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I support Frank Cho and Adam Hughes. They have been gifted by the hand of God and are doing divine work. Thank you. Namaste.
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Apr 24, 2017 00:58
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I like Adam Hughes quite a lot unless he's been involved in some douchefuckery that I'm not aware of. He does big booby cheesecake pin-ups but they don't seem, like, actively contemptuous of the female characters involved. That I know of. e: And for that matter, neither is most of Cho's work to be totally fair. His personality is what sinks that ship. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Apr 24, 2017 |
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Apr 24, 2017 01:04
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Wait did they make Magneto a nazi too??
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Apr 24, 2017 01:10
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magneto is moonlighting as professor xavier right now; I don't think he's involved in secret war at all?
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Apr 24, 2017 01:14
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Manatee Cannon posted:magneto is moonlighting as professor xavier right now; I don't think he's involved in secret war at all? I guess it's based on a variant cover? https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/03/06/magneto-joining-hydra-secret-empire-nick-spencer/
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Apr 24, 2017 01:18
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hadn't seen that so idk then. frankly making magneto a hydra agent is way worse than making captain america one, so I really hope that it's just a variant cover and not something that happens in secret war
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Apr 24, 2017 01:20
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There hasn't been a single thing to indicate it's anything but a variant cover that has nothing to do with the actual content of the comic.
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Apr 24, 2017 01:25
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How recent is the 1:1 conflation of Hydra with real-world fascism/nazism? Is it an outgrowth of the movies? Because, like-- I'm reflexively also iffy about the hypothetical scenario in which Magneto is a member of Hydra, but I don't think I feel that, say, the Kingpin, or Mentallo, or Hydra Bob are read as necessarily bound up in a far-right ideology on the basis of their past association with the group. So in a way tying <x> to Hydra and tying <x> to fascism is kind of contingent on equating Hydra with fascism, which as far as I know, is relatively recent? I wonder how this storyline would go down if Hydra was still treated as kind of a campy S.P.E.C.T.R.E. style group instead of a nazi analogue, and if that turn was ultimately an ill-advised creative decision, or whether or not this sort of bifurcation is totally in my head. edit: Like, totally silly thought experiment, but would people feel differently about this event if Steve Rogers was revealed to be a long term sleeper agent for AIM (let's pretend for the sake of this that AIM are still broadly a group of bad guys and not Sunspot's employees)? How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Apr 24, 2017 |
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Apr 24, 2017 01:31
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As far as I'm aware, Hydra has pretty much always had ties to the Nazis since their introduction? In any case, had it been AIM, the Hellfire Club, the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, Skrulls, Kree, or basically any group besides an organization that has expressly had Red Skull as its leader for a large part of its publication history then I doubt the outcry would have been anywhere near as bad as this, if at all. I still wouldn't be getting it since I'd rather avoid supporting event comics unless I hear they're really good. This one just has an extra layer of disgust associated with it for me.
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Apr 24, 2017 01:38
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Gatts posted:I support Frank Cho and Adam Hughes. They have been gifted by the hand of God and are doing divine work. Frank Cho is a huge rear end in a top hat and I hope he falls in a ditch. His work is not really the issue.
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Apr 24, 2017 01:41
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Archyduke posted:edit: Like, totally silly thought experiment, but would people feel differently about this event if Steve Rogers was revealed to be a long term sleeper agent for AIM (let's pretend for the sake of this that AIM are still broadly a group of bad guys and not Sunspot's employees)? Yes, I think that's a fair assessment. It might still be a stupid story but it wouldn't have the same horrible connotations; Hydra is inextricably linked to the Nazis/fascism writ-large and no amount of retconning is ever going to change that.
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Apr 24, 2017 01:45
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Who would ever want to separate HYDRA from Nazis? They're only fun villains because they're Nazis. Anything else and they're just AIM or whatever.
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Apr 24, 2017 01:50
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avengers idea mechanics did nothing wrong
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Apr 24, 2017 01:55
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SMP posted:Who would ever want to separate HYDRA from Nazis? They're only fun villains because they're Nazis. Anything else and they're just AIM or whatever. I think hypothetically if you seperated out the nazi stuff there's enough mythology that Hickman set up in Secret Warriors to cobble together a fun Illuminati-type group out of the pieces. I don't think the camp elements of it really depend on explicit evocations of fascism either. That is, I think you could do both Kraken and Hydra Bob without fascist imagery and in fact I think the fascist imagery really makes the latter character, in particular, kind of incoherent. I should really reread Secret Warriors because I don't know, maybe I'm wrong about the extent to which all of Hickman's deep-history stuff stands apart from the nazi angle.
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Apr 24, 2017 01:57
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Nazi or not they're still obviously totalitarian fascists.
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Apr 24, 2017 02:32
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In non-Nazi talk I uh, really liked the Star Lord series. Some people have complained that it was shuttered before it's time, but it feels like a perfect length to me. It was such a mix of high beats and low beats that the emotional moments come out of nowhere (e.g. the two panels with Rocket talking about time being your friend taking place in... Flapperdoodles) and hit that much harder because of it. I thought the series was going to be about Quill being "awesome" and just doing whatever while ignoring the societal norms around him, kind of like Longshot Saves the Universe, but much worse. Instead it was a grounded (ha!) story about people, that barely needed the involvement of super powers and aliens at all.
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Apr 24, 2017 02:56
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If there was any question, in the first Captain America film the explicitly show them as the Nazi special science division gone rogue. So they're like, Ultra Nazis.
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Apr 24, 2017 03:10
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Even without Hickman's secret history, HYDRA when they were first introduced were essentially SPECTRE with a fresh coat of paint... except before long the guy in the Blofeld role was Baron von Strucker, noted ex-Nazi, so there's always been that link.Not in the very first HYDRA story, but by like the second or third.
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Apr 24, 2017 03:15
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Rhyno posted:If there was any question, in the first Captain America film the explicitly show them as the Nazi special science division gone rogue. So they're like, Ultra Nazis. In the first Captain America film Bucky is also Steve's older brother/protector figure. So let's not apply that to the comics. In the comics the line between Hydra and Nazis really depends on what era and who's writing it and the story they're writing. Sometimes they are Nazis, sometimes they're not, sometimes they're using the Nazis, sometimes the Nazis are using them. It's been handled many different ways. For the longest time they were just a rival spy organization to SHIELD. Then in recent years they're a centuries old supernatural cult, also the main adversary to SHIELD. The only thing really consistent is their ties with SHIELD.
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Apr 24, 2017 03:18
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Archyduke posted:How recent is the 1:1 conflation of Hydra with real-world fascism/nazism? Is it an outgrowth of the movies? If I remember correctly, they were basically the ideological descendants of the Nazis from jump street, especially once Baron Strucker became their leader. There have certainly been stories with HYDRA cells that weren't one-for-one Nazis (i.e. Monica Rappacini's HYDRA is much more specifically anti-capitalist/Western civilization than anything else, and is actually pretty ethnically diverse), but they're almost always plug-and-play fascist terrorists. The MCU is probably responsible for HYDRA getting a bit more prominence in recent years, since for a long time, it was one of several plug-and-play Evil Organizations to be used whenever you wanted a bunch of masked goons to punch. The current more mystical version, however, is relatively new and I don't remember when it started. I want to say it was from Mark Millar's "Enemy of the State" story in Wolverine, where HYDRA and the Hand ended up working together, but I wouldn't be surprised if something predated that.
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Apr 24, 2017 03:17
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X-O posted:In the first Captain America film Bucky is also Steve's older brother/protector figure. So let's not apply that to the comics. In the comics the line between Hydra and Nazis really depends on what era and who's writing it and the story they're writing. Sometimes they are Nazis, sometimes they're not, sometimes they're using the Nazis, sometimes the Nazis are using them. It's been handled many different ways. For the longest time they were just a rival spy organization to SHIELD. Then in recent years they're a centuries old supernatural cult, also the main adversary to SHIELD. The only thing really consistent is their ties with SHIELD. Sorry, I should have said the public, non comic reader's perception of Hydra.
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Apr 24, 2017 03:19
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Rhyno posted:Sorry, I should have said the public, non comic reader's perception of Hydra. Also keep in mind that this is the audience that Marvel is explicitly trying to gateway into the comics.
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Apr 24, 2017 03:25
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Waffleman_ posted:Also keep in mind that this is the audience that Marvel is explicitly trying to gateway into the comics. yea even if you don't think the nazi link is in the comics, when so much of their model is currently 'let's get our movie fans reading and buying our comics' the fact that they are explicitly nazis there counts. Like, at best among pure comic canon poo poo they're linked but independent but still a heavy authoritarian focused form of fascists who don't much care for people not like them, but as far as the majority of fans go they're at the very least the dudes who are literal nazis in the movies.
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Apr 24, 2017 04:10
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Spoiler leak from Secret Empire Hydra-Cap gets Mjolnir. 
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Apr 24, 2017 04:14
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Onmi posted:Spoiler leak from Secret Empire Yeah we talked about that a couple weeks ago in the main chat thread. Rhyno even posted the pages.
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Apr 24, 2017 04:14
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X-O posted:Yeah we talked about that a couple weeks ago in the main chat thread. Rhyno even posted the pages. Ah, I missed that. Mostly because I don't follow the main chat thread.
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Apr 24, 2017 04:16
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yea I'm behind on that too and...what the gently caress??? That's maybe one of the worst ways for that story to go!
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Apr 24, 2017 04:18
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The read order I'm following for Claremont's X-Men mentions that people generally hate Kitty Pryde and Wolverine, and I can't really see any part of it that stuck out as being especially bad?
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Apr 24, 2017 04:22
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sexpig by night posted:yea I'm behind on that too and...what the gently caress??? That's maybe one of the worst ways for that story to go! I'm pretty sure it's deliberate at this point, what with calling Nazi-Cap "worthy" and all. Giving him something that white nationalists have been co-opting as a symbol (Nazis and the like are huge fetishists for their misunderstanding of Nordic symbols and whatnot, with Thor's hammer being a big one) is probably not an accident either. Nick Spencer is trash. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Apr 24, 2017 |
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Apr 24, 2017 04:27
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Scaramouche posted:In non-Nazi talk I uh, really liked the Star Lord series. Some people have complained that it was shuttered before it's time, but it feels like a perfect length to me. It was such a mix of high beats and low beats that the emotional moments come out of nowhere (e.g. the two panels with Rocket talking about time being your friend taking place in... Flapperdoodles) and hit that much harder because of it. I thought the series was going to be about Quill being "awesome" and just doing whatever while ignoring the societal norms around him, kind of like Longshot Saves the Universe, but much worse. Instead it was a grounded (ha!) story about people, that barely needed the involvement of super powers and aliens at all. But Star-Lord was always meant to be a 6 issue mini  Why would people be complaining it ended too early. But yea, it was fantastic, and I loved how Anka found ways to get Quill half naked all the time, even if the script didn't call for it. Also more Brand is always welcome. Roth posted:The read order I'm following for Claremont's X-Men mentions that people generally hate Kitty Pryde and Wolverine, and I can't really see any part of it that stuck out as being especially bad? I find people who came to X-men in the 90s tend to hate Kitty becuase she was pretty much a non-entity during that time and make fun of us who grew up with her being part of the team, and being the character that was closest to our age so there's affection towards her. But Wolverine? Who the hell hated Wolverine at that time?
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Apr 24, 2017 04:30
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Roth posted:The read order I'm following for Claremont's X-Men mentions that people generally hate Kitty Pryde and Wolverine, and I can't really see any part of it that stuck out as being especially bad? Kitty Pryde and Wolverine is a solid 'fine'. I really wish, considering how well those two already worked together when it happened, that Kitty having a really solid 'it's time for me to grow the gently caress up and be an x-man and not a sidekick' story could just happen normally and not need ninja magic brainwashing and...I forgot was the main bad guy just a dude in a demon mask or an ACTUAL japanese demon? Regardless I'd say it's a solid story that does a good job of 'growing up' Kitty but I wish it could have just happened normally instead of needing to be wrapped in a weird brainwashing ninja assassin thing. I think it would have been stronger if it stuck with 'my dad's in trouble with the yakuza, I need to help him because I'm a real loving superhero and not just some dorky kid who hangs out at the school'.
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Apr 24, 2017 04:32
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twistedmentat posted:I find people who came to X-men in the 90s tend to hate Kitty becuase she was pretty much a non-entity during that time and make fun of us who grew up with her being part of the team, and being the character that was closest to our age so there's affection towards her. But Wolverine? Who the hell hated Wolverine at that time? Pretty sure he's referring to the miniseries. http://www.comicbookdb.com/title.php?ID=1028 I've read it at least twice and could not tell you a single thing about it.
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Apr 24, 2017 04:31
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Just to throw it out there that members of the alt-right and other comparable hate groups don't necessarily call themselves "Nazis" or claim direct, 1:1 affiliation with the 20th century Nazi party. Not in public, certainly. e: To clarify, they do this in order to come across more fluffy and palatable and legitimate to mainstream sensibilities, by distancing themselves and their ideals from a universally-reviled group. It's mostly their opponents who have been rebranding them (or re-rebranding them, if you will) as bona fide Nazis, no-for-real-you're-just-Nazis-so-don't-pretend-you-aren't Nazis and refusing to bend or compromise on that moniker. So you can see how it might come across to these people when Nick Spencer's go-to defense for this Hydra Cap storyline is that Hydra are totally not Nazis, guys, for real! They're something totally different and you're just being nitpicky if you say they're Nazis! BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Apr 24, 2017 |
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Apr 24, 2017 04:31
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twistedmentat posted:I find people who came to X-men in the 90s tend to hate Kitty becuase she was pretty much a non-entity during that time and make fun of us who grew up with her being part of the team, and being the character that was closest to our age so there's affection towards her. But Wolverine? Who the hell hated Wolverine at that time? No, not the individual characters, the mini-series titled Kitty Pryde and Wolverine. It's about Kitty and Wolverine in Japan dealing with a ninja sorcerer. It was kind of surreal at points.
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Apr 24, 2017 04:31
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Jordan7hm posted:Pretty sure he's referring to the miniseries. http://www.comicbookdb.com/title.php?ID=1028 Oh that, yea I can see that. It's, weird. I honestly think in my mind it became a combination of the other Kitty and Logan adventures and when I reread it a few years ago, I realized it was nothing like I remembered.
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Apr 24, 2017 04:33
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one big gold star I'll give that series, changing the art to fix the more 'gritty' tone and all was very smart, if it had been a typical X-Men comic style at that time it'd be much more goofy than serious. e: also it tends to be kinda dustbin'd because there have been like fifty different 'Kitty and Logan team up, Kitty needs to work through her feelings of being treated as a child by her peers and wanting to stand on her own feet' stories and chances are you can find a better one even if you like Kitty and Wolverine. sexpig by night fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Apr 24, 2017 |
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Apr 24, 2017 04:34
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On the plus side I think we're finally seeing people get loving sick of marvels poo poo. >1. Batman #21 >2. All Star Batman #9 >3. Superman #21 >4. Secret Empire #0 >5. Justice League #19 >6. Redneck #1 >7. Super Sons #3 >8. Nightwing #19 >9. Monstress #11 >10. Captain America: Steve Rogers #16 The current best sellers list for 4/23/17. I'm sure it didn't do "Bad" but when your first issue of your new event that you intend to brand across your entire line for the next couple of months didn't top the chart...
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Apr 24, 2017 04:40
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twistedmentat posted:But Star-Lord was always meant to be a 6 issue mini No, it wasn't. http://zdarsky.tumblr.com/post/159720103556/it-was-a-short-ride-but-drat-it-was-fun-tomorrow Onmi posted:On the plus side I think we're finally seeing people get loving sick of marvels poo poo. Those are just some random shops that Bleeding Cool polled. Sales for this week are definitely not out yet. But Batman is pretty much going to beat everything every month. It's Batman.
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Apr 24, 2017 04:40
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I feel like "People are finally sick of Marvel's bullshit" is a thing that gets said with every new sales chart.
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Apr 24, 2017 04:41
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Roth posted:I feel like "People are finally sick of Marvel's bullshit" is a thing that gets said with every new sales chart. I pray at the shrine every day and nothing changes...
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Apr 24, 2017 04:43
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