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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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65 | 21.52% |
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guidoanselmi posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/05/02/hillary-clinton-adds-misogyny-and-more-to-the-list-of-reasons-she-lost/ She's going to try and run again, isn't she?
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May 2, 2017 21:07
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Famethrowa posted:The American military is far more organized and coordinated then Syria ever was. It would take forever for their logistics to fall apart in a meaningful way. Since we're talking hypotheticals: if you could, as if by magic, turn several thousand Americans into revolutionary terrorists tomorrow, I'm sure the military would violently crush them, their would be awful police state fallout, everything horrible you'd expect. If on the other hand we're talking about a future where things have broken down to the point that this happens "organically," I'm not so sure that the military and police would obediently roll over their fellow citizens with tanks. This is not me announcing my brilliant plan to overthrow the government by coopting enlisted military.
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May 2, 2017 21:15
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guidoanselmi posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/05/02/hillary-clinton-adds-misogyny-and-more-to-the-list-of-reasons-she-lost/ lmao she's blaming the loving debate questions
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May 2, 2017 21:20
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Raskolnikov38 posted:lmao she's blaming the loving debate questions isn't that the exact same thing trump is doing
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May 2, 2017 21:26
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Typo posted:isn't that the exact same thing trump is doing Trump isn't a real politician, he's a ridiculous childish clown with dementia. One might hope for the Democrats chosen leader with a lifetime of political experience to shape their entire party around to do a slightly better job. ChairMaster fucked around with this message at 21:31 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 21:29
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Typo posted:The concentration of corporate power today is I'd say similar to that of early 1890s gilded age, populists and progressives equalized societies 100 years ago, it can happen again Citing the successes of an ultimately defeated movement whose historical situation is very much disanalgous to our own is kind of a cold comfort. You may as well be citing the Bolsheviks.
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May 2, 2017 22:07
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AstheWorldWorlds posted:Citing the successes of an ultimately defeated movement whose historical situation is very much disanalgous to our own is kind of a cold comfort. They weren't ultimately defeated no, you would be right to argue that some of their progress was rolled back though Social security, the FDA, income tax being constitutional, popular election of senators, and the administrative state are proof of that. Despite a few generations of Republicans try to rollback on them they have never succeed quote:whose historical situation is very much disanalgous quote:You may as well be citing the Bolsheviks.
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May 2, 2017 22:12
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the only significant federal welfare program that's actually ever being reformed was AFDC during the Clinton administrition btw, the Republicans tried and couldn't even rolback 60s era programs like medicare and medicaid. SS/Medicare are basically never going away because their beneficiaries are old white people who form the core of the Republican base and those people are smart enough to revolt every single time someone tries to touch their benefits
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May 2, 2017 22:19
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Typo posted:the only significant federal welfare program that's actually ever being reformed was AFDC during the Clinton administrition btw, the Republicans tried and couldn't even rolback 60s era programs like medicare and medicaid. except when the dems try to slash them. the only thing that stopped them last time was the suicide caucus wanted deeper cuts
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May 2, 2017 22:20
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Typo posted:They weren't ultimately defeated no, you would be right to argue that some of their progress was rolled back though The meager reforms that were able to be passed survive, in a sense, but the movement that made them and the political will to further them is gone. It will only be a matter of time before the will to maintain them disappears as well. The party that pushed for these reforms now mirrors the ideological opponents the early dems had to fight to get even the pathetic skeleton of FDR's reforms passed. Sorry, that is a total defeat. There is popular desire to do things, sure, but the ability to actually harness it is essentially gone. The Democrats either refuse the call or actively dismantle anyone who tries to get genuine leftism, which further illustrates the degree of defeat in the left. Edit: Also I do not think the situations then and now are at all analogous. The situation just with labor is very different, as is the threat that automation and globalization play in weakening labor to the point of irrelevance. Leftist organizations were also significantly stronger then. AstheWorldWorlds fucked around with this message at 22:37 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 22:33
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Raskolnikov38 posted:lmao she's blaming the loving debate questions Her debate performances were weak as poo poo, especially her last two. Donald stepped off the crazy gas just a little bit and she floundered and couldn't knock him down at all. I remember watching and being amazed at how idiotic Trump's ideas were and how that was just glossed over (often too much by the moderators as well). The debates were on while I was at work and I had the unpleasant reminder that most Americans don't know anything about history or government. Trump spouting nonsense, but simply laid out nonsense, appealed to a lot of non conservative people. The hatred for Hillary was also a huge factor. Left-leaning but politically uninvolved people mistrusted her with a passion. Their delight in seeing Trump poo poo all over Clinton, even in a childish and idiotic way, outweighed Trump's terrible policy they didn't agree with. It was surreal to see so many young people, in California, soften up on Trump because Hillary was so hated. Of course she's planning her big return to "the resistance" now. It'll be interesting to see if she can actually help with anything or if she is so tainted that her connection to something is a political liability.
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May 2, 2017 22:32
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AstheWorldWorlds posted:The meager reforms that were able to be passed survive, in a sense, but the movement that made them and the political will to further them is gone. The early 1900s came at a time when the pendulum was swinging leftwards after decades of Lincoln and William McKinley's Republicans practiced Laissez-Faire capitalism to industrialize the country and was led by progressives who grew up in the era of union riots and poor people being crushed by said Laissez-faire capitalism. They didn't succeed easily either, but suffered numerous defeats: see William Jenning Bryan's 3 failed attempts at getting elected president. The boomers grew up in unparalleled economic prosperity and that's a major reason why culture and not economic populism succeeded, "god, guns, gays" and hatred of the liberal cultural elites were much more important than economic issues when everyone was doing at least ok economically and the richest people weren't much wealthier than the middle class. Then you had a once in 50 years politician who sold to the American people the idea that hardwork==success and that the government was the problem and not the solution. The Reagan majority combined cultural populism with libertarian economic ideas and was to dominate the US all the way up until today but is fundamentally rooted in the boomer experience, southern evangelical culture and the economics of the 70s-90s. It's just that we are on the tail end of that majority now just as Carter was the tail end of the New Deal Coalition. And coincidentally the current standard bearer of Reaganomics is just as ineffectual as Carter was of the new deal. quote:It will only be a matter of time before the will to maintain them disappears as well. The party that pushed for these reforms now mirrors the ideological opponents the early dems had to fight to get even the pathetic skeleton of FDR's reforms passed. Sorry, that is a total defeat. quote:There is popular desire to do things, sure, but the ability to actually harness it is essentially gone. The Democrats either refuse the call or actively dismantle anyone who tries to get genuine leftism, which further illustrates the degree of defeat in the left.
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May 2, 2017 22:52
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AstheWorldWorlds posted:
Right, the solution is new organizational structures: social media was incredibly effective at organizing both bernie and trump supporters in 2016 for example
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May 2, 2017 22:53
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guidoanselmi posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/05/02/hillary-clinton-adds-misogyny-and-more-to-the-list-of-reasons-she-lost/ However it is entirely her fault, as in not attributable in any serious way to Russia, Comey, or misogyny, that the election was so close in the first place and that she took the House and Senate down with her, instead of leading an absolute blowout up and down the ballot like the Democrats should have been able to.
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May 2, 2017 23:01
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Kilroy posted:It's probably fair to say that it's not Hillary Clinton's fault that she lost by a razor-thin margin instead of winning by a razor-thin margin. I see her loss as having been totally avoidable and I think everyone in her campaign is to blame for that. Separately, I personally don't believe Comey really gave a reason for more people to vote against Clinton or stay home such that the state vote counts would have really changed between October 28 (or whenever he made his statement about the investigation) and election day. I further believe that most people who were undecided at that point probably didn't even pay attention to the news or didn't even know how to contextualize it beyond "well, maybe she lied" which still only reenforces what seems to have been popular perception. I might be wrong and it would have been interesting to have polled people to see whose vote was actually motivated by Comey.
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May 2, 2017 23:58
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Raskolnikov38 posted:lmao she's blaming the loving debate questions Well she got used to them being leaked to her in advance...
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May 3, 2017 00:20
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Kilroy posted:It's probably fair to say that it's not Hillary Clinton's fault that she lost by a razor-thin margin instead of winning by a razor-thin margin. This. Throughout the general election, even those of us who had voted for Bernie, but wanted her to beat Trump, were warning her die-hard fans here that this was going to be much, much closer than it had any right to be. And, in the same smug-rear end tones that we still get from JeffersonClay to this day, they told us that we were worrying over nothing, that Clinton had this poo poo nailed down. I'd be so much more willing to forgive if they (or Clinton herself) showed any inclination towards accepting their own responsibility for her loss, but...nope.
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May 3, 2017 00:28
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Majorian posted:This. Throughout the general election, even those of us who had voted for Bernie, but wanted her to beat Trump, were warning her die-hard fans here that this was going to be much, much closer than it had any right to be. And, in the same smug-rear end tones that we still get from JeffersonClay to this day, they told us that we were worrying over nothing, that Clinton had this poo poo nailed down. who knew she'd blow a 7 point lead two weeks before the election 
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May 3, 2017 01:50
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:who knew she'd blow a 7 point lead two weeks before the election As it turns out, that 7-point lead wasn't, errrr, really a 7-point lead. Plus, Jesus Christ, dude - you know if she hadn't cocked up the emails question so thoroughly and repeatedly earlier in the campaign, the Comey poo poo wouldn't have made any difference at all. Stop defending your terrible candidate.
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May 3, 2017 02:17
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Or it was real and Comey cost her 3 points. 
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May 3, 2017 02:27
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Donald trump is a piss golem clown, it never should have been that close
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May 3, 2017 02:28
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also just more of my musings I think the cultural wars which defined us politics since the 1970s or so is burning itself out. The fundamental theme of said cultural war was a referendum over the values of the counter-culture of the 1960s vs the value of Nixon's silent majority and Reagan's moral majority. The most intense portion of it I think basically comes down to the question of whether America is a Christian country or not and I think liberals have mostly won at this point. The big issues: abortions, gays, feminism etc have more or less being fought over and the winners and losers determined. Liberals won decisively on gay marriage and repudiating the sexual morality of white protestant America. Rights for women are probably the best it's ever being in history (though we can debate about how much further it needs to go). Abortion turned out to be a narrow liberal victory and the roe v wade status quo is likely to remain for at least a generation. The only real big win for conservatives was gun control. I think the next set of cultural wars are already starting: and it basically comes down to nationalism vs globalism and is America a nation-state like France or is America a "universal nation" and an idea. Atm, immigration is the most clear demarcation line so far but overall I think this set of cultural wars is going to be much less disconnected from economics than abortion or school prayer was.
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May 3, 2017 02:31
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You forgot the biggest cultural issue, the one that strongly predicted Obama to Trump defectors, racismRaskolnikov38 posted:Donald trump is a piss golem clown, it never should have been that close Underestimating Trump's appeal was one of Clinton's biggest mistakes. Learn something from the election jeez. JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 02:34 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 02:31
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JeffersonClay posted:Underestimating Trump's appeal was one of Clinton's biggest mistakes. Learn something from the election jeez. We have. You're the one who refuses to learn any lesson from it, because to you, abuelita cannot fail - she can only be failed.
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May 3, 2017 02:33
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You're quoting a post where I reference Clinton's mistakes, genius.
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May 3, 2017 02:35
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JeffersonClay posted:You're quoting a post where I reference Clinton's mistakes, genius. "Underestimating Trump's appeal" doesn't even begin to describe her mistakes. e: lol nice edit JeffersonClay posted:You forgot the biggest cultural issue, the one that strongly predicted Obama to Trump defectors, racism That's a factor that is beyond the Democrats' control, at least in the immediate term. It was certainly beyond their control in 2016. You don't get to write off the catastrophic failure of your electoral strategy on account of exogenous factors. Your strategy was bad. Admit it. Change it. Adapt with reality. Majorian fucked around with this message at 02:42 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 02:37
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Typo posted:Rights for women are probably the best it's ever being in history (though we can debate about how much further it needs to go). Much further: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/08/opinion/pregnant-and-no-civil-rights.html?_r=1 quote:WITH the success of Republicans in the midterm elections and the passage of Tennessee’s anti-abortion amendment, we can expect ongoing efforts to ban abortion and advance the “personhood” rights of fertilized eggs, embryos and fetuses. Mister Facetious fucked around with this message at 02:44 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 02:39
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If we rehash exactly where you and I think Clinton made mistakes you're still going to be wrong because I'm not suggesting Clinton made no mistakes. That's why your comment is dumb.Majorian posted:That's a factor that is beyond the Democrats' control, at least in the immediate term. It was certainly beyond their control in 2016. You don't get to write off the catastrophic failure of your electoral strategy on account of exogenous factors. Your strategy was bad. Admit it. Change it. Adapt with reality. Lol don't talk about racism because Hillary was bad. OK dude. JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 02:46 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 02:44
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JeffersonClay posted:If we rehash exactly where you and I think Clinton made mistakes you're still going to be wrong because I'm not suggesting Clinton made no mistakes. That's why your comment is dumb. I couldn't possibly give less of a poo poo about your dumb technicalities. Stop trying to worm your way out of this argument, and address your failings. quote:Lol don't talk about racism because Hillary was bad. OK dude. Talk about racism in one of the many threads about racism. Here, we talk about where the Democrats need to improve.
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May 3, 2017 02:48
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Majorian posted:I couldn't possibly give less of a poo poo about your dumb technicalities. Stop trying to worm your way out of this argument, and address your failings. quote:Talk about racism in one of the many threads about racism. Here, we talk about where the Democrats need to improve. 
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May 3, 2017 02:51
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JeffersonClay, so far we only have "Clinton underestimated Trump" is the most detail you have offered on where you think Clinton went wrong. How do you think that Clinton should have changed the approach to her campaign, if she had known only that she was underestimating Trump and that the election would be closer than the polls said?
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May 3, 2017 03:00
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Why was racism a decisive factor in the loss of the (white woman) Clinton, but not Obama? Assuming O-O-T voters voted on the grounds of racial prejudice doesn't have any explanatory power.
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May 3, 2017 02:59
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You're just starting from the assumption that not voting Clinton is racist, ergo it was racism. That's a transparent attempt at obsfucation of ideology. In particular it ignores that Trump made an attack on trade deals a cornerstone of his campaign. Perhaps the people who voted O O T did so in the basis on that promise?
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May 3, 2017 03:02
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JeffersonClay posted:Or it was real and Comey cost her 3 points. Why do you keep defending Hillary. Why.
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May 3, 2017 03:11
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rudatron posted:You're just starting from the assumption that not voting Clinton is racist, ergo it was racism. That's a transparent attempt at obsfucation of ideology. In particular it ignores that Trump made an attack on trade deals a cornerstone of his campaign. Perhaps the people who voted O O T did so in the basis on that promise? Not to mention that all of the racist poo poo Trump spouted was inextricably intertwined with the economic woes that the regions that swung OOT are suffering from. Plus, as that McClatchey study pretty clearly shows, the JeffersonClay strategy of "gently caress appealing to the working class; let's just make it about Trump!  " has literally no hope of working.Alienwarehouse posted:Why do you keep defending Hillary. Why. Ego. He doesn't want to admit how terribly wrong he was, not just to back Hillary in the primary, but to poo poo on people who weren't enthused about her during the general election.
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May 3, 2017 03:10
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galenanorth posted:JeffersonClay, so far we only have "Clinton underestimated Trump" is the most detail you have offered on where you think Clinton went wrong. How do you think that Clinton should have changed the approach to her campaign, if she had known only that she was underestimating Trump and that the election would be closer than the polls said? You've got far more than that if you care to go looking, actually, but I'll summarize because I recognize this isn't an audience with an excess of reading comprehension skill. Didn't talk enough about the economy (because she underestimated Trump's appeal to working class voters). Relied too much on appeals to pluralism (because she underestimated Trump's appeal to racists and misogynists, and overestimated the number of Republicans who would balk at Trump's odiousness). Ran a dysfunctional campaign. rudatron posted:Why was racism a decisive factor in the loss of the (white woman) Clinton, but not Obama? Assuming O-O-T voters voted on the grounds of racial prejudice doesn't have any explanatory power. Trump directly appealed to white identity in a way that McCain and Romney did not. White racists often do not hate literally every single person of color, and often talk about "the good ones" or friends of color they think they have. Voting for Obama and holding racist views are not mutually exclusive, at all. Oops wait should we be talking about this here?
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May 3, 2017 03:12
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JeffersonClay posted:You've got far more than that if you care to go looking, actually, but I'll summarize because I recognize this isn't an audience with an excess of reading comprehension skill. It's not just that she didn't talk about it enough, dingus; her entire thesis that "the economy's doing great for a lot of Americans; therefore, who could possibly complain?" was 100% wrong. Do yourself a favor: read Listen, Liberal, and don't post until you've done so, because holy poo poo, you have a lot to learn.
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May 3, 2017 03:16
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rudatron posted:You're just starting from the assumption that not voting Clinton is racist, ergo it was racism. That's a transparent attempt at obsfucation of ideology. In particular it ignores that Trump made an attack on trade deals a cornerstone of his campaign. Perhaps the people who voted O O T did so in the basis on that promise? Wrong. https://theintercept.com/2017/04/06/top-democrats-are-wrong-trump-supporters-were-more-motivated-by-racism-than-economic-issues/ Alienwarehouse posted:Why do you keep defending Hillary. Why. Why do you keep defending racists and republicans. Why. Majorian posted:Not to mention that all of the racist poo poo Trump spouted was inextricably intertwined with the economic woes that the regions that swung OOT are suffering from. quote:Ego. He doesn't want to admit how terribly wrong he was, not just to back Hillary in the primary, but to poo poo on people who weren't enthused about her during the general election. Majorian posted:It's not just that she didn't talk about it enough, dingus; her entire thesis that "the economy's doing great for a lot of Americans; therefore, who could possibly complain?" was 100% wrong. Do yourself a favor: read Listen, Liberal, and don't post until you've done so, because holy poo poo, you have a lot to learn. No that's just more idiotic bernout bullshit. Sorry, that's ambiguous. Your synopsis of her economic thesis is idiotic bernout bullshit and that book probably is too. Edit: The second page of the sample online (chapter 11) begins: quote:“You see corporations making record profits, with CEOs making record pay, but your paychecks have barely budged,”Hillary declared in June 2015, launching her presidential campaign. “Prosperity can’t be just for CEOs and hedge fund managers.” Second self-refutation from you today. JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 03:45 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 03:21
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Hmmmm, let's take a look at that Intercept piece...quote:Both Sanders and Warren seem much keener to lay the blame at the door of the dysfunctional Democratic Party and an ailing economy than at the feet of racist Republican voters. Their deflection isn’t surprising. Nor is their coddling of those who happily embraced an openly xenophobic candidate. Oh wow, yeah, this guy sounds objective and doesn't have an axe to grind.
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May 3, 2017 03:47
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It's not so much that racism shouldn't be discussed, but more the fact that the racism is always brought up in response to people pointing out mistakes Democrats/Hillary made. It clearly is being brought up in an attempt to deflect attention away from the other issues people are mentioning. As a result, it doesn't really seem like genuine concern and instead just seems like an attempt to detract from other arguments. Ultimately we can't really do much about racist voters, so literally nothing is accomplished by repeatedly discussing the obvious fact that a bunch of people are racist. Like, yeah, they sure are, but acknowledging that isn't going to magically change anything. The Republican base, who also make up the vast majority of Trump voters (it doesn't make sense to act like "Trump voters" are some new phenomenon; the vast majority are literally just regular Republicans*), aren't fundamentally much different than they've always been, and there's little you can do to change their behavior. I mean, if it'll make you feel better I can add some "yes a bunch of voters are racist" addendum to every one of my posts, but what is the point of it? Pretty much everyone in this thread realizes it's a problem, but it's a problem Democrats have no control over. All they can control is their own policies, messages, and candidates. Like, let's say everyone in this thread goes "yeah, Democrats lost this election due to racists." Like, what comes after that? I don't really see any response that other than "welp, poo poo. Looks like it's time to throw in the towel because People Are Bad." Complaints about things the Democrats actually do have actual tangible solutions. *I feel like this is an important point, because I always hear people talking about "Trump voters" like they're some distinct group of people from the same Republican voters who have always existed. Aside from a small minority of Obama -> Trump converts, the vast majority of these people are regular Republicans. This is why they tend to be relatively well off, etc. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 03:58 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 03:55
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