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Mudfly posted:Are second hand measuring tools not a bit of a risky buy? I would think they're the one thing you'd buy new, to avoid the chance they've been dropped etc. Not really. You just get a gage block that's in your operating range and ensure it's on target. I'm sure some QA SPC autist will tell me how it's not good enough, but for the average dude it's good enough. Once upon a time mic's came with a bar-bell looking thing that was like 1/2" long, or 1 1/2" long. I'd rather drop $100 on a used Interapid indicator than spend $100 on a new Fowler. We used to have a 5 gallon pail filled with worn out Mitutoyo 293's. The anvils wear out and we have to pull them from production. If I can track it down I'll snap a pic, it's comical. edit : Like this : https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/06238679?rd=k&searchAhead=true&searchAheadTerm=06238679&typahddsp=06238679&hdrsrh=true
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Apr 21, 2017 12:14
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Analog vs digital meters? I have a preference for analog non powered stuff, but is it better, more long lasting? Or no diff? I am probably gonna want a quality micrometer, dial-indicator and a test indicator. Something very square and flat. Is there a cheapo way to get something like a big surface plate?
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Apr 21, 2017 12:19
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I really like mechanical digital mics. I have a few external, and an internal one. The little number ticket is satisfying and it doesn't have the issues with coolant etc that digital does.
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Apr 21, 2017 12:30
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His Divine Shadow posted:Analog vs digital meters? I have a preference for analog non powered stuff, but is it better, more long lasting? Or no diff? Analog-Digital, our PPAP testing shows much high capabilities with digital equipment. Both more repeatable and more accurate. Price these days is also very close. A Mitutoyo 293 Digital is $120 on Amazon while the Mitutoyo 103 is $97. I have old grizzled machinists that swear they can measure millionths with a vernier mic, but our testing shows it's bullshit. As far as life goes our anvils wear out long before the electronics ever go. I've got a set of Mitutoyo calipers I use daily that's 11 years old and still kicking strong. Our mics are IP67 rated and suffer no ills from being soaked in coolant for two shifts a day. We use SPI (MSCDirect's el-cheapo line) for stuff that is only thousandths accuracy and it works OK. I have a granite surface plate the size of a queen sized mattress that we picked up for $100 at an auction. I see them go for sale a lot in auctions. You could also look at an iron surface plate too. Depending on how big (or small) you need, MSC has little guys starting at $50.
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Apr 21, 2017 12:37
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A Proper Uppercut posted:You really can't go wrong with Mitutoyo, we use these ones in the shop and they are solid, and under $100 https://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-Advanced-Absolute-Digital-Caliper/dp/B00WMKUUAQ I've got a set and I love them so another +1
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Apr 21, 2017 12:49
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Volkerball posted:These are great so long as you keep in mind that they are not coolant proof. True, though that's not really an issue in our shop. Pretty much anything Mitutoyo and you cant go wrong as far as I'm concerned. We've even got some lovely Phase II mics that I will trust with measuring tenths no problem. His Divine Shadow posted:Analog vs digital meters? I have a preference for analog non powered stuff, but is it better, more long lasting? Or no diff? I prefer analog, probably just because I'm used to it though. I'm sure I'd love digital if I picked one up. Personally, knowing what I know now, and for the work I do, if I was starting out I'd want- Mic set, 0-3" https://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-103...+micrometer+set Digital calipers, 0-8" (I don't know how many times I'd had things like 6.5" inches I needed to measure and needed to borrow someone else's longer calipers) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I3UA89C?psc=1 Test indicator (I personally prefer .0001" but I know most people would be more than fine with the .0005" https://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-513...+test+indicator I see cheapo surface plates on MSC all the time. A Proper Uppercut fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 12:55
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Odd theoretical question from someone who has never worked a metal: would it be remotely feasible to design a functional machine shop that would be able to make all of its own spare parts (and by extension, a copy of itself)? What would you need to include?
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Apr 21, 2017 19:19
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A large engine lathe, a bridgeport mill, a bench grinder, and sand-casting equipment will let you make basically any hard metal part from scratch (like, from piles of scrap metal) as long as it fits within the envelope of your machines. If you have a supply of stock material, I would start with the lathe, since it can make improved parts for itself. If it's the apocalypse, I'd start with the foundry so that you can make the stock out of old car wheels and stuff. You won't be able to make most of the electrical parts with those three tools, but you can use gasoline, steam, etc. instead. Or you can just pull electric motors out of Priuses and stuff at the junkyard. There's a book series about this, in fact: https://www.amazon.com/Build-Metal-Working-Scrap-Complete/dp/1878087355 e: and obviously you'd need a set of the regular hand tools -- hacksaws, files, chisels, sandpaper, etc. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 20:08
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And, apropos of the current conversation, you need accurate measuring tools. And something to calibrate them with. In theory though if you have something to burn, a source of metal ore, good clay, the means to lift and move heavy things, and sources for some other important raw materials (oil/grease, leather and/or rubber, water, alloying materials) you can kickstart your way from scratch. You can make a very very flat surface by rubbing three different rocks together. (You need three, not two, because with two, you'll wind up with one convex surface and one concave surface). You can use clay to make a functional bloomery smelter, make charcoal from wood to smelt ore, use bloomery iron/steel to make metal parts, make grindstones and flat surfaces with rock, create measuring tools, scribe good circles, use leather straps and stone and hunks of metal to make a primitive lathe, laboriously create carbon steel using bloomery + carburization, use carbon steel ground on stone to create metal cutting parts for your crude lathe, use the lathe to make better lathe parts, and to make mill parts, build a crude mill, use lathe and mill to make better smelting parts, kickstart a blast furnace forge process, and so on. I imagine even if you had 100% of the knowledge and all of the materials ready to hand, it would still be a process of many years - maybe decades - to get from scratch to something approaching an early 19th century metal shop, but you could get there. We know you can, because we did.
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Apr 21, 2017 21:19
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I'd love to see a group of hardworking experts bootstrap from a hole in the ground and a fire up to a fully tooled machine shop, like the primitive technology bloke but a team going balls out.
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Apr 21, 2017 21:47
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I would too. It's probably impossible to televise - it'd take years, require ready access to a number of natural resources that are generally in private hands these days, involve significant OSHA violations, and have to be wildly popular for the money to be worth it for the people giving up say five years of their lives to do it.
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Apr 21, 2017 22:00
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cakesmith handyman posted:I'd love to see a group of hardworking experts bootstrap from a hole in the ground and a fire up to a fully tooled machine shop, like the primitive technology bloke but a team going balls out. That guy miiight be the source of my line of thought  Building a shop from scratch was definitely my first idea, and I'll definitely need to see if my library has a copy of that book, but something a bit less ambitious would be fine too. My thought was for a kind of sharable technology, where someone would just need to borrow their neighbor's tools for a little bit to have their own set, which another neighbor could borrow, etc etc.
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Apr 21, 2017 23:35
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This isn't exactly what you're talking about, but I'm sure you'll find it interesting. http://opensourceecology.org/gvcs/
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Apr 21, 2017 23:43
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That's actually damned close to what I was trying to get at. Thanks!
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Apr 22, 2017 00:20
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Anybody know what the deal is with Mitutoyo's 700 series hobbyist calipers? Amazon's got the 700-113-10 for $89.91, only $0.99 less than the 500-196-30 linked earlier (which I can also heartily recommend, though I'm going 8" IP67 for my next set.) Maybe the 700 series had a place back when the pro line ran $150+, but now they just seem obsolete. But it seems people keep buying them: there are Amazon reviews from 2017. Maybe people prefer the color scheme?
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Apr 22, 2017 04:03
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A Proper Uppercut posted:I prefer analog, probably just because I'm used to it though. I'm sure I'd love digital if I picked one up. For me it went the other way, I had digital calipers, but the batteries draining was a PITA, and I felt more unsure if I had gotten the reading right looking at a display instead of a vernier or dial. I have a 150mm* vernier Mitutoyo I bought 2nd hand, it's my only mitutoyo but it's head and shoulders above the others. Vernier calipers should be alright to buy 2nd hand I think, I would like to own a dial indicator too. But I really don't want to own another digital caliper.... * =I'm in finland so metric is prefered but I can do imperial. With those prices, I am really going to need to find some good 2nd hand sources... My budget is super limited, it will probably take years to accumulate the tools. Perhaps I should invest in a 1-2-3 gage block so I can test out micrometers and other tools. I almost bought a 2nd hand, very old micrometer made by Mauser in Germany, mostly for the historical bit, but at 20 euros I couldn't afford it. I don't know what MSC is but we don't got it in Finland, I found one place that sells surface plates and for a 400x400mm it was like 300 euros, 400? Don't remember. His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 06:54
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His Divine Shadow posted:For me it went the other way, I had digital calipers, but the batteries draining was a PITA, and I felt more unsure if I had gotten the reading right looking at a display instead of a vernier or dial. I have a 150mm* vernier Mitutoyo I bought 2nd hand, it's my only mitutoyo but it's head and shoulders above the others. Vernier calipers should be alright to buy 2nd hand I think, I would like to own a dial indicator too. But I really don't want to own another digital caliper.... Oh, sorry, didn't realize you weren't in the US. Are these tools for home use or for work? Edit: searching classifieds in another language is new and exciting, how about these? https://m.tori.fi/vi/35639963.htm They look old but if they are decent quality they last forever, if you had a gage block you could do some test measurements with that would be a good idea. MSC is an industrial supply company, do you have an equivalent in your area? A Proper Uppercut fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 10:06
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Leperflesh posted:I imagine even if you had 100% of the knowledge That'd be one hell of a hefty tome. Ideally printed on metal pages like the inerocitor assembly manual from This Island Earth.
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Apr 22, 2017 10:07
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Going against the grain here; I've been really happy with my $20ish Chinese calipers for hobby use. It zeros consistently, and though the included batteries didn't last very long, they replacements last a reasonable amount of time (and you also have a long time before the display starting to dim and it totally dying, so plenty of time to buy a pack of batteries). I've been meaning to upgrade to Mitutoyos but they've been serving me well enough that I haven't bothered. Also, if shopping on Amazon I'd be weary of buying Mitutoyos from 3rd party sellers as there are plenty of Chinese fakes.
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Apr 22, 2017 15:46
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I've been using iGauging calipers and mics, they've been very accurate when referencing gauge blocks, good on batteries, and relatively cheap. They get my vote for general use stuff.
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Apr 22, 2017 20:19
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I've got a bunch of import crap, an old Starrett mic, a mitutoyo dial indicator and Fowler analog dial calipers. My generic import mic reads truer than the Starrett (it's well-loved so thread wear i reckon) and the Fowler seems just as good as the hardware store digital cal, albeit being much more fun to use b/c look at the needle swing round and round wheee e: also sth about older stuff that gets overlooked is that it seems less likely to have carbide jaws/anvils than a modern equivalent, which is a big deal if you're the kind of rear end in a top hat (like this guy) who's always too lazy to go get a height gauge when something needs quick scribing. My Fowler cal has steel jaws and right now there's a ~.0015 hook/bur protruding from the lower jaw cause I used it to scribe O1 bar on the lathe and dumb poo poo like that. Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Apr 23, 2017 |
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Apr 23, 2017 00:40
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Cheap calipers get used to scribe all the drat time. My good stuff gets treated well.
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Apr 23, 2017 01:54
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A Proper Uppercut posted:Oh, sorry, didn't realize you weren't in the US. Are these tools for home use or for work? Thanks for the tips, that tori.fi ad is thekind of stuff I am looking for, but that guys half a country away from me so not possible to go and check in person, dunno if poland is known for quality though. I rembered I have a set of round plug gages I bought many many years ago when I wanted to test somethings size... I could use those for verification I suppose, they are .4270 - .4310" and three .4510 - . 4520 " gages. Bought them from america infact (brand is Meyer), back when the euro was high, dollar was low and USPS hadn't jacked up their prices AF.
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Apr 23, 2017 07:33
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Anybody got any recommendations for... I don't know the proper term, mechanism reference, beyond 507 Mechanical Movements or Ingenious Mechanisms for Designers and Inventors? Not necessarily the detailed design specifications/requirements, more just the broad strokes.
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Apr 23, 2017 17:28
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I found this old 10€ chinese micrometer i bought at a local hardware store years ago, been in a drawer for ages, tested it against the .431" plug gage (10.9474mm) and it measures a hair under 10.95mm, as well as I can read the vernier scale. So pretty spot on IMO, good enough for home use I guess. I had a cheapo dial indicator though and it was worthless.
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Apr 24, 2017 04:58
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Ambrose Burnside posted:Anybody got any recommendations for... I don't know the proper term, mechanism reference, beyond 507 Mechanical Movements or Ingenious Mechanisms for Designers and Inventors? Not necessarily the detailed design specifications/requirements, more just the broad strokes. Like this? http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=45102&cat=1,46096,46100
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Apr 24, 2017 12:23
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Maybe, but the price says "it's a yes". unrelated: d-bits are cool as hell for something you can knock out with a grinder and a bit of patience (and maybe a lathe if you wanna do more than ream stock drill rod sizes)
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Apr 24, 2017 17:52
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Mitutoyo 2406 SB, a good indicator? I can get it locally for 46 euros. Accuracy thousands of a millimeter. Like this: http://www.msi-viking.com/Mitutoyo-2046SB-11-Standard-Type-Dial-Indicator-10mm-1mm-per-rev-0-100-Dial-Flat-Back_p_22697.html Asking since it seems cheaper than other Mitutoyo dial indicators that have been mentioned. IIRC mitutoyo stuff today can be made in China.
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Apr 25, 2017 09:35
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His Divine Shadow posted:Mitutoyo 2406 SB, a good indicator? I can get it locally for 46 euros. Accuracy thousands of a millimeter. Looks to be a pretty standard indicator. I think it'd be pretty good.
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Apr 25, 2017 15:21
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His Divine Shadow posted:Mitutoyo 2406 SB, a good indicator? I can get it locally for 46 euros. Accuracy thousands of a millimeter. Yea I agree with Hooper, that would be fine, assuming that's the resolution you're looking for. Pricing seems on par with what I would see around here. I generally use .002mm/.0001" resolution but I have to inspect pretty tight tolerance stuff a lot.
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Apr 25, 2017 15:29
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I'm repairing my mitutoyo 295 tube mic, and dropped the smallest black set screw on my black shop floor..... Guess this project goes back in to the drawer it came from.
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Apr 25, 2017 20:39
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I'd say "give the shop a magnet-sweep", but that's easier said than done if you don't actually have a wide bar magnet. I tried it with a rare earth fridge magnet and realized p fast that just using my eyeballs was faster than walking an inch-wide magnet across the shop sweep by sweep.
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Apr 25, 2017 21:05
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Did a magnet sweep around my bench, but there are a lot of cases and things on the ground. Too much to move for a small screw. I will make a few screws and see if I can guess at what the thread pitch is.
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Apr 26, 2017 00:12
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magnetic parts trays are worth their weight in neodymium
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Apr 26, 2017 00:15
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Sagebrush posted:magnetic parts trays are worth their weight in neodymium Right about $68/lb according to mineralprices.com... don't know if I'd go that far, but they're very useful. I've got a pile of them from HF. Now if they only worked on SS fasteners...
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Apr 26, 2017 01:20
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nerrrrrrrrds
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Apr 26, 2017 01:44
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I thought about buying one of those 4" diameter magnets on an extendable pole that HF has in their welding section specifically for this.
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Apr 26, 2017 19:59
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sharkytm posted:Right about $68/lb according to mineralprices.com... don't know if I'd go that far, but they're very useful. I've got a pile of them from HF. Now if they only worked on SS fasteners... Everything is magnetic when the field is strong enough! 
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Apr 26, 2017 20:39
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SwitchbladeKult posted:I thought about buying one of those 4" diameter magnets on an extendable pole that HF has in their welding section specifically for this. bruh. 15" wide path with wheels and a handle for $22. never not magnabroom. http://www.globalindustrial.com/g/janitorial-maintenance/floor-care/sweepers-magnetic/mini-magnetic-sweepers
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Apr 26, 2017 22:42
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I need to make a casting of the bore of a tapered tube. Have any of you got experience making something like this? Is there a product that I can fill the tube with, let it set, and then get it out without destroying anything and also retaining the measurements?
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Apr 26, 2017 22:54
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