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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
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MooselanderII posted:Maybe Obama should just donate the money to a cause supportive of the ACA then? do you want him to be in the poorhouse? 
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Apr 28, 2017 16:17
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JeffersonClay posted:They're trying to get people to come to their healthcare conference and Obama's a huge draw whether he guillotined a bunch of bankers or not. I understand the intention on the part of Cantor Fitzgerald, and like I mentioned in my post I honestly don't think this is a "we're doing this as payment for you being nice to us" situation. But the problem is that it is literally impossible to distinguish "legitimate" transactions of this nature from a reward* for acting in a beneficial way while in office (unless there's literally a written contract or recorded audio saying "We will give you a lucrative job/speaking gigs if you do good things for us" which is never going to happen). So the main issue is that, if you don't ban this sort of behavior, you effectively create an avenue for untraceable corruption. If the intent really is for Obama to help bring garner interest in healthcare investment, he can always volunteer to do it for free. It's not like presidents don't already receive a large six-figure pension (in addition to other sources of money like book deals). *Or, as also mentioned in my earlier post, the absence of "not getting a reward." While it's not impossible that a president could still get hired like this, it's far less likely if they took actions that effectively burned bridges between them and Wall Street firms. vvv Yeah, that also works, though it would ideally have to be part of the agreement to begin with, rather than the voluntary action of the president/politician in question. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Apr 28, 2017 |
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Apr 28, 2017 16:57
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Or he could donate it.
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Apr 28, 2017 17:02
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Trying to imagine being such a blind partisan that I spent X number of minutes of my finite existence explaining to people why Graft Is Good, Actually like I write for Vox magazine.
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Apr 28, 2017 17:41
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Mister Fister posted:Yes i'm sure on Alternative Earth April 28, 2025 Wall Street gives ex-POTUS Bernie Sanders 400k to speak at one of their conferences after he sends half their CEO's to jail Wall Street is not a monolith. Small and medium sized firms like Cantor would benefit substantially if the government shut down their largest competitors or tarred their reputations with fraud convictions. Similarly it doesn't make sense that Cantor would engage in a quid pro quo with a politician for treatment of the industry generally because so much of the benefit would accrue to their larger competitors. Ytlaya posted:So the main issue is that, if you don't ban this sort of behavior, you effectively create an avenue for untraceable corruption. If the intent really is for Obama to help bring garner interest in healthcare investment, he can always volunteer to do it for free. It's not like presidents don't already receive a large six-figure pension (in addition to other sources of money like book deals). It seems like any exchange of services for money creates the possibility of untraceable corruption. what's the difference between a paid speech and a book contract, or a consulting gig? MooselanderII posted:Or he could donate it. Or he could use it to further his stated goal of fighting voter suppression. Condiv posted:btw, you never answered my question. how is obamacare supposed to keep working if you continually gotta find investors to grease the wheels? what happens to obamacare if we hit an economic downturn and investment dries up? The Obamacare marketplaces need more providers and options. Investment allows companies to offer more options. More investment is only necessary when more providers and options are needed.
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Apr 28, 2017 18:50
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JeffersonClay posted:
Or he could donate it directly and immediately to a cause that helps clean up the optics on this whole thing? Why are you dragging your heels on this? You've acknowledged it looks bad, Obama donating the cash would help clear this whole thing up. I would hope Obama would use it for the best possible purpose, but unfortunately, he might not!
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Apr 28, 2017 18:58
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JeffersonClay posted:The Obamacare marketplaces need more providers and options. Investment allows companies to offer more options. More investment is only necessary when more providers and options are needed. i thought the marketplace was supposed to attract providers and options on its own? why is obama having to beg private companies to get into marketplaces at a time when the stock market and the economy is supposedly humming along and has been for a while?are the marketplaces going to lose all their options and providers in the event of another recession? also, why does obama need to be paid $400k for any of this? obama's already got a massive pension, he could retire now if he wanted to. so he doesn't need the money. and if he cares so much about ppaca that he wants to preserve it and help the marketplaces along, why does a wall street financial services firm need to give him $400k to get him to do it? Condiv fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Apr 28, 2017 |
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Apr 28, 2017 18:59
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JeffersonClay posted:It seems like any exchange of services for money creates the possibility of untraceable corruption. what's the difference between a paid speech and a book contract, or a consulting gig? Consulting gigs for politicians are actually very often bullshit as well, but they're more a steady trickle of illicit income as opposed to a one-time massive grant like this speech was. So they don't make the headlines as much. So that's the difference. What else you got?
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Apr 28, 2017 19:03
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obama will never need for anything again in his life, the US has seen to that. why does he want $400k from wall street?
Condiv fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Apr 28, 2017 |
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Apr 28, 2017 19:06
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lol like you can ever have enough money (this is what most liberals actually believe)
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Apr 28, 2017 19:05
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Maybe that's what Obama was saving that political capital for? Actual capital?
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Apr 28, 2017 19:07
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Kilroy posted:You're a craven idiot, JeffersonClay.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:14
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MooselanderII posted:Or he could donate it directly and immediately to a cause that helps clean up the optics on this whole thing? Why are you dragging your heels on this? You've acknowledged it looks bad, Obama donating the cash would help clear this whole thing up. He hasn't been paid yet, but he could announce his intentions I guess. I agree the optics are bad. I don't think we need to make them worse by assuming with no evidence that he's taking kickbacks from Wall Street for favors during his term. Condiv posted:i thought the marketplace was supposed to attract providers and options on its own? why is obama having to beg private companies to get into marketplaces at a time when the stock market and the economy is supposedly humming along and has been for a while?are the marketplaces going to lose all their options and providers in the event of another recession? There's an incredible amount of uncertainty around government healthcare policy right now which impacts the financial calculus of healthcare firms. That's why Obama is a new effective draw for this healthcare conference--he might have insight into what might happen next. quote:also, why does obama need to be paid $400k for any of this? Anybody who wants to have obama speak is going to need to pay that much, and he certainly needs the money if he intends to spend his time post-presidency affecting political change, which is his stated intention. Kilroy posted:Book contracts are generally tied to your ability to sell books. If a book publisher advances a politician an amount of money that they can't realistically hope to recoup on sales, then I'll raise my eyebrows. It's hard to imagine that happening since book publishers don't face any serious regulatory threat to their business from the government, and they don't need any protection from an angry populace after they cratered the economy, either. Any corporation could just buy a bunch of the books. They could offer advances on books that they never expect to recoup. Consulting gigs can easily pay out much more than 400k. You've articulated no significant difference here.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:16
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Kilroy posted:Maybe that's what Obama was saving that political capital for? Actual capital? The Obama foundation actually it would be rly rly funny if michelle runs in 2024 or something and gets killed over the obama foundation
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Apr 28, 2017 19:20
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JeffersonClay posted:Anybody who wants to have obama speak is going to need to pay that much, and he certainly needs the money if he intends to spend his time post-presidency affecting political change, which is his stated intention. This is legitimately the funniest thing I've seen on these forums in a long time.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:24
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JeffersonClay posted:Anybody who wants to have obama speak is going to need to pay that much, and he certainly needs the money if he intends to spend his time post-presidency affecting political change, which is his stated intention. Expand on this thought, please.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:23
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JeffersonClay posted:There's an incredible amount of uncertainty around government healthcare policy right now which impacts the financial calculus of healthcare firms. That's why Obama is a new effective draw for this healthcare conference--he might have insight into what might happen next.  ex-dem president has insight into trump's insanity, or republican healthcare plans? don't think so. how's obama supposed to quell any uncertainty when he has no contact in that chaotic clusterfuck of a government we call the trump administration? quote:Anybody who wants to have obama speak is going to need to pay that much, and he certainly needs the money if he intends to spend his time post-presidency affecting political change, which is his stated intention. i just don't know how to respond to this. just wow. why does he want wall street money that will tar his presidency and himself to affect political change? he definitely doesn't need it, as he doesn't need to affect political change Condiv fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Apr 28, 2017 |
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Apr 28, 2017 19:25
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JeffersonClay posted:He hasn't been paid yet, but he could announce his intentions I guess. I agree the optics are bad. I don't think we need to make them worse by assuming with no evidence that he's taking kickbacks from Wall Street for favors during his term. Why are you being such a deferential wuss and pussyfooting about this? Yeah, he should announce his intentions to donate it because the optics look bad if he keeps it! This comes at a time when most voters see the Democratic party as more out of touch than the GOP, it is a no brainier and it is amazing that you need to be dragged kicking and screaming to see that this exacerbates a very real problem.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:34
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JeffersonClay posted:Any corporation could just buy a bunch of the books. They could offer advances on books that they never expect to recoup. Consulting gigs can easily pay out much more than 400k. You've articulated no significant difference here. WampaLord posted:Expand on this thought, please.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:35
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i do wonder jc, if you think obama should ever meet with anyone who doesn't have 400k. kids maybe? no? what about kids with cancer? no deal there either?
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Apr 28, 2017 19:37
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quote:Anybody who wants to have obama speak is going to need to pay that much, and he certainly needs the money if he intends to spend his time post-presidency affecting political change, which is his stated intention. Yeah, we should really be sending thank you notes to the banks.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:37
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Hey, have you guys complaining about this speech also considered every other hypothetical instance of corruption permitted by the laws of physics?
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Apr 28, 2017 19:37
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Kilroy posted:Hey, have you guys complaining about this speech also considered every other hypothetical instance of corruption permitted by the laws of physics? Maybe Obama is going to buy homeless people dinner with the 400k. I mean, it is physically possible, and thus, it is a good thing he received the money! This is seriously that Ron Paul quote all over again.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:40
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MooselanderII posted:Why are you being such a deferential wuss and pussyfooting about this? Yeah, he should announce his intentions to donate it because the optics look bad if he keeps it! This comes at a time when most voters see the Democratic party as more out of touch than the GOP, it is a no brainier and it is amazing that you need to be dragged kicking and screaming to see that this exacerbates a very real problem. You're talking to a guy whose master plan for the Democrats is to spend the next three and a half years screaming about how Trump is bad. Also the idea that this isn't so bad because Cantor isn't the biggest player on Wall Street is super dumb because this is sure as poo poo not going to be the last Wall Street gig that Obama signs up for.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:42
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Kilroy posted:The difference is that those things haven't actually happened, you unbelievable moron. If Obama gets a huge advance from some book publisher and it turns out it was paid for by some other company, then I'm pretty sure anyone complaining about this speech will call that out for the corruption that would be, as well. And I already said most consulting gigs are bullshit. http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/sarah-palin-pac-buy-book/story?id=9718024
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Apr 28, 2017 19:42
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if 400k could bring back even a single one of the poor brown children obama murdered with giant shrieking metal death birds, i would give a gently caress about this
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Apr 28, 2017 19:44
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Cerebral Bore posted:You're talking to a guy whose master plan for the Democrats is to spend the next three and a half years screaming about how Trump is bad. Oh I know, but his willingness to basically be the Sean Hannity of the Democratic party never ceases to amaze me.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:46
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Calibanibal posted:if 400k could bring back even a single one of the poor brown children obama murdered with giant shrieking metal death birds, i would give a gently caress about this do they actually make them shriek as they kill? maybe that's why all those drone operators are getting hyper-ptsd
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Apr 28, 2017 19:47
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WampaLord posted:Expand on this thought, please. Obama says he intends to spend his post presidency fighting voter suppression. Money will help him do that. He can make a lot of money by being paid to give speeches. The more he can charge, the better. It looks like his price will be 400K. FuriousxGeorge posted:Yeah, we should really be sending thank you notes to the banks. Doing this speech for free would be a giant thank you to a bank because they are definitely going to profit from his appearance. Condiv posted:i do wonder jc, if you think obama should ever meet with anyone who doesn't have 400k. kids maybe? no? what about kids with cancer? no deal there either? Obviously Obama is still going to give speeches and meet with people for free. if a big corporation wants him to speak, he's going to ask for 400K. If the NAACP wants him to speak, he won't. How is this too complicated for y'all to grasp?
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Apr 28, 2017 19:47
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It's darkly amusing, this debate as to whether cashing in at effective hourly rates even the richest people on the planet would salivate over is amoral, troublesome, or indicative of some of the very problems unraveling this country at the seams is even a problem. Hell, the people tut-tutting Obama for it are already being incredibly generous to you folks who think there's either nothing wrong, or that the only real issue is questionable optics. It's a really loving gracious offer to say jeez, take the 200k pension, the book deal, but maybe stop just before you're taking the 400k payouts from other industries you failed to rein in, and regulate, and especially prosecute in any meaningful way Really, Obama, take your eye-popping, record-breaking 60 million dollar payout from Penguin-Random house, a newly minted publishing titan whose merger your administration permitted to grant it oh, say 25% of the worlds book publishing market (likely a conservative estimate). At least you did us the courtesy of not failing to regulate Amazon while taking an even more princely sum from them.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:50
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JeffersonClay posted:Obviously Obama is still going to give speeches and meet with people for free. if a big corporation wants him to speak, he's going to ask for 400K. If the NAACP wants him to speak, he won't. How is this too complicated for y'all to grasp? i thought you said this was a needed conference to save obamacare. why does he want a big paycheck for that, much less from a financial services firm? would he not save obamacare if he wasn't paid by wallstreet? Condiv fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Apr 28, 2017 |
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Apr 28, 2017 19:52
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I mean, even if he wasn't paid for this speech the banks could just bombard his fingernails with alpha radiation until enough of the keratin in them transmutes into gold. If you haven't got a problem with that then I don't see why you're up in arms about the $400K 
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Apr 28, 2017 19:55
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JeffersonClay posted:Obama says he intends to spend his post presidency fighting voter suppression. Money will help him do that. He can make a lot of money by being paid to give speeches. The more he can charge, the better. It looks like his price will be 400K. I assumed he was planning on raising money to do this the normal way, by asking for donations to a political organization, not funding it himself personally.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:55
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MooselanderII posted:Why are you being such a deferential wuss and pussyfooting about this? Yeah, he should announce his intentions to donate it because the optics look bad if he keeps it! This comes at a time when most voters see the Democratic party as more out of touch than the GOP, it is a no brainier and it is amazing that you need to be dragged kicking and screaming to see that this exacerbates a very real problem. What if he announces his intention to use it to fight voter suppression or to fund his own charity or foundation? What's the difference? Cerebral Bore posted:the idea that this isn't so bad because Cantor isn't the biggest player on Wall Street is super dumb because this is sure as poo poo not going to be the last Wall Street gig that Obama signs up for. These arguments may not make any sense right now, but mark my words, they will some day!
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Apr 28, 2017 19:56
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WampaLord posted:I assumed he was planning on raising money to do this the normal way, by asking for donations to a political organization, not funding it himself personally. obama's just normalizing donors donating directly to his wallet.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:56
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WampaLord posted:I assumed he was planning on raising money to do this the normal way, by asking for donations to a political organization, not funding it himself personally. Yeah, if the fight against voter suppression actually needs a random 400 grand from Obama personally we might as well throw in the towel now because come the gently caress on.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:58
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JeffersonClay posted:These arguments may not make any sense right now, but mark my words, they will some day! you sure? i don't think your arguments will ever make much sense
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Apr 28, 2017 19:58
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he should just frame it as wall street funding the ropes that will be used to hang them
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Apr 28, 2017 19:59
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JeffersonClay posted:I don't think we need to make them worse by assuming with no evidence that he's taking kickbacks from Wall Street for favors during his term. quote:There's an incredible amount of uncertainty around government healthcare policy right now which impacts the financial calculus of healthcare firms. That's why Obama is a new effective draw for this healthcare conference--he might have insight into what might happen next. You are complaining about people believing things without evidence, but you have no evidence about the motivations of this fee and speech. You are just assuming.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:59
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JeffersonClay posted:These arguments may not make any sense right now, but mark my words, they will some day! Stop posting. Go outside. Find a cliff. Jump off that cliff.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:59
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