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AP posted:I can see the appeal of letting Corbyn stay on to fail, I don't think it will make much difference though as his supporters are so dumb they'll look for any excuse not to take responsibility during the aftermath. That's why I see the Labour split coming. A one party state (Scotland somewhat excluded) isn't healthy for the country and Labour is currently lead by complete idiots. You think in order to prevent a one party state we should take the only opposition party that consistently polls above 10% and split it into two parties? I'm not sure you know what you're talking about.
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May 6, 2017 00:52
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AP posted:Logic won't work, Corbyn vowed to retain the triple-lock for pensioners and most people here thought it was a good idea. Pensioners are doing well. But they're also voters. The ones that actually turn out.
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May 6, 2017 00:58
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They are also people, and the party of the welfare state should not be in the business of taking money from those supported by said state before a great many other options have been exhausted.
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May 6, 2017 01:03
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I'm still going to go with if the local labour councillors don't bother campaigning or sending out leaflets because they, like Kinnock, believe the election to be in the bag, and the Tory councillors buy four pages, including the front cover, of a local newspaper with a very high circulation and send in Theresa loving May to Clay Cross of all places, then it might not be entirely Corbyn's fault that they suffered monumental losses in the Derbyshire council elections. Edit: seriously, all they needed to do was go "poo poo they've got one over on us, Jeramy you need to come down here quick and point at a couple of closed down banks looking angry!" learnincurve fucked around with this message at 01:09 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 01:02
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Seaside Loafer posted:Put pissflaps and hakimashou on ignore and it gets semi-readable When people remember to stop loving quoting them.
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May 6, 2017 01:09
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learnincurve posted:I'm still going to go with if the local labour councillors don't bother campaigning or sending out leaflets because they, like Kinnock, believe the election to be in the bag, and the Tory councillors buy four pages, including the front cover, of a local newspaper with a very high circulation and send in Theresa loving May to Clay Cross of all places, then it might not be entirely Corbyn's fault that they suffered monumental losses in the Derbyshire council elections. The Tory who won the West Midlands mayoral election is widely assumed to have done so because he (as the former MD of John Lewis) spent about 10 times more on the election than the rest of the candidates put together. Democracy's dead, people just vote for whoever has the deepest pockets.
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May 6, 2017 01:11
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hakimashou posted:*Noted three time election winner and last labour leader to beat the tories Tony Blair. The only Labour Prime Ministers anybody under 50 can remember were poo poo - Vote Labour 2017!
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May 6, 2017 01:21
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It costs nothing to knock on doors, it was utter complacency at a grass roots level. They assumed that there was no way a ex-mining area would vote Tory. They were in part right, In a few areas they didnt, they voted Lib dem instead of labour which was unfortunate because the lib dem areas all voted Tory.
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May 6, 2017 01:26
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:The only Labour Prime Ministers anybody under 50 can remember were poo poo - Vote Labour 2017!
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May 6, 2017 01:30
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Julio Cruz posted:When people remember to stop loving quoting them. A reminder that if people must quote the flappable one, to replace the quoted text with this: 
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May 6, 2017 01:31
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OwlFancier posted:lol if you think the tories are cutting pensions out of "fairness" and lol if you think that defunding pensioners is needed to pay for other things. I didn't say that, the Tories have avoided committing to the triple lock because they fully intend to break it. They have tax rises signaled to the electorate targeted at their core voters, that's how scared of Corbyn they are. And yes for a normal person assuming you can pay for everything and the reason the Tories don't because they are evil is how the 2010 election was fought and how the 2015 election was fought. Look how well that turned out, while in the real world what the Tories did closely matched what Darling had actually planned in 2010
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May 6, 2017 01:33
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jabby posted:You think in order to prevent a one party state we should take the only opposition party that consistently polls above 10% and split it into two parties? No ideally you kick the loonies out of the Labour party or at least keep them under control but I think it's too late for that.
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May 6, 2017 01:35
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I am not prepared to support a party that campaigns on dismantling the welfare state. That is an integral part of our society and I have absolutely no use for a party which does not share that view.
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May 6, 2017 01:38
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jBrereton posted:Hey remember when ESA existed to help flatten educational attainment between classes, the FJF existed to help people coming out of uni who couldn't find work, and Sure Start existed to help people with kids? Truly a worse time than nowadays.
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May 6, 2017 01:40
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AP posted:I didn't say that, the Tories have avoided committing to the triple lock because they fully intend to break it. They have tax rises signaled to the electorate targeted at their core voters, that's how scared of Corbyn they are. "I think XYZ is going to happen" "You think XYZ SHOULD happen? Someone who supports XYZ is awful! " is a very very common form of tedious pissantry that you run into a lot from the corybnistas and similar. The brilliant Nick Cohen from the Guardian put it really really well in his appeal to them. He acknowledged that sure, the Party Member types like corbyn and picked him, but gave them a solemn warning of what was to come and a desperate admonition: "In my respectful opinion, your only honourable response will be to stop being a loving fool by changing your loving mind." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/19/jeremy-corbyn-labour-threat-party-election-support
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May 6, 2017 01:40
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Blair did good things but he also lied to lead us into a war of aggression. Even if you forgive him for that the wider public has not.
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May 6, 2017 01:42
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hakimashou posted:The brilliant Nick Cohen gently caress off, genocide-lover
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May 6, 2017 01:43
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AP posted:No ideally you kick the loonies out of the Labour party or at least keep them under control but I think it's too late for that. Splitting Labour would lead to five opposition parties (Old Labour, New Labour, Lib Dems, UKIP and Greens) all taking somewhere between zero and fifteen percent of the vote, and the Tories sitting on 40% plus. That would not be an improvement on what we have now.
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May 6, 2017 01:45
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I genuinely couldn't even imagine it would be this bad.
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May 6, 2017 01:46
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hakimashou posted:"I think XYZ is going to happen" I eagerly await someone posting a strong defense of the "principled" Corbyn policy of retaining the triple lock for any reason other that it might gain some votes.
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May 6, 2017 01:50
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jabby posted:Splitting Labour would lead to five opposition parties (Old Labour, New Labour, Lib Dems, UKIP and Greens) all taking somewhere between zero and fifteen percent of the vote, and the Tories sitting on 40% plus. That would not be an improvement on what we have now. Macron
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May 6, 2017 01:52
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AP posted:Macron I'm afraid you have the wrong country
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May 6, 2017 01:53
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AP posted:I eagerly await someone posting a strong defense of the "principled" Corbyn policy of retaining the triple lock for any reason other that it might gain some votes. How about the fact that the current state pension is about £8300 a year.
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May 6, 2017 01:57
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AP posted:No ideally you kick the loonies out of the Labour party or at least keep them under control but I think it's too late for that. What loonies? The 'far left' of Labour want the NHS protecting, more houses and, worker rights and a fairer society. They're not after full communism. If this is too much for you and other 'moderates' I don't know why any of us bother. What is it you want from the opposition to the Tories? For the record I think Corbyn is trash. But not because of his policies. I don't think he is a 'loony'. But if you have issues with the basic left wing ideas that have been floated then maybe you're not really a labour voter anyway.
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May 6, 2017 02:19
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Regarde Aduck posted:What loonies? The 'far left' of Labour want the NHS protecting, more houses and, worker rights and a fairer society. They're not after full communism. If this is too much for you and other 'moderates' I don't know why any of us bother. What is it you want from the opposition to the Tories? A "loony" is anyone who thinks "jeremy corbyn should be leader of the labour party." The test never needs to get to anything about policy. hakimashou fucked around with this message at 02:24 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 02:22
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jabby posted:Since you're like the third person to miss my point, it was a sarcastic comment on the fact that Labour councils will suffer from greater budget cuts than their Tory counterparts. Oh good. It was sarcasm. You almost had me thinking you were a tit there.
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May 6, 2017 02:45
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AP posted:Macron congratulations on being so politically unaware that you can't tell the difference between a presidential election conducted under a run off system and a first past the post parliamentary election. serious gaylord posted:I genuinely couldn't even imagine it would be this bad. a respectable third place for Plaid Cymru. Maybe they should expand nationally under the justification this all belonged to the cymry before the perfidious Saxons and the even more perfidious Scots infested our fair isle.
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May 6, 2017 03:22
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hakimashou posted:A "loony" is anyone who thinks "jeremy corbyn should be leader of the labour party." Alternatively they are someone who cares about your leftie-bashing concern troll comments Well maybe they're not loonies, but that doesn't make the second part of the sentence any less true Private Speech fucked around with this message at 03:38 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 03:34
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Jonathan Freedland has a very good piece in the Guardian about what's going on: "Blaming others won’t do. Instead, how refreshing it would be, just this once, if Corbyn and McDonnell put their hands up and took even a small measure of responsibility for this calamitous result. Instead of always playing the besieged victim, they could accept that, as Enoch Powell once observed, a politician complaining about the press is as absurd as a sailor complaining about the sea. Navigating a way through is simply what they have to do. It would mean admitting that they have failed to deliver what they promised. They said they would win back Scotland, energise the Labour base, galvanise non-voters, lure back Ukip defectors and pull in Greens – and not one of those things has happened. Yet in the face of all this, they dig in and cling on, refusing to budge. Why are they so stubborn? It can’t be a tenacious commitment to socialism. Corbyn and McDonnell’s programme includes nothing remotely as leftwing as, say, the £5bn windfall tax on the utilities promised, and implemented, 20 years ago by the supposed “evil neoliberal” Tony Blair. Having finally won control of the Labour party after three decades of Stakhanovite effort, what radical programme have these great revolutionaries pledged to the nation? Four extra bank holidays. The good news for Labour is that what I saw in the focus groups were people unimpressed by the Tories, desperate for an opposition and itching to vote Labour again if only Corbyn would get out of the way. It suggests a new leader could take the fight to Theresa May very rapidly. The bad news is that once people have broken a lifelong Labour habit – and shattered a taboo by voting Tory – they may never come back."" https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/05/jeremy-corbyn-blame-meltdown-labour-leader hakimashou fucked around with this message at 05:16 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 05:13
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hakimashou posted:Jonathan Freedland has a very good piece in the Guardian about what's going on: Lol yes Enoch Powell had some good ideas and was a nice lad who meant well
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May 6, 2017 06:11
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hakimashou posted:... a politician complaining about the press is as absurd as a sailor complaining about the sea. Navigating a way through is simply what they have to do. focused-grouped, headline-guided triangulation is a major ideological point of contention, not a minor side issue, surely we don't describe it in terms of "false consciousness" any more but there is still a broad assumption amongst the Labour left that 1) the people at large are left-wing, but 2) are not yet consciously organised as such, and 3) await only a movement that can awaken this latent tendency the iron logic of triangulation is terminally limiting for the ideological imagination. it implies that the space of the possible is very, very small. it implies the death of radical change. it implies that the degree to which a government can pursue an agenda to the left is not set by the conviction and passion of one's supporters - who, after all, still only count for one vote each, however passionately they mark their ballot - but by the relative indiscipline of the right, and vice versa.
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May 6, 2017 06:14
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JFairfax posted:Lol yes Enoch Powell had some good ideas and was a nice lad who meant well lol you didn't read the article and you and your uni mates are going to hand the country over to the Tories forever
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May 6, 2017 06:23
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JFairfax posted:Lol yes Enoch Powell had some good ideas and was a nice lad who meant well Turns out the real Rivers of Blood are going to be Labour's come June 8th. 
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May 6, 2017 06:27
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I suppose Labour's path to victory in June could be engaging with non-voters on social media and at rallies?
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May 6, 2017 07:10
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OwlFancier posted:The Tees Valley mayor actually covers a surprising amount of the countryside outside of the actual boro. Fact check: Tom Blenkinsop increased his majority at the last election, with the Tories losing vote share. The 'Tees Valley' is a labour heartland. If a Tory mayoral candidate can win here then any constituencies in it are at risk in June
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May 6, 2017 07:19
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Just fyi, when the German SPD replaced their odious leader they jumped in the polls and closed an 20% gap - it's now widening again because people in their hearts know that left-wing parties are all bad, but in the UK it seems like the Conservatives are even worse, so an actual functioning Labour party might have been something good.ronya posted:focused-grouped, headline-guided triangulation is a major ideological point of contention, not a minor side issue, surely You can nudge a country on a certain path and still navigate towards a certain, far away goal. In the case of the UK a deeper integration into the EU for example would have been much more effective in furthering the goals of the left (e.g. worker rights, social welfare, you name it) than the idea of leaving because with the perfect being the enemy of the good. Or, to quote Shakespeare not Voltair "striving to better, oft we mar what's well". GaussianCopula fucked around with this message at 07:41 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 07:33
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https://excelpope.wordpress.com/2017/05/05/rant/ I think it’s fair to say that the past 18 months have put me firmly on the anti- side of the Corbyn argument. On Twitter I’ve made a lot of jokes at the expense of Corbyn and his supporters, on Facebook, and in real life, I’ve argued and debated with them, been round and round their loops of obfuscation and denial, but I’ve never been angry with them. Until now. I think this is probably quite a common sentiment.
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May 6, 2017 07:48
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GaussianCopula posted:Just fyi, when the German SPD replaced their odious leader they jumped in the polls and closed an 20% gap - it's now widening again because people in their hearts know that left-wing parties are all bad, but in the UK it seems like the Conservatives are even worse, so an actual functioning Labour party might have been something good. gently caress off nazi oval office
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May 6, 2017 07:53
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serious gaylord posted:I genuinely couldn't even imagine it would be this bad. Im sorry for your loss. They've still got one seat though and if you ask very nicely Nige might come back.
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May 6, 2017 07:53
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jabby posted:You think in order to prevent a one party state we should take the only opposition party that consistently polls above 10% and split it into two parties?
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May 6, 2017 07:56
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