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RJWaters2 posted:The tape is not the crime anymore. He's off to the hoosgow for breaking and entering and destruction of property. Jimmy broke down the door because he feared Chuck was having a mental health crisis. Chuck was in a really bad place. Jimmy thought his  story helped, but he learns from Ernesto that it didn’t.He believed that Chuck was an imminent risk to himself.
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Apr 24, 2017 11:14
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Chuck is actually the one who is right in this whole thing tho
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Apr 24, 2017 11:14
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TBeats posted:Chuck is actually the one who is right in this whole thing tho And this is why this is one of the best written shows on tv.
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Apr 24, 2017 11:16
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Platystemon posted:Jimmy broke down the door because he feared Chuck was having a mental health crisis. That's fine--until he calls Chuck a piece of poo poo and breaks into his desk and finds the tape (or what he believes to be the tape) and starts unreeling it in front of witnesses.
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Apr 24, 2017 11:56
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Like Tony Soprano, Jimmy is a likable rear end in a top hat (and a criminal, though nowhere near as bad ofc), so I get rooting for him and I do too myself. But this doesn't mean everyone else is a horrible monster. Jimmy blew it at the other law firm where he was recommended by Chuck/Hamlin(?), and then made Chuck look like an incompetent moron in front of the client by attacking the one thing Chuck prides himself on, while knowing he's in a fragile mental state. All to win a client for his girlfriend through fraud that she'd have trouble actually managing herself. What a guy.
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Apr 24, 2017 12:56
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Already covered in the thread I'm sure, but Kim knowing about it and benefiting from it makes her an accessory. I'm sure Howard or whoever will find a way to bring Kim down if Chuck goes down, and that'll be the final straw for Jimmy. I'm not sure how it'd work though, having Kim go down for accessory to a crime that Jimmy didn't get tried for.
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Apr 24, 2017 13:20
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mobby_6kl posted:Like Tony Soprano, Jimmy is a likable rear end in a top hat (and a criminal, though nowhere near as bad ofc), so I get rooting for him and I do too myself. But this doesn't mean everyone else is a horrible monster. Jimmy blew it at the other law firm where he was recommended by Chuck/Hamlin(?), and then made Chuck look like an incompetent moron in front of the client by attacking the one thing Chuck prides himself on, while knowing he's in a fragile mental state. All to win a client for his girlfriend through fraud that she'd have trouble actually managing herself. What a guy. i thought jimmy committing fraud to get back what chuck took from kim by just being good at his job was a pretty good comparison of jimmy and chuck. jimmy's goal with the fraud was the exact same as chuck's "Yeah I would go with Kim too! *wink wink*" sales pitch and i'm surprised this point doesn't get talked about more.
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Apr 24, 2017 13:24
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mobby_6kl posted:Like Tony Soprano, Jimmy is a likable rear end in a top hat (and a criminal, though nowhere near as bad ofc), so I get rooting for him and I do too myself. But this doesn't mean everyone else is a horrible monster. Jimmy blew it at the other law firm where he was recommended by Chuck/Hamlin(?), and then made Chuck look like an incompetent moron in front of the client by attacking the one thing Chuck prides himself on, while knowing he's in a fragile mental state. All to win a client for his girlfriend through fraud that she'd have trouble actually managing herself. What a guy. After Chuck told him that his degree is a joke, that he's an insult to the profession and prevented him from having a career at HHM. Then HHM demoted his girlfriend because Jimmy ran a tacky commercial and when she landed a big client to redeem herself they ignored her. THEN Jimmy embarrassed Chuck and made sure his girlfriend could leave with the client she herself landed.
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Apr 24, 2017 13:29
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Chuck's an rear end in a top hat too, just a smug one unlike Jimmy which is why everyone hates him. You could trace their history back to when they were playing in a sandbox, but the tl;dr is that none of that poo poo above is illegal fraud, just bad management at most.
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Apr 24, 2017 13:51
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Why did Don Eladio let Hector take a piss in his pool
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Apr 24, 2017 15:27
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Does Jimmy still have medical power of attorney over Chuck?
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Apr 24, 2017 15:28
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Secret Agent X23 posted:That's fine--until he calls Chuck a piece of poo poo and breaks into his desk and finds the tape (or what he believes to be the tape) and starts unreeling it in front of witnesses.
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Apr 24, 2017 15:50
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mobby_6kl posted:Chuck's an rear end in a top hat too, just a smug one unlike Jimmy which is why everyone hates him. You could trace their history back to when they were playing in a sandbox, but the tl;dr is that none of that poo poo above is illegal fraud, just bad management at most. It's hard to tell because it's definitely more galling, and Chuck is so unsympathetic that it's hard to see Jimmy's deception as being that bad in the end, when it was really emotionally lovely for Chuck. The point is, saying HHM/Chuck did nothing illegal has little bearing on how sympathetic and "right" they are. Likewise, Jimmy breaking the law isn't what makes him wrong. His willingness to not care and be irresponsible in general are what make him "wrong," and illegal stuff is only tangentially related to that. The fact that Jimmy was trying to fix a perceived injustice against his girlfriend is way more sympathetic and possibly "better" than HHM just bureaucratically making GBS threads on Kim, even if Jimmy committed a crime and HHM didn't. But talking about legal matters: SpiderHyphenMan posted:Once again, the defense for that is "I was upset at my mentally ill brother for using his illness as a way to manipulate me emotionally because he couldn't fathom the idea that he made a mistake. This was a family dispute with no illegal activity taking place." And even if you want to say he broke down the door because he was worried for his brother (which nothing he says supports), breaking into a locked drawer is also a crime, and there's really no spinning that. Though thinking about it, if he was to really stress the "concern for his brother" angle, he could say he learned there was an electronic recording device and was scared for his brother's health. He'd have to get the witness allegations about what he was saying dismissed, but the "safety" angle seems like it has more legs than the manipulation angle. As a bonus this might get Chuck to call expert witnesses calling electromagnetic sensitivity bullshit. Eiba fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Apr 24, 2017 |
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Apr 24, 2017 16:16
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Once again, the defense for that is "I was upset at my mentally ill brother for using his illness as a way to manipulate me emotionally because he couldn't fathom the idea that he made a mistake. This was a family dispute with no illegal activity taking place." That's a reply to it, but I'm not sure it's a defense. If I'm a juror and he convinces me he broke in because he was legit worried about Chuck's well-being and that was the only way apparent way to deal with the situation, fine. I would sit there and listen and think, he did what he had to do. I would have done the same thing. Any of us would. I just don't see that he has that available to him because of what he did once he got inside. If he tells me he's upset at Chuck over emotional manipulation, then, well, what he did doesn't seem entirely consistent with that either. I guess it comes closer to something that might be feasible, though, and maybe Jimmy can sell it if he needs to. But even if I believe it, I'm far less likely to be sympathetic. I'm sitting there thinking, okay, but you're a grown-rear end man. You should act like it.
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Apr 24, 2017 16:24
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I bet you're all wrong and chuck drops the charges.
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Apr 24, 2017 16:28
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Somehow, someway, squat cobbler will save the day.
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Apr 24, 2017 16:34
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When I say "defense" I'm talking about the things that Jimmy can legally do (not that I believe his options are that limited) to defend himself in front of a jury of his peers in a court of law. His defense will be that the break and enter, the destruction of property, and the threat to burn the house down, are all made not in a premeditated attempt to commit or cover up a crime, but as an impassioned response to being wronged by a family member. They are crimes, but let's talk proportionality. Let's talk justice. Chuck and the prosecution will argue that Jimmy's actions are those of a guilty man wanting to cover up his actions. Chuck's earnest belief was that his brother would attempt to steal the tape in the dead of night, and the prosecution will try to pretend that what Jimmy did is functionally no different from if he had. But it fundamentally is. There is no reasonable doubt as to what Jimmy did in front of those witnesses. But there is plenty of reasonable doubt as to why he did it. In this case, being caught in the cover-up does not prove the crime, the switch from 1261 to 1216. And that's where Jimmy starts doing things like calling Howard to the stand and asking him what he really thought when Chuck played the tape for him and had him go along with this crazy plan that had him run through a backyard and over a fence. And having that doctor come in and testify about the provable psychosomatic nature of Chuck's illness, demonstrating the lengths Chuck will go to to convince others and himself that he is not mentally fallible, be it a mental illness or a filing error. Then we get into Chuck's first betrayal: keeping Jimmy from HHM and having Howard be the fall guy. The lengths Jimmy went to to take care of Chuck for a year and a half. How much he obviously loves his brother. And how despite everything, Chuck blames him for everything terrible in his life. It's enough to make anybody bust down a door and commit minor property damage. That doesn't make them not crimes, but are you gonna disbar him for that? Hell no. All of the above requires one thing: Never give into guilt. Jimmy must never show that he is even entertaining the notion that anything on that tape was anything other than a man desperately trying to talk his brother off the ledge. As long as Chuck is truly dead to Jimmy, Jimmy will win this case. except How would Chuck have known involving Ernie would work if he didn't know that Ernie had lied to him about calling Jimmy before they went into the copy shop?
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Apr 24, 2017 17:07
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Whether Ernie lied about calling Jimmy to cover for him, or really did call Jimmy out of concern regarding Chuck's behavior, it works either way for Chuck to get to Jimmy.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:13
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hailthefish posted:Whether Ernie lied about calling Jimmy to cover for him, or really did call Jimmy out of concern regarding Chuck's behavior, it works either way.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:16
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TBeats posted:I bet you're all wrong and chuck drops the charges. Not in his nature. Chuck doesn't sweep things under the rug. My guess is that Jimmy will use the "concern for my brother" defense and Chuck will then give the prosecutor every bit of family dirt he has, p[perhaps even destroying Kim to hurt Jimmy. I see this being at best a Pyrrhic victory for Chuck, as even if he wins, his reputation will be in tatters and Hamlin might have no choice but to have Chuck retire. Chuck is not someone who I see walks away from this series intact.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:33
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wins.
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PassTheRemote posted:Chuck is not someone who I see walks away from this series intact.
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Apr 24, 2017 17:37
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:When I say "defense" I'm talking about the things that Jimmy can legally do (not that I believe his options are that limited) to defend himself in front of a jury of his peers in a court of law. His defense will be that the break and enter, the destruction of property, and the threat to burn the house down, are all made not in a premeditated attempt to commit or cover up a crime, but as an impassioned response to being wronged by a family member. They are crimes, but let's talk proportionality. Let's talk justice. Chuck and the prosecution will argue that Jimmy's actions are those of a guilty man wanting to cover up his actions. Chuck's earnest belief was that his brother would attempt to steal the tape in the dead of night, and the prosecution will try to pretend that what Jimmy did is functionally no different from if he had. But it fundamentally is. The way I see it, the main thing is that he's still on the hook for B&E no matter why he did it. If he's distraught, I don't see that that gives him anything more than the basis for a plea for leniency. I do think his behavior at Chuck's house is indeed that of a guilty man who wants to cover up his crime--there's no way to avoid the appearance that that's what was going on. But if Jimmy ends up having to address that point, I think we all know he has the imagination and theatrical skills and chutzpah to come up with a story and sell it. I guess what I'm saying, overall, is that this isn't going to play out in a straightforward way where viewers can simply evaluate the situation as we see it now and predict something. I expect that he's going to end up pulling some kind of razzle-dazzle bullshit to squirm his way out of this. The guy who said squat cobbler will save the day is probably right, only this time it'll be more ambitious and more audacious. As far as Ernie goes, I think he probably trusts Kim more than anyone else, so it's reasonable that he'd go to her after what must have been a fairly bewildering experience with Chuck. As to whether that would have been a factor in Chuck's thinking, that's a different question.
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Apr 24, 2017 18:17
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Secret Agent X23 posted:The way I see it, the main thing is that he's still on the hook for B&E no matter why he did it. If he's distraught, I don't see that that gives him anything more than the basis for a plea for leniency. I do think his behavior at Chuck's house is indeed that of a guilty man who wants to cover up his crime--there's no way to avoid the appearance that that's what was going on. But if Jimmy ends up having to address that point, I think we all know he has the imagination and theatrical skills and chutzpah to come up with a story and sell it.
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Apr 24, 2017 18:28
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:The basis for a plea for leniency is all he needs. There's no legal way for Jimmy McGill to come out of this clean. I'm arguing that there's a way for Jimmy to go at this, specifically because of how he confronted Chuck rather than try to steal the tape like Chuck had predicted, that will ultimately lead to this ending with Chuck's downfall and the end of the McGill name, rather than a situation where Jimmy is made to change his name by HHM like we've been predicting would happen since the first freakin' episode. Okay, then, I'm fine with that--but with the provision that even if there's no legal way for Jimmy to come out of it clean, that doesn't mean he's going to feel limited to using legal tactics.
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Apr 24, 2017 18:32
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Secret Agent X23 posted:Okay, then, I'm fine with that--but with the provision that even if there's no legal way for Jimmy to come out of it clean, that doesn't mean he's going to feel limited to using legal tactics.
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Apr 24, 2017 18:48
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The courtroom scenes are going to be the loving poo poo and I can't wait
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Apr 24, 2017 18:58
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I mean he's still gonna be lying through his teeth under oath and that kid at the copy shop is probably gonna be called in to testify so that'll have to be dealt with, and then there's the matter of Ernie who, again, lied to Chuck about calling Jimmy before they went into the copy shop and all three of them know it. There's some things that are gonna have to be dealt with outside of a courtroom. But I would love it so much if that was kept to a minimum, because as much as Jimmy loves to take shortcuts in many, many avenues of his life, there is nothing he relishes more than the slow burn of convincing people, and if this trial is gonna be the birth of Saul Goodman, which I'd be shocked if it wasn't, I want Jimmy to enjoy it as much as possible, because that's how I think we get to the man we see in Breaking Bad. Sounds reasonable.
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Apr 24, 2017 19:01
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Colonel Whitey posted:The courtroom scenes are going to be the loving poo poo and I can't wait yes
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Apr 24, 2017 22:05
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Colonel Whitey posted:The courtroom scenes are going to be the loving poo poo and I can't wait Chuck, coming to the realization that he's about to lose the case, starts having some sort of outburst in court. Officers are forced to tase him to bring him under control, sending him into a psycho-coma like before and requiring hospitalization. On the way to the hospital, his ambulance goes through a storm and is struck by lightning.
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Apr 24, 2017 22:12
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Jimmy should just commit Chuck, that would fix a lot.
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Apr 24, 2017 23:02
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You are all assuming he is going to call the police or whatever
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Apr 25, 2017 00:26
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drunken officeparty posted:You are all assuming he is going to call the police or whatever It certainly looks like Chuck's building up a criminal case, yes
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Apr 25, 2017 00:32
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RJWaters2 posted:The tape is not the crime anymore. He's off to the hoosgow for breaking and entering and destruction of property. Platystemon posted:Jimmy broke down the door because he feared Chuck was having a mental health crisis. lifts cats over head posted:Somehow, <clap clap> someway, <clap clap> squat cobbler will save the day.
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Apr 25, 2017 00:34
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drunken officeparty posted:You are all assuming he is going to call the police or whatever Maybe not, but he's at least going to use the possibility as leverage. Or try to, anyway. Either way, Jimmy's going to have to evaluate his position in terms of facing criminal charges. Secret Agent X23 fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Apr 25, 2017 |
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Apr 25, 2017 00:34
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LividLiquid posted:And then this, yeah. The tape don't mean poo poo anymore. Also come on, of course Chuck's gonna call the police, why wouldn't the hell wouldn't he?
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Apr 25, 2017 00:41
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I think the only way Chuck can get Jimmy is if he can get Kim to admit it was fraud.
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Apr 25, 2017 00:48
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The week 3 trailers heavily imply the police are called and the DA is involved. Why would jimmy grab the book of matches with the bail bondsman's number or why would chuck be discussing charges with someone?
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Apr 25, 2017 00:51
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:That's not how this works at all. Chuck's entire plan was to get Jimmy to prove that the tape was real by trying to steal it. Chuck told Howard "my brother broke the law" not "my brother is about to break the law."
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Apr 25, 2017 00:51
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Cojawfee posted:I think the only way Chuck can get Jimmy is if he can get Kim to admit it was fraud. Kim's his lawyer now, she doesn't have to say poo poo.
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Apr 25, 2017 00:52
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Can't wait for tonight's episode, rewatching the first two already.
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Apr 25, 2017 01:47
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