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It's so annoying to me that Barry got absolutely chumped by Top and Mirror Master not once but twice in the same episode. The first time, yeah, he was somewhat taken by surprise. The second time though, he goes there specifically to take them on. It's just really lazy writing having him seem completely incompetent to present a challenge. Also the "reveal" (or lack thereof) at the end was so stupid. The rest of the episode was pretty good, the whole aspect of getting the band back together was nice, although it felt a bit cheap since it was resolved by just abducting everyone. Wally's situation was pretty sad though.  Also if Barry can just travel back in time when he wants, why did he need Wally to help him travel forward in time in the first place? e: Also they probably won't bring back Ronnie, Savitar is probably Julian, keeping with the theme of "We have to kill of Caitlin's love interest every season". irlZaphod fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Apr 27, 2017 |
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Apr 27, 2017 11:37
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He traveled to 2024. He told everyone he met he was from 2017. "Guys, I just came back from 8 years in the future!" No, Barry. Just... Just no.
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Apr 27, 2017 11:51
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Arthur Bowlsworth posted:What? He was turned into the black flash on-screen... I don't remember that but I'll take your word for it. I still stand by my position that there's a million established Flash/Speedforce ways to get around it so its moot. But I genuinely might have just forgotten that.
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Apr 27, 2017 12:05
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I know teamcharlie said don't assume the writers are geniuses, but I still don't think they'd make it Zoom. I think they have enough self-awareness to want to distance themselves from last season, and in fact have already said things to this effect at panels etc. That was my only point really, not any of the ways Zoom's fate could be handwaved away. Inkspot posted:He traveled to 2024. Yeah I'm glad I'm not the only one that was bothered by this. Barry said "8 years" specifically at least a few times, and I kept trying to make sense of it to no avail. Am I missing something, or did they really just gently caress that up?
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Apr 27, 2017 12:36
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STAC Goat posted:I'm not sure I buy that the Black Flash is Zoom/Hunter just because they both wear similar/the same costumes. I mean, its possible, but it could just as easily be a sloppy comic adaption with no intended connection beyond the overall Flash one. Barry says "Hunter Zolomon!?" when Black Flash appears in the episode where the speedforce is tired of Barry's poo poo.
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Apr 27, 2017 13:14
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Inkspot posted:He traveled to 2024. OMG! That was bothering me so much too.
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Apr 27, 2017 13:42
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Making Savitar be Ronnie would actually be a big deal, since the whole reason the singularity at the end of Season 1 occurred was because Barry went back in time to save his mother...and then proceeded not to. Ronnie basically got sucked into the singularity for nothing. For all we know (and what might have actually happened) Ronnie was sent into the Speedforce via the singularity. What does Barry do at the end of Season 2? Goes back into the past to actually save his mom, and thus creates Flashpoint. Which possibly prompts the Speedforce to decide to gently caress with Barry for this huge mistake and gives Ronnie goesfast. And since Flashpoint seems to just make metahumans affected by it obtain "evilness" right out the gate, it just makes Ronnie more evil, on top of blaming Barry for trapping him in the Speedforce.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:22
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I'm guessing it's Ronnie based on the build of the guy climbing out of the armor. It looked like a beefy slab of Amell.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:24
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ApeHawk posted:Making Savitar be Ronnie would actually be a big deal, since the whole reason the singularity at the end of Season 1 occurred was because Barry went back in time to save his mother...and then proceeded not to. Ronnie basically got sucked into the singularity for nothing. For all we know (and what might have actually happened) Ronnie was sent into the Speedforce via the singularity. Yeah but he was the first speedster. Which means it's real Jay.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:35
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Chokes McGee posted:Yeah but he was the first speedster. Nah. Obviously it's Hermes.
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Apr 27, 2017 17:41
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Phylodox posted:Nah. Obviously it's Hermes. Hermes has been hermetically sealed in that armor.
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Apr 27, 2017 18:37
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hangedman1984 posted:I'm thinking Robbie. No one else would have made Caitlin/Killer Frost go from "gently caress you, you're not the boss of me!" to "Whatever you say" that quickly. Exactly what I thought. Kinda looked like him as well.
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Apr 27, 2017 18:42
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Savitar will be Barry, except he'll be nineties Barry played by John Wesley Shipp.
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Apr 27, 2017 19:06
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Savitar is Greg Berlanti.
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Apr 27, 2017 19:16
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Wonder if they ever thought to have Iris just stay home that night? You're welcome Barry I fixed your problem!
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Apr 27, 2017 19:16
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Invalid Validation posted:Wonder if they ever thought to have Iris just stay home that night? You're welcome Barry I fixed your problem! Or they could take her to Earth-whatever, borrow Supergirl's space ship, and have Iris orbiting the Earth in an alternate dimension that day.
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Apr 27, 2017 19:18
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These "Why don't they do this with Iris?" quips are funny, but let's give a little credit here and remember that we can assume Savitar has the same powerset as Barry (or greater), and therefore can appear anywhere in physical space, time, and dimensions. (The first one just being speed, the second being Barry has been able to do this on his own even if he didn't mean to, and the third is somewhat similar to the second where Barry crossed over to Supergirl's Earth. Plus Savitar had that weird connection with the Speedforce where they couldn't track him and he could appear or disappear at will, but I'm not sure what the current status of that is because "lol the flash writers" and speedforce.gif.) We can also safely assume that whoever Savitar is he/she is way more intelligent than Barry or Team Flash. 
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Apr 27, 2017 19:34
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I hope it's not Ronnie, his dumbass was the one who sacrificed himself immediately after getting married.
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Apr 27, 2017 19:43
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It's not the craziest thing a man has ever done to get away from his wife.
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Apr 27, 2017 19:50
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Longbaugh01 posted:I know teamcharlie said don't assume the writers are geniuses, but I still don't think they'd make it Zoom. I think they have enough self-awareness to want to distance themselves from last season, and in fact have already said things to this effect at panels etc. Did they film the episode in 2016?
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Apr 27, 2017 20:09
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Ronnie seems likely to me, Barry did wreck his life, and Frost's reaction would make sense. Killer Frost and evil Firestorm were an item on Earth 2 already. Still, I hope Savitar is the time remnant Barry created and sacrificed to stop Zoom. If that Barry remnant got absorbed into the speedforce and had to spend months dealing with the annoyingly passive aggressive speedforce spirit he always meets there, he'd probably be pretty pissed off at Barry Prime by now. That would also got with the show's persistent theme of absolutely everything bad being Barry's doing in some way.
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Apr 27, 2017 20:10
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Longbaugh01 posted:These "Why don't they do this with Iris?" quips are funny, but let's give a little credit here and remember that we can assume Savitar has the same powerset as Barry (or greater), and therefore can appear anywhere in physical space, time, and dimensions. (The first one just being speed, the second being Barry has been able to do this on his own even if he didn't mean to, and the third is somewhat similar to the second where Barry crossed over to Supergirl's Earth. Plus Savitar had that weird connection with the Speedforce where they couldn't track him and he could appear or disappear at will, but I'm not sure what the current status of that is because "lol the flash writers" and speedforce.gif.) I think the Savitar disappearing trick was just when he was in the Speed Force and could only slip out through Alchemy. He's free of that now. But yeah, he's been firmly established as a more powerful and competent Barry/Thawne/Zoom so short of having Supergirl load her into a spaceship or something he'd probably just be able to get around it. And even if you could save her on that one day in May it doesn't stop Savitar from killing her in June or whenever. It's not like he turns back into s pumpkin.
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Apr 27, 2017 20:16
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Bruceski posted:Did they film the episode in 2016? Maybe? But why would that matter script-continuity-wise if in the dialog they repeat that he went from 2017 to 2024 yet keep saying that's 8 years? Robot Hobo posted:Killer Frost and evil Firestorm were an item on Earth 2 already. This is a good point.
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Apr 27, 2017 20:21
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Didn't Savitar get released by Wally cause future Barry imprisoned him? Where the hell did he come from?
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Apr 27, 2017 20:32
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Like, no one knowing where the hell Savitar came from in the first place is the entire mystery behind him and his identity. No one knows what his deal is. But yeah, Wally freed him by throwing in the last bit of the Philosopher's Stone and taking his place.
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Apr 27, 2017 20:38
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Robot Hobo posted:Ronnie seems likely to me, Barry did wreck his life, and Frost's reaction would make sense. Killer Frost and evil Firestorm were an item on Earth 2 already. My problem with the time remnant idea is that Future Barry would have warned him, "Oh btw, don't create any Remnants to stop Savitar because one becomes him." Instead he just says he don't know who Savitar is.
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Apr 27, 2017 20:46
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I actually do think there's a good chance it's literally Hermes. Think about it: Arrow introduced superheroes at the street level. Flash introduced the concept of metas and time travel. Supergirl introduced aliens and cosmic stuff. Arrow brought in magic. The only logical next step is gods.
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Apr 27, 2017 20:48
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STAC Goat posted:Like, no one knowing where the hell Savitar came from in the first place is the entire mystery behind him and his identity. No one knows what his deal is. Damnit you just reminded me of a few things. So, yeah, despite the body in the Savitar suit not looking like Jay Garrick (they've done misdirects like that before), it could kinda make sense that it's him because he was trapped in the Speedforce and maybe went crazy because of it and time dilation while inside or whatever. Plus it'd fit that "original speedster" thing since Jay obviously was The Flash on Earth-whatever before Barry got his powers, or so I assume. Yes I know this has probably been laid out before. Also, maybe it's a paradox and it also doesn't explain the suit except for the suit just being a identity-hiding-plot-contrivance. This would be the chronology: 1. Jay takes Wally's place. 2. Jay goes insane and becomes Savitar inside the Speedforce. 3. The Speedforce being outside of time (I assume) Jay/Savitar starts loving around with Alchemy/acolytes/trying to get Philosopher's Stone/etc. etc. (Remember the manifesting in the physical world even if he's stuck inside the Speedforce and it probably being totally unattached to our sense of time) 4. Wally frees Jay/Savitar and takes his place. 5. We're back to 1 and Jay takes Wally's place. 6. Jay/Savitar kills Iris. (And this is where this theory goes off the rails because...) 7. Barry (what was it? 5 years later?) uses a "Speedforce trap" to imprison Jay/Savitar in the Speedforce. The thing is, we heard nothing regarding Jay from anyone in 2024. So he either was still trapped, was released when Jay/Savitar was imprisoned using the Speedforce trap, or had been freed somehow by someone in the intervening 7 years. -If he was released when Savitar was imprisoned by Barry using the trap in 2022(?) or freed by someone, somehow in the intervening 7 years then this really makes absolutely no sense. -If he was still trapped, then this could still make sense in a writer-y way because the merging of Jay upon Jay upon Jay (It's Jays all the way down) inside the Speedforce could've been part of the cause or a exacerbation of what drove Jay to become Savitar. Yeah I realize I  'd out on this, but I had the time and I enjoyed thinking it through. Yeah, I also realize what the answer ends up being will probably not be nothing like this at all. Still fun.Now I said STAC reminded me of a few things. Here are the others: -Cisco vibed Barry into the Speedforce. In another one of those "Why don't they just do this?" instances: Why not just get Cisco to vibe Savitar back into the SF and trap him there while vibeing Jay out. Possible answer: His hands get frozen off before he has the opportunity. -If Savitar is Ronnie, then the "original speedster" line makes no sense...unless where ever Ronnie went via the singularity and got these powers from was a time before Barry got his (or Jay). -I don't see how the Eddie thing would work at all. Especially with the "original speedster" line. I mean yeah it could be handwaved/bullshitted away, but it seems the least likely out of Barry, Jay, and Ronnie. tl;dr I know, but I hope someone enjoyed this. I know I did.
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Apr 27, 2017 21:16
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Longbaugh01 posted:Damnit you just reminded me of a few things. There's a definite poetry to Jay being trapped and going mad and becoming the thing they were trapping in the first place. And would fit the speedster thing. But it seems like a major paradox, if the show cares at all about that. Like, if Jay has to get trapped to become Savitar and Savitar has to exist to create the trap for Jay to get stuck in then how did Savitar ever happen in the first place? quote:Now I said STAC reminded me of a few things. Here are the others: - Presumably Cisco could open a portal to the Speed Force to throw Savitar in but they'd still have to get Savitar under control without him just killing Cisco. - Ronnie as Savitar makes no real sense to me for that very "speedster" reason. But like I said, I hate this kind of speculation because I think it only builds impossible expectations or spoils surprises. - Same with Eddie, I guess, but that one never seemed to have any real basis beyond "he's a guy from Barry's past who could be mad."
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Apr 27, 2017 21:28
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We've never heard anything more about why a Harrison Wells is on that rooftop with a BFG while Iris gets slaughtered, and which version of Harrison Wells it could be, have we? I find that curious since it was a very deliberate focus of the flashforward scenes. Anyway, might as well throw a version of Harrison Wells into the mix as a possible suspect for Savitar. In fact, Barry has killed or hosed over so many people that the list of Savitar suspects really probably numbers in the hundreds at least. And that's just on one Earth I'm talking about! Basically as STAC said: STAC Goat posted:"he's a guy from Barry's past who could be mad." STAC Goat posted:But it seems like a major paradox, if the show cares at all about that. Like, if Jay has to get trapped to become Savitar and Savitar has to exist to create the trap for Jay to get stuck in then how did Savitar ever happen in the first place? Yeah, exactly. Though I don't think it'd be the first time this show has dealt in paradoxes.
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Apr 27, 2017 21:38
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So... where did the future Barry come from?
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Apr 27, 2017 21:42
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R-Type posted:So... where did the future Barry come from? The past. We're all traveling into the future. 
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Apr 27, 2017 22:08
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Probably the most unrealistic thing about the episode was Julian still being around 7 years later. You know Tom Felton isn't hanging around that long.
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Apr 27, 2017 22:51
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Savitar is Adrian Chase, because why the gently caress not.
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Apr 27, 2017 23:05
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Savitar is the original speedster, Dominic Toretto.
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Apr 27, 2017 23:16
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Ojjeorago posted:Savitar is the original speedster, Dominic Toretto. Savitar is also furious at Barry for existing, so this checks out
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Apr 27, 2017 23:29
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LongDarkNight posted:I'm guessing it's Ronnie based on the build of the guy climbing out of the armor. It looked like a beefy slab of Amell. Turns out it was a different Amell and Oliver Queen is actually Savitar! What a twist!! Longbaugh01 posted:We can also safely assume that whoever Savitar is he/she is way more intelligent than Barry or Team Flash. Not like that's a huge bar to jump over.
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Apr 27, 2017 23:45
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Burning_Monk posted:My problem with the time remnant idea is that Future Barry would have warned him, "Oh btw, don't create any Remnants to stop Savitar because one becomes him." Instead he just says he don't know who Savitar is. ...but it's probably gonna be Robbie.
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Apr 27, 2017 23:56
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Robot Hobo posted:Well, if it was the time remnant Barry made to defeat Zoom, that was before 2017, so it would be too late to warm him about that one now. Either way, 2024 Barry still might not know that's who Savitar was... Or might just be lying to keep a pointless and harmful secret because that's just how Team Flash always operates. That time remnant that he used to defeat Zoom blew up with the multiverse doomsday device. That was kind of the point and mention in that episode, if you make a remnant it has to die or the wraiths come for you.
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Apr 28, 2017 00:00
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hangedman1984 posted:Not like that's a huge bar to jump over. 
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Apr 28, 2017 00:05
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