how the sentence ends.
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:No bernie has a good stance on Guns. But I don't think bernie is representative of the left when it comes to gun rights. Bernie is actually rather representative of the left, at least the parts of it I've been exposed to. It's not a consensus issue and it's not seen as vital to leftism, but pro-gun-rights sentiment is very common.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:50
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NewForumSoftware posted:Do you think centrists would vote for Trump over a leftist candidate? Let's say they went ahead and tried UHC, minimum wage increase, raising taxes on the 1%, etc right out of the gate. Those are "fringe leftist" positions today, how is it purging centrists to put leadership in that has these things as priority? Would centrists not vote for the left? Seems the more reasonable option. Well considering the centrists that DID vote voted for Trump over Hillary, I don't see how you can think they wouldn't. More than likely half of the people would get upset that the candidate wasn't left wing enough and vote for Trump out of spite. Also, if it is another Woman, expect a good percentage of those people to vote against her from just pure misogyny. I would vote for anyone with those positions, but I don't have the hubris to say the rest of the country would vote with me because it's what I want. Shits way more complicated than that.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:51
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:but they didn't realise you were so insufferable. Nah friend, the insufferable thing is the diseases people have to live with because they can't afford their medications due to idiots like you and the people you support
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Apr 20, 2017 21:53
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Of loving course it's the dude saying "are you making a RACIAL argument.......?" that's advocating to keep medicine outside of the poor's hands
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Apr 20, 2017 21:55
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Well considering the centrists that DID vote voted for Trump over Hillary, I don't see how you can think they wouldn't. More than likely half of the people would get upset that the candidate wasn't left wing enough and vote for Trump out of spite. Also, if it is another Woman, expect a good percentage of those people to vote against her from just pure misogyny. The idea that suburban republicans are attainable centrists, instead of suburban republicans, is probably the single most embarrassing side-effect of the modern structure of the Democratic Party. In a universe where everyone of any political importance has to have had parents willing to pay for their extended internship with a campaign, of course the working class, minority and otherwise, is a strange unreachable alien race whose votes are immutably locked by cultural factors. But Thad and the guys I play tennis with on the weekend, those are people we can reach!
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Apr 20, 2017 21:56
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Well considering the centrists that DID vote voted for Trump over Hillary, I don't see how you can think they wouldn't. More than likely half of the people would get upset that the candidate wasn't left wing enough and vote for Trump out of spite. Also, if it is another Woman, expect a good percentage of those people to vote against her from just pure misogyny. I think we might have a clashing definition of centrist here. Centrists almost exclusively went for Hillary this election, even the ones that supported Romney last time around. Centrism is an actual political stance and value system of it's own, it doesn't cover all moderates and independents.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:57
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Mister Facetious posted:I'll just link my post, cause my break is running out. Thanks. GlyphGryph posted:Bernie is actually rather representative of the left, at least the parts of it I've been exposed to. It's not a consensus issue and it's not seen as vital to leftism, but pro-gun-rights sentiment is very common. See, I have the exact opposite experience. left leaning types in california (where i've lived my entire left util 3 months ago) are extremely anti gun. I've never associated pro-gun stances with progressive politicians other than Bernie and that one democrat that did the campaign commercial assembling a rifle and being pro background check (which I also am)
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Apr 20, 2017 21:56
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