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Deteriorata posted:And my point is that using Scripture as a weapon of judgment is a lot more fun when you're the one judging others, rather than the one being judged. Welcome to the world of homosexuals and other societal misfits who have had to endure that sort of arbitrary scorn their entire lives. I'm not discounting that. The thing that's confusing not just to me but to other posters in this thread is that other pastors from the same synod are not in agreement with my own pastor. And because of my reputation in this thread, more posters seem to want to side with my hardline pastor out of spite.
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Apr 22, 2017 01:20
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:I'm not discounting that. The thing that's confusing not just to me but to other posters in this thread is that other pastors from the same synod are not in agreement with my own pastor. And because of my reputation in this thread, more posters seem to want to side with my hardline pastor out of spite. Your pastor is wrong, but you're not going to change his mind. Find somewhere else to go to church. It's not a fight you're going to win.
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Apr 22, 2017 01:21
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:I'm not discounting that. The thing that's confusing not just to me but to other posters in this thread is that other pastors from the same synod are not in agreement with my own pastor. And because of my reputation in this thread, more posters seem to want to side with my hardline pastor out of spite. Don't talk to us, talk to pastors. We're just an online peanut gallery. This is down to you, God, and whoever you accept as a source of spiritual authority and counsel.
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Apr 22, 2017 01:21
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:I'm not discounting that. The thing that's confusing not just to me but to other posters in this thread is that other pastors from the same synod are not in agreement with my own pastor. And because of my reputation in this thread, more posters seem to want to side with my hardline pastor out of spite. oh jkl i'm on the same side i've always been on the one that's against you (serious talk i don't give a poo poo about your pastor i just think you're a piece of poo poo and find this funny as gently caress) (tangerine)
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Apr 22, 2017 01:24
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:I'm not discounting that. The thing that's confusing not just to me but to other posters in this thread is that other pastors from the same synod are not in agreement with my own pastor. And because of my reputation in this thread, more posters seem to want to side with my hardline pastor out of spite. All I did was point that just going by what you said, it was easy to think of a couple solid reasons to deny permission for a wedding and to be annoyed at going ahead without that permission. Knowing that your pastor doesn't want to let your fiancee marry at all, rather than not marry you, does change things, but you didn't mention that until after you'd gotten quite a lot of reactions already. Why would it be confusing that there's disagreement among pastors? Any time a denomination has at least three pastors there's going to be conflict over doctrine and discipline, isn't there? If anything, I would think you'd want to be putting together a case to present to your next pastor that you're not actually a horrible home-wrecking heretic, or whatever it is that you expect your current pastor would say if asked, not trying to score points in an argument with your current pastor that not only are you not likely to win, you don't even seem to need to win, since he won't be officiating at the wedding and you don't want to stay with his congregation anyway.
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Apr 22, 2017 01:41
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zonohedron posted:All I did was point that just going by what you said, it was easy to think of a couple solid reasons to deny permission for a wedding and to be annoyed at going ahead without that permission. Knowing that your pastor doesn't want to let your fiancee marry at all, rather than not marry you, does change things, but you didn't mention that until after you'd gotten quite a lot of reactions already. This is a refreshing perspective, and that last sentence is particularly spot-on. And thinking about it, my next pastor (the one performing the marriage counseling) already understands that about us. But when I do eventually transfer to his church, per Bel Canto's summary there may be strife with getting a recommendation in good standing. And I want to help defend against that anyway I can. I guess the red line for me isn't leaving the church entirely as some people here might be cruelly insinuating I do; it's leaving the community (i.e. synod) I grew up in.
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Apr 22, 2017 01:50
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:I'm not discounting that. The thing that's confusing not just to me but to other posters in this thread is that other pastors from the same synod are not in agreement with my own pastor. And because of my reputation in this thread, more posters seem to want to side with my hardline pastor out of spite. Let me preface this by saying I hold no personal animus toward you and your fiancee, and hope you find a good church home and have a happy marriage. I think a lot of the reason a lot of posters are upset is that from your posts you don't seem very self-aware of 1) the severity of adultery and your role in ending your fiancees previous marriage, and 2) how hypocritical this looks. Yes, I acknowledge you haven't posted much in this iteration of the thread at all, but you've espoused a lot of traditional/conservative sexual morals in this thread. Are you absolutely certain that your pastor's refusal to marry you two is based solely on her ex-husbands refusal to have sex? You seem to really be minimizing the role of your affair here. Yes, I understand you've confessed and are forgiven and I'm not going after you specifically for the act of adultery, we're all sinners. But, you seem to be asking "how do I convince my pastor that her ex-husband's refusal of sex is grounds for a divorce" while completely downplaying the fact that you and your fiancee's affair were also part of the divorce. Are you sure your pastor's thinking isn't "refusal of sex isn't grounds for divorce and also you and your fiancee directly contributed to ruining her previous marriage." You didn't even need to mention the adultery. If the issue is just the basis for divorce (ex-husband wasn't fulfilling his conjugal duties as per Scripture), why even bring the affair up in the thread?
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Apr 22, 2017 01:51
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Pellisworth posted:Let me preface this by saying I hold no personal animus toward you and your fiancee, and hope you find a good church home and have a happy marriage. Because it was only then that that pastor was brought into the picture, and that event along with his somewhat sexist downplaying of my fiancée's side of the story is what's influencing his thinking--not the gospel. That's why I feel, if it weren't for the "bigger" event coloring his judgement, he wouldn't be holding the stance that he is. Because like I mentioned, in Protestantism all sins are equal. As mentioned the ex-husband should have gone to counseling as my fiancée practically begged him to, but refused. At that point she should have divorced him or at least separated. But she didn't have the foresight or wisdom to consider that, and now we're all paying the price with this difficulty with my current pastor. I'm trying to work to make sure everyone on all sides understands why I don't feel guilt over marrying her. Because like I just said I'd prefer to stay in this synod. I guess at this point I may have to simply bank on numerical majority support from other clergy in his own synod if he won't listen. And failing even that (i.e. the pastor performing the marriage counseling decides his career isn't worth the effort in defending his decision to let us get married), the eject button would be ELCA. Also I understand this is a peanut gallery. While I was hoping some of the more even-tempered peanuts would pipe up (and some did and I'm grateful for that), I also was just needing a place to write it all down. To boot I have no alt accounts and have nothing to hide.
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Apr 22, 2017 02:04
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:Because it was only then that that pastor was brought into the picture, and that event along with his somewhat sexist downplaying of my fiancée's side of the story is what's influencing his thinking--not the gospel. you also seem to be blaming her edit: from your posts you appear to blaming her ex-husband for refusing sex, and your fiancee for not getting divorced sooner rather than acknowledging that your and her adultery might be a big part of this Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 02:07
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:there are other delicate elements in the balance, not the least of which is my status... and my dad's status... Jedi Knight Luigi posted:she didn't have the foresight or wisdom to consider that, and now we're all paying the price
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Apr 22, 2017 02:11
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Smoking Crow posted:All of you suck  Romans 3:10-12.
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Apr 22, 2017 02:15
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Pellisworth posted:you also seem to be blaming her I'm contending that after penitence and forgiveness, none of it should play any part in this. Smoking Crow is right: we're all idiots who should have made better decisions. But the reality of the situation is now to minimize whatever damage this pastor wants to do to us even after forgiveness has been rendered. I don't wanna hit eject and go to ELCA unless I absolutely have to.
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Apr 22, 2017 02:22
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:This is a refreshing perspective, and that last sentence is particularly spot-on. And thinking about it, my next pastor (the one performing the marriage counseling) already understands that about us. But when I do eventually transfer to his church, per Bel Canto's summary there may be strife with getting a recommendation in good standing. And I want to help defend against that anyway I can. I guess the red line for me isn't leaving the church entirely as some people here might be cruelly insinuating I do; it's leaving the community (i.e. synod) I grew up in. man it must really suck to have to leave the church community you feel incredibly attached to because they can't stand the idea that you and your partner could get married i can't even imagine what that must be like. now if you'll excuse me, i need to do my daily practice to show my devotion to amida and give thanks for his universal vow
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Apr 22, 2017 02:24
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I've decided to summarize via political cartoon:
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Apr 22, 2017 02:26
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honestly i think i should stop if only because cuckolding is a choice, and being gay/bi/trans is not
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Apr 22, 2017 02:25
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P-Mack posted:I've decided to summarize via political cartoon: Finally, a thread summary we can all understand.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:10
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While I enjoy reading the thread for the theological chat this conversation is reminding me how poorly I get on with the notion of divinely granted absolution.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:14
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OwlFancier posted:While I enjoy reading the thread for the theological chat this conversation is reminding me how poorly I get on with the notion of divinely granted absolution. Personally, I'm okay with saying "God may have forgiven you, but I still say you done hosed up. Godly absolution is not the same as mortal forgiveness." Absolution does not mean freedom from consequences.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:31
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And I am okay with my blinding and absolute hatred of oathbreakers regardless of their beliefs about the matter, but I remain at a distinctly chilly relationship with the concept of divine absolution because I cannot help but believe it encourages laxity.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:37
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do you think the same about temporal absolution? if your friend fucks up, can you forgive them?
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Apr 22, 2017 03:41
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I mean the alternative is "you hosed up once, enjoy your stay in hell"
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Apr 22, 2017 03:43
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OwlFancier posted:And I am okay with my blinding and absolute hatred of oathbreakers regardless of their beliefs about the matter, but I remain at a distinctly chilly relationship with the concept of divine absolution because I cannot help but believe it encourages laxity.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:45
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i mean technically there's not, in the sense that there's like a billion potential variants between divine absolution and eternal damnation. hell jail being a potential example, and a system similar to karma where one works out their demerits in future lives. so creating a polarity there seems a bit unnecessary since we haven't sussed out what exactly is wrong with the concept of divine absolution for this poster and therefore have no need for pigeonholing someone who cannot be pigeon holed masaka bakana impossible a poster who cannot be put in a pigeon's hole! haahuuuhugh haagh huugh hhuhuhuhuhuhuhu
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Apr 22, 2017 03:46
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Senju Kannon posted:hell jail
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Apr 22, 2017 03:48
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HEY GAIL posted:sounds even more bad rear end than regular jail You say that like there's a difference
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Apr 22, 2017 03:50
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:But she didn't have the foresight or wisdom to consider that, and now we're all paying the price
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Apr 22, 2017 03:53
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HEY GAIL posted:sounds even more bad rear end than regular jail hell jail worse than gay baby jail but not as bad as supermax
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Apr 22, 2017 03:57
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Can any of the erudite and/or Eastern Christians recommend me a good source for identifying and dealing with passions?
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Apr 22, 2017 04:37
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Thirteen Orphans posted:Can any of the erudite and/or Eastern Christians recommend me a good source for identifying and dealing with passions? https://www.amazon.com/Unseen-Warfare-Spiritual-Paradise-Lorenzo/dp/0913836524 weirdly enough it was catholic, but we picked it up and after the 16th century y'all didn't also, Unseen Warfare, Greater Jihad, and Death To The World are all good band names HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 04:43
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also potential call of duty subtitles
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Apr 22, 2017 04:47
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as far as i know, Unseen Warfare and Greater Jihad are the same thing, or very similar
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Apr 22, 2017 04:49
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HEY GAIL posted:unseen warfare Thanks!
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Apr 22, 2017 05:06
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Thirteen Orphans posted:Can any of the erudite and/or Eastern Christians recommend me a good source for identifying and dealing with passions? If you want Desert Fathers, Evagrius of Pontus is your guy. For early modern, one can't do better than Jacques Esprit, The Falsity of Human Virtue. And on the latter subject, just in passing, a shallow vindictiveness that conceals itself, quite poorly, behind a moralism equally lacking in depth seems to qualify.
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Apr 22, 2017 06:02
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Numerical Anxiety posted:If you want Desert Fathers, Evagrius of Pontus is your guy. For early modern, one can't do better than Jacques Esprit, The Falsity of Human Virtue. Thanks for this. The Desert Fathers are definitely a great source of wisdom.
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Apr 22, 2017 06:09
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Thanks for the replies to the sacraments thing, now I learned what Donatism is and also that some Berbers were Christian at some point. Apparently there's a trend of converting "back" to Christianity in Algeria at the moment, which is cool, because that's not even illegal there. Also smh at the adultery discussion. I don't even remember JKL's anti lgbt posts, but to claim that the gospels don't take a position against adultery and remarriage is a bit rich
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Apr 22, 2017 06:15
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pidan posted:remarriage the catholic/calvinist converts are trying to reverse this, ofc, because they don't give a poo poo about tradition
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Apr 22, 2017 06:42
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Hi christianity thread, hope I'm not interrupting anything... Just wanted to check in and say that yesterday I finally set the wheels in motion on getting baptized and joining a church!  Also I'm gay married
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Apr 22, 2017 06:53
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Public Serpent posted:Hi christianity thread, hope I'm not interrupting anything... Just wanted to check in and say that yesterday I finally set the wheels in motion on getting baptized and joining a church! Welcome to the flock, and congrats! I wish you and yours many years  which church, if you don't mind us asking?
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Apr 22, 2017 06:57
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Thank you! And I don't mind at all. The Church of Sweden, which is Evangelical Lutheran. When I was born it was still the state church, so I would have been a member already if my parents hadn't both left the church before then.
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Apr 22, 2017 07:34
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HEY GAIL posted:we're capped at four, but i never learned why I suppose it'd be to avoid a short-term marriage situation like they have in Iran, where you can basically have a promiscuous lifestyle sanctioned by the religious authorities, if you're a man. But don't Orthodox Christians have to go through some kind of process to remarry, even when their spouse has died? Also if a Catholic remarries without an anullment, and then later their ex-partner dies, does their later marriage retroactively become valid? Anyway, from what I've read the new testament's argument against divorce / remarriage doesn't seem to primarily be grounded in the continence thing. But rather it seems to be based on the fact that a man divorcing his wife in that time and place would essentially have kicked her out of the house to an uncertain fate, and doing that for anything but the gravest of reasons would be pretty horrible. So in our modern society, when being a male or female divorcee is not an existential threat to most people, I think it would be within the spirit of the law to be a bit more lenient about that issue. Also welcome to the flock, Public Serpent
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