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Phlegmish posted:I too am baffled and confused that other people could have a different ideology and worldview than my own it's normal to be baffled at people continually voting for being hosed over, with a smile anyway i'm glad le pen seems to be just as dumb and bad at politics as macron is
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Apr 28, 2017 17:02
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fishmech posted:Why are you surprised that people want what's been voted for in multiple countries for decades really. "everyone's a secret leftist" stuff is just wishful thinking. You can't say they want it if your argument for why they don't not want it is that they don't care for it. Not caring for something isn't an automatic A-OK for it, it's a neutral attitude that doesn't pass judgement on it. Since the '80s and the fall of the Soviet Union it's been incredibly easy for economic liberalism to just go by unchallenged, not because people are all for it, but because the debate on it was "settled", end of history and all that.
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Apr 28, 2017 17:08
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Cat Mattress posted:What actually happens when the left veers to neoliberal policies of austerity for the poor, boundless generosity for the wealthy is that the people turn to the extremes. This mechanism is known since the 1920s, and the establishment is consciously exploiting it, which you can see in how they attack viciously people deemed to be on the extreme left but they legitimize people on the extreme-right. The endgoal of austerian neoliberalism is a system of oligarchic neofascism, similar to what you see in China or Russia. Really, it's a return to the ancien regime: the nobility, now called the oligarchs, have all the rights and all the privileges; the commoners can be exploited for fun and profit. Lol. There's no liberal conspiracy to return to the ancien régime you dunce. They just think market deregulations are the best way to organize society and they're mistaken about it. I can't believe you're claiming the ideology which beheaded kings and aristocracy in the name of making mad dosh wants to return to feudalism. The veer to the hard right is a side-effect of their policy, not their goal.
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Apr 28, 2017 17:16
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Deltasquid posted:Lol. There's no liberal conspiracy to return to the ancien régime you dunce. They just think market deregulations are the best way to organize society and they're mistaken about it. The fact that they are ideologically motivated doesn't exclude the fact of an existing de facto conspiracy. Have you ever heard of the Mont Pelerin society? This think tank from where cabinet members from Tatcherism and Reaganism came from were not against undermining democracy or supporting multinational corporations. The creation of a tightly secured oligarchy was part of their vision of an undisturbed market efficiency. Fados fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Apr 28, 2017 |
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Apr 28, 2017 17:22
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YF-23 posted:You can't say they want it if your argument for why they don't not want it is that they don't care for it. Not caring for something isn't an automatic A-OK for it, it's a neutral attitude that doesn't pass judgement on it. Since the '80s and the fall of the Soviet Union it's been incredibly easy for economic liberalism to just go by unchallenged, not because people are all for it, but because the debate on it was "settled", end of history and all that. The easiest opinion to take on something they don't actually know or care about is "well the truth must be in the middle". The whole purpose of centrist politics is to say "look at us, we're in the middle". These two naturally attract each other. That's why you get all these people who are all like "oh yeah I really like %whatever centrist party/politician%". The very point is that their voting base is hardly all for anything at all beyond "things shouldn't change much", just that they'll go to where the center appears to be if you make them take a choice.
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Apr 28, 2017 17:22
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Deltasquid posted:Lol. There's no liberal conspiracy to return to the ancien régime you dunce. They just think market deregulations are the best way to organize society and they're mistaken about it. Classical liberalism is far divorced from the liberalism envisioned by the late 18th century revolutionaries and its inevitable end-game if applied fully is a capitalistic system virtually indistinguishable from feudalism. It's an ideology which completely abhors non-voluntary transfers of wealth and in such a system wealth will inevitably keep transferring and concentrating upwards.
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Apr 28, 2017 17:24
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MiddleOne posted:Classical liberalism is far divorced from the liberalism envisioned by the late 18th century revolutionaries and its inevitable end-game if applied fully is a capitalistic system virtually indistinguishable from feudalism. It's an ideology which completely abhors non-voluntary transfers of wealth and in such a system wealth will inevitably keep transferring upwards. Yeah you could even say that capitalism's end goal is to reinstate feudalism in some form, to subsume and collapse upon itself, only it never gets to that because of the endless crisis it generates which forces it to adapt again and again.
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Apr 28, 2017 17:26
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Fados posted:Yeah you could even say that capitalism's end goal is to reinstate feudalism in some form, only it never gets to that because of the endless crisis it generates which forces it to adapt itself again and again. Counterpoint, Russia.
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Apr 28, 2017 17:29
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:He's the guy who would rather live in the GDR, instead of modern day America. In the GDR, there were no different worldviews. Only wrong worldviews and educational torture. I have known multiple people who were adults in the GDR and who said it was not perfect, but acceptable and livable. Maybe modern day America is livable for you, probably because you're either not poor, not black, not hispanic or not chronically ill or whatever other state of being that makes life in modern day America pretty awful.
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Apr 28, 2017 17:31
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MiddleOne posted:Counterpoint, Russia. Russia is more than halfway to feudalism already, so I don't really see your counterpoint here.
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Apr 28, 2017 17:41
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fishmech posted:The easiest opinion to take on something they don't actually know or care about is "well the truth must be in the middle". The whole purpose of centrist politics is to say "look at us, we're in the middle". These two naturally attract each other. That's why you get all these people who are all like "oh yeah I really like %whatever centrist party/politician%". Point is, you still cannot say that liberal economic policies were actively desired and sought after. Much as the '90s were, for the western world, a decade of abundance and plenty, they were also a decade of political hibernation in which elections had questionable impact on policy and ideology.
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Apr 28, 2017 17:48
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Shibawanko posted:I have known multiple people who were adults in the GDR and who said it was not perfect, but acceptable and livable. Maybe modern day America is livable for you, probably because you're either not poor, not black, not hispanic or not chronically ill or whatever other state of being that makes life in modern day America pretty awful. Are you American Did the poors in GDR have the internet? Checkmate self-haters feller fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Apr 28, 2017 |
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Apr 28, 2017 17:48
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:He's the guy who would rather live in the GDR, instead of modern day America. In the GDR, there were no different worldviews. Only wrong worldviews and educational torture. There's plenty of people in the former Sovjet Republics which would happily trade the freedoms and uncertainty of liberal capitalism for the hopeless 'keep your head down' stability that they used to enjoy. People tend to forget that most of us live in the stronger western nations which have been able to pick and choose what parts of neoliberalism we've participated in. That especially goes for UK and the northern economies. The new states of the 90's had no such luxury and basically were forced into accepting whatever the IMF, World Bank and World Trade Organization wanted them to do. If you've been paying attention to the Eurozone crisis you've seen the exact same thing happening to the debtor nations. Anyone living precariously in the US or UK in the last decade has also had the pleasure of enjoying what it's like when the state completely abdicates responsibility for food, shelter and safety. The Sovjet Republics were loving terrible but so is the crony capitalism that most of these nations have gotten instead. Cerebral Bore posted:Russia is more than halfway to feudalism already, so I don't really see your counterpoint here. Haha, but that was my point. He said that it never gets that far because capitalism collapses on itself. But Russia is telltale proof that there is no such guarantee. Free-market Capitalism can and will concentrate power if it's allowed to run rampant without state interference. Just to make this absolutely clear, I'm agreeing with you. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Apr 28, 2017 |
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Apr 28, 2017 17:51
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YF-23 posted:Point is, you still cannot say that liberal economic policies were actively desired and sought after. Much as the '90s were, for the western world, a decade of abundance and plenty, they were also a decade of political hibernation in which elections had questionable impact on policy and ideology. While I was never saying that, why do you believe liberal policies have been in existence for centuries if nobody "really" wants them? I think you're falling into the fallacy of "everyone's a secret opponent to liberalism" when everything else shows that most people don't pay attention and of those that do there are certainly plenty who think "liberalism" is the correct way to do things, just as others think any other political orientation is the correct way to do things. And uh yeah, the very existence of a "decade of abundance and plenty" is going to lead to people favorable to the policies that were in place then. Why would it make those who don't pay much attention oppose such policies, at any rate?
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Apr 28, 2017 17:51
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Toplowtech posted:Because i misread it as Macaroni and it makes me hungry. Also some of my fellow ritals may find it offensive. But it's nice and it sounds like my cronies. Also in wtf news: Valls apparently spotted under a tree kissing Raffarin. Wedding expected. Dogs and cats, people. Dogs and cats. Guess there is no point proposing MacMorons then
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Apr 28, 2017 17:58
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SA_Avenger posted:Guess there is no point proposing MacMorons then
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Apr 28, 2017 18:09
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fishmech posted:They basically think it's ok to have 0 political opinion the same way it's ok to have 0 opinion on the latest movie or TV show. Nothing more, nothing less. this but unironically
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Apr 28, 2017 18:30
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Just a question, but what do you suggest people should do who like the idea of the European Union and many of it's aspects? I like border free travel. I like harmonizing regulations, student exchange programs, coordinated foreign policy, a common market and a common currency. I would love a common economic policy and more wealth transfers. In general, nation states are sort of dumb in my opinion. Of course the EU's neoliberalism is poo poo. But am I supposed to vote for those who want to leave/dismantle the EU, so that we may perhaps get better left wing policies? That's a lot to ask for.
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Apr 28, 2017 23:11
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Torrannor posted:Just a question, but what do you suggest people should do who like the idea of the European Union and many of it's aspects? I like border free travel. I like harmonizing regulations, student exchange programs, coordinated foreign policy, a common market and a common currency. I would love a common economic policy and more wealth transfers. In general, nation states are sort of dumb in my opinion. Of course the EU's neoliberalism is poo poo. But am I supposed to vote for those who want to leave/dismantle the EU, so that we may perhaps get better left wing policies? That's a lot to ask for. well, melenchon didn't make it to the second round, and in general left-wing euroskeptics have been viciously attacked by more centrist liberals as fascist dupes and useful idiots, so nobody, sorry
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Apr 28, 2017 23:15
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Torrannor posted:Just a question, but what do you suggest people should do who like the idea of the European Union and many of it's aspects? I like border free travel. I like harmonizing regulations, student exchange programs, coordinated foreign policy, a common market and a common currency. I would love a common economic policy and more wealth transfers. In general, nation states are sort of dumb in my opinion. Of course the EU's neoliberalism is poo poo. But am I supposed to vote for those who want to leave/dismantle the EU, so that we may perhaps get better left wing policies? That's a lot to ask for. Centrism is steadily tearing the EU apart irregardless so you don't really have a choice here.
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Apr 28, 2017 23:38
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Torrannor posted:Just a question, but what do you suggest people should do who like the idea of the European Union and many of it's aspects? I like border free travel. I like harmonizing regulations, student exchange programs, coordinated foreign policy, a common market and a common currency. I would love a common economic policy and more wealth transfers. In general, nation states are sort of dumb in my opinion. Of course the EU's neoliberalism is poo poo. But am I supposed to vote for those who want to leave/dismantle the EU, so that we may perhaps get better left wing policies? That's a lot to ask for. To be honest I think parking the blame for so many of Europe's problems at the EU is myopic, the truth is that the controversial policies that are associated with the EU, like its neoliberalism, is borne more than anything out of its constituent nations and their political cultures. Getting rid of the EU won't really help, especially since countries like Germany or France have such massive economic and political influence around Europe, and honestly having the EU in place at least brings certain assurances on things like consumer and worker protection, as well as assistance on infrastructure and corruption. One thing that I thought was so weird in Ireland recently was that it was the EU trying to force Apple to pay ridiculous amounts of dodged taxes over the years while the Irish government was opposing Apple paying taxes to its own country. It was so surreal, but the whole argument was that whorey idea that without paying basically no taxation companies would avoid the Emerald Isle like the plague so we better get on our hands and knees and offer anything possible to get them here. That kind of crony crap happens without the EU in spades.
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Apr 28, 2017 23:38
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Shibawanko posted:I have known multiple people who were adults in the GDR and who said it was not perfect, but acceptable and livable. Maybe modern day America is livable for you, probably because you're either not poor, not black, not hispanic or not chronically ill or whatever other state of being that makes life in modern day America pretty awful.* *except when compared to literally any other time in history.
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Apr 28, 2017 23:52
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khwarezm posted:One thing that I thought was so weird in Ireland recently was that it was the EU trying to force Apple to pay ridiculous amounts of dodged taxes over the years while the Irish government was opposing Apple paying taxes to its own country. It was so surreal, but the whole argument was that whorey idea that without paying basically no taxation companies would avoid the Emerald Isle like the plague so we better get on our hands and knees and offer anything possible to get them here. That kind of crony crap happens without the EU in spades. If I were boss of the EU, I'd have told Apple to pay the dodged taxes directly to the EU budget since Ireland doesn't want that money; and for the same reason I'd have docked by an equal amount the EU subsidies paid to Ireland. The messages would be, to corporation, you're gonna pay your fair taxes regardless of schemes so better don't try shady stuff; and to member states, if you don't want money, you'll get your loving wish.
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Apr 29, 2017 00:05
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Cat Mattress posted:If I were boss of the EU, I'd have told Apple to pay the dodged taxes directly to the EU budget since Ireland doesn't want that money; and for the same reason I'd have docked by an equal amount the EU subsidies paid to Ireland. The messages would be, to corporation, you're gonna pay your fair taxes regardless of schemes so better don't try shady stuff; and to member states, if you don't want money, you'll get your loving wish. That would require the EU doing more than the bare minimum needed to keep up appearances in fighting tax avoidance. It's not like we don't know which nations facilitate most of it (Luxembourg, the Netherlands, the UK and Ireland at the moment) it's just there really isn't any real ambition to do anything about it. Our top centre politicians (both left and right) all rely on being on good terms with businesses and capital to get those cushy consultancy gigs you hear so much about when they're out of office.
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Apr 29, 2017 00:41
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to no one's surprise, the gaullist candidate (lol) Dupont-Aignan will support Le Pen.
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Apr 29, 2017 07:36
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charles de gaulles was a big fan of the oas
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Apr 29, 2017 07:45
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Shibawanko posted:I have known multiple people who were adults in the GDR and who said it was not perfect, but acceptable and livable. Maybe modern day America is livable for you, probably because you're either not poor, not black, not hispanic or not chronically ill or whatever other state of being that makes life in modern day America pretty awful. Ever heard of survivor's bias? Of course the people that gave their life trying to get away from that dump couldn't tell you now how lovely a place the GDR was. The people you know probably were the ones spying on their neighbours and reporting every dissenter to the StaSi.
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Apr 29, 2017 07:58
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Deltasquid posted:Lol. There's no liberal conspiracy to return to the ancien régime you dunce. They just think market deregulations are the best way to organize society and they're mistaken about it. You are really naive, and also don't know what feudalism means. In feudalism the king, and the hierarchy all they way down, have a contract with their subjects, where they receive their service and offer protection in return. Neoliberalism offers nothing but suffering, poverty and death for those who lose the social lottery. Feudalism is objectively a better system of government than neoliberal capitalism.
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Apr 29, 2017 08:06
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Lots of people here that don't know poo poo about what feudalism actually means or what it was (or when or even if). e: Also lol at the notion of wanting to live in loving East Germany. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Apr 29, 2017 |
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Apr 29, 2017 08:42
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doverhog posted:Feudalism is objectively a better system of government than neoliberal capitalism. Somebody should screenshot stuff like this and the GDR guy and make a D&D.jpg thread in GBS.
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Apr 29, 2017 08:46
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Randarkman posted:e: Also lol at the notion of wanting to live in loving East Germany. Can't we all just agree that both GDR and America are awful and no one sane would want to live in either?
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Apr 29, 2017 08:51
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TheRat posted:Can't we all just agree that both GDR and America are awful and no one sane would want to live in either? Jesus Christ. America is a loving paradise compared to every single communist country through history.
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Apr 29, 2017 08:57
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Sure, but would you prefer to live in an European social democracy or Trump's America?
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Apr 29, 2017 09:00
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doverhog posted:Sure, but would you prefer to live in an European social democracy or Trump's America? moving the goalposts are we?
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Apr 29, 2017 09:02
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Randarkman posted:moving the goalposts are we? Yes, you did.
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Apr 29, 2017 09:05
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doverhog posted:Sure, but would you prefer to live in an European social democracy or Trump's America? I know quite a few people that would emigrate to Trump's America were it not for visa requirements.
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Apr 29, 2017 09:05
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Randarkman posted:moving the goalposts are we? I've not mentioned communism once in this thread, so no idea what you are talking about.
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Apr 29, 2017 09:05
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TheRat posted:Yes, you did. By doing the comparison with every communist country rather than just East Germany?
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Apr 29, 2017 09:07
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Randarkman posted:By doing the comparison with every communist country rather than just East Germany? Yes. Neither of the people you were responding to said anything related to this.
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Apr 29, 2017 09:11
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TheRat posted:Yes. Neither of the people you were responding to said anything related to this. Except the guy i responded to did.
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Apr 29, 2017 09:14
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