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GaussianCopula posted:Why has Melenchon not endorsed Macron already? Let me tell you the tale of Jeremy Corbyn and The Brexit Breakfast
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Apr 23, 2017 19:52
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He's probably waiting until there's no chance he gets into the second round.
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Apr 23, 2017 19:54
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France will be great again.
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Apr 23, 2017 19:56
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Just because it's convoluted does not make it undemocratic per se. If the EU wanted to be democratic then it would scrap the Council of Minsters and make the Commission be elected by the Parliament instead of the European Council. I'll repeat myself, the overcomplicated processes exist to ensure that the respective Council's have time to intervene if they want to.
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Apr 23, 2017 19:55
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Pluskut Tukker posted:
I can't wait to see american libs arzy about AfD's 8% in the polls
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Apr 23, 2017 19:55
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Hey, it's been a lovely start to the evening. Let's make it right. Fillon's going to jail. Let's celebrate. https://twitter.com/jrbaudot/status/856206583214354437
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Apr 23, 2017 19:55
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Fiction posted:He's probably waiting until there's no chance he gets into the second round. He's waiting to launch Plan B. My codename is coolguy84 and I'm waiting for my marching orders.
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Apr 23, 2017 19:56
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Sky Shadowing posted:So the general consensus is that Le Pen will lose the run off, of course keeping in mind that the general consensus was that Hillary would defeat Trump, so take it with a grain of salt, yes?  FUN FACT: if US elections used the French system, Hillary Clinton would be the President of the USA right now.
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Apr 23, 2017 19:56
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Agnosticnixie posted:I can't wait to see american libs arzy about AfD's 8% in the polls Maybe they'll pick up 43% points over night? Remember Clinton? 
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Apr 23, 2017 19:57
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Cat Mattress posted:
Big if true
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Apr 23, 2017 19:57
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Macron's hosed it, hasn't he? e: like, how the gently caress are you going to convince the disenfranchised French youth and the racist olds to vote for another milquetoast Blairite? Venomous fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Apr 23, 2017 |
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Apr 23, 2017 19:58
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Lid posted:Let me tell you the tale of Jeremy Corbyn and The Brexit Breakfast Labour shot itself in the foot by using Brexit to try and oust Corbyn rather than bash the Tories. Then Corbyn took a chainsaw to said appendage by whipping for it in parliament. Everybody's to blame with British Labour!
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Apr 23, 2017 19:58
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Venomous posted:Macron's hosed it, hasn't he? Is this some weird cockney slang?
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Apr 23, 2017 19:58
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Venomous posted:Macron's hosed it, hasn't he? If by hosed it, you mean, kept the literal fascist out. Probably?
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Apr 23, 2017 19:59
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Venomous posted:Macron's hosed it, hasn't he? If you mean a dead pig, then yes. They all did, it's a rich people thing in Europe.
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Apr 23, 2017 19:59
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LemonDrizzle posted:Why would that lead to violence? Le Pen's 'gang' don't strike me as very good at dealing with bad news. And I have a very bad feeling that various terrorists around the world are planning all they can to help her win.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:00
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MiddleOne posted:If the EU wanted to be democratic then it would scrap the Council of Minsters and make the Commission be elected by the Parliament instead of the European Council. I'll repeat myself, the overcomplicated processes exist to ensure that the respective Council's have time to intervene if they want to. So you'd end with institutions where the member states with the largest population will be best represented and abolish the national vetos that member states can effectively exercise in the Council of Ministers. I don't think that citizens of the smaller member states will find that very democratic, since they'll just be outvoted all the time.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:01
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Cat Mattress posted:
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Apr 23, 2017 20:02
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Venomous posted:Macron's hosed it, hasn't he? He is going to be the next president of France, so yes, he is super hosed.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:02
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:If you mean a dead pig, then yes. They all did, it's a rich people thing in Europe. Oh, the Bullingdon's been exporting to the continent has it? Another thing we should probably apologise for.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:03
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TheRat posted:Le Pen's 'gang' don't strike me as very good at dealing with bad news. And I have a very bad feeling that various terrorists around the world are planning all they can to help her win. The FN has literally been a thing since the 80s.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:04
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Aurubin posted:Labour shot itself in the foot by using Brexit to try and oust Corbyn rather than bash the Tories. Then Corbyn took a chainsaw to said appendage by whipping for it in parliament. Everybody's to blame with British Labour! There was also Jeremy's running dead opposition to it because he was always for it (for different philosophical reasons) so when he "lost" he pulled the political equivalent of an "aw shucks i'm sorry guys guess we're bound now".
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Apr 23, 2017 20:03
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GaussianCopula posted:He is going to be the next president of France, so yes, he is super hosed. Imagine putting a captain's costume on and boarding the titanic a a few moments after the iceberg was hit
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Apr 23, 2017 20:03
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Agnosticnixie posted:The FN has literally been a thing since the 80s. One might make the argument that things are rather different lately
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Apr 23, 2017 20:05
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julian assflange posted:Imagine putting a captain's costume on and boarding the titanic a a few moments after the iceberg was hit Somehow if Le Pen was in the lead i don't think this would be the metaphor.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:06
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TheRat posted:One might make the argument that things are rather different lately
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Apr 23, 2017 20:08
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TheRat posted:One might make the argument that things are rather different lately Her results are on the low end of her margin of error despite a terrorist attack in the middle of Paris literally the day before election day. You would have to nuke the overseas and and atlantic coast to give her a chance and that's mostly because then the people who are least likely to vote for her would be dead.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:08
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Lid posted:Somehow if Le Pen was in the lead i don't think this would be the metaphor. She would be diving in after it?
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Apr 23, 2017 20:07
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GaussianCopula posted:He is going to be the next president of France, so yes, he is super hosed. Yea Macron winning the first round means Le Pen has an almost zero chance of winning now
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Apr 23, 2017 20:08
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Agnosticnixie posted:Her results are on the low end of her margin of error despite a terrorist attack in the middle of Paris literally the day before election day. You would have to nuke the overseas and and atlantic coast to give her a chance and that's mostly because then the people who are least likely to vote for her would be dead. I didn't say she would win, I said there would be violence.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:09
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Presumably down to differential rates of counting in different places, but huh. https://twitter.com/afneil/status/856222208003276800
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Apr 23, 2017 20:10
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TheRat posted:I didn't say she would win, I said there would be violence. There's not going to be any violence from her supporters, hombre. But some fash might get bashed...
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Apr 23, 2017 20:11
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XyrlocShammypants posted:Yea Macron winning the first round means Le Pen has an almost zero chance of winning now finding this awfy hard to believe since there's still the small matter of (a) racists and (b) disenfranchised leftists, both of whom are obliged to vote for another neoliberal dipshit because ?????? granted, the FN are fascists, but Macron just seems like business as usual and I really don't see why folks are so convinced that he's going to trounce Le Pen at this point
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Apr 23, 2017 20:12
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Venomous posted:finding this awfy hard to believe since there's still the small matter of (a) racists and (b) disenfranchised leftists, both of whom are obliged to vote for another neoliberal dipshit because ?????? Do you really not think disenfranchised leftists won't vote for the neoliberal over the fascist? Maybe there'll be higher rates of abstentions, but...
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Apr 23, 2017 20:14
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People who put racism in front of their politics already voted for their preferred candidates and no leftist is going to carry water for someone who literally waxes nostalgic for nazi occupation.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:16
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CottonWolf posted:Do you really not think disenfranchised leftists won't vote for the neoliberal over the fascist? Maybe there'll be higher rates of abstentions, but... Lets say I'm a slightly racist, poor, working class leftist. How easy would you say it is for me to pick Macron over Le Pen:  ?
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Apr 23, 2017 20:17
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TheRat posted:Lets say I'm a slightly racist, poor, working class leftist. How easy would you say it is for me to pick Macron over Le Pen: lol that compass ahahahah
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Apr 23, 2017 20:17
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I'm a bit confused by how all the candidates are taking the estimations from the polling companies as 100% accurate gospel. Are there provisional results from the actual vote counting? Surely the margins aren't big enough to take things for granted
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Apr 23, 2017 20:19
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MiddleOne posted:I don't think the regular's of this thread like you and I are in any capacity a representative sample of any electorate. Well, no. First off, let's not kid ourselves and pretend that if you made flowcharts of most EU democracies where you included the courts and auditor systems, you wouldn't get something rather similar. The only added layer that makes Europe more complicated is that it arises from the very fact that it is Europe; i.e. 28 (for now) Member States who all get a say at various levels in the process. That seems entirely reasonable to me, and the diagram you included should actually have a big red text at the bottom saying "YOUR GOVERNMENT WORKS FOR YOU IN BRUSSELS AND IS CO-RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HAPPENS THERE, NEVER MIND WHAT THEY PRETEND AT HOME". The decision making process is structured in such a way to give Member States and Parliament the most input at every stage, which is sort of necessary if you want to create legitimacy in the process, yes? While you may not like your current government, or the decisions it makes at home or in Brussels, you can't deny that the Will Of Your Country - from Malta to Germany - isn't heard. This is exactly why the structure is the way it is. The process wasn't designed to be obtrusive or slow, the process was designed for input along the way; blame the Member States (for the most part) for (ab)using that system to make it as such. The EU is, so far as I can tell, a not-too-bad reflection of most of the governments of the EU. That their decisions and positions aren't yours, I agree - they aren't mine either. But that doesn't mean that you, through your own elected MEPs (if you bothered to vote) and your government, doesn't get a say. Finally, the importance of having a difference between Council of Ministers and Council of Heads of State should be obvious; the first one goes into more detail and handles individual legislative pieces that concern their area of responsibility (finance, agriculture, fisheries, culture etc), and the Heads of State meet to set the overall course and strategy. That kind of design makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? Maybe they should've named them the Council of Ministers and the other the Heads of State Slumber Camp (to avoid repetition of the word Council), but otherwise it's perfectly sensible. The reason, as was pointed out before, why most people don't understand the EU process is because generally they don't understand their own home processes, especially if you add in the courts and auditors checks. XyrlocShammypants posted:Yea Macron winning the first round means Le Pen has an almost zero chance of winning now Write that down now, with a date on it and pray you're right. After last year, and given some of the moods and undercurrents in France and the EU at the moment, I'm not comfortable anymore. Plus, next thing we'll have is Italian elections, and we will all be back here again, praying that M5S doesn't win. Junior G-man fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Apr 23, 2017 |
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Apr 23, 2017 20:17
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Pluskut Tukker posted:So you'd end with institutions where the member states with the largest population will be best represented and abolish the national vetos that member states can effectively exercise in the Council of Ministers. I don't think that citizens of the smaller member states will find that very democratic, since they'll just be outvoted all the time. So your fear is that the EU would function like literally every other parliamentary democracy on the planet?
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Apr 23, 2017 20:18
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