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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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And like it's obviously the case that single payer health care isn't sufficient for the dawning of a new era of labor power or whatever you want to call it, because even ignoring how so many countries are trying to dismantle their health coverage programs, it's clearly the case that capitalist countries have major government intervention in their healthcare while being neoliberal - case in point, Macron in France
WhiskeyJuvenile fucked around with this message at 00:43 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 00:41
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:And like it's obviously the case that single payer health care isn't sufficient for the dawning of a new era of labor power or whatever you want to call it, because even ignoring how so many countries are trying to dismantle their health coverage programs, it's clearly the case that capitalist countries have major government intervention in their healthcare while being neoliberal - case in point, Macron in France Yeah but this is only true if equate Neoliberalism with a lack of government intervention which is usually far from the case with that system, even thought the rhetoric might contradict it. Actually most neoliberals have a pretty good understanding that the state is a crucial actor in the maintenance of private profits be it with investment or regulation (of the type that protects monopolies and cartelization), eg: just look at the American system, where there is loads of government 'intervention', and the market still gets to rule, the only difference is that it's massively inefficient because the healthcare insurance cartels make an obscene ammount of profits. Edit: also relating to your broader point, even a mega failure like the soon to be late Obamacare functioned as massive ideological blow to free-market fundamentalism, it undoubtedly changed the frame of the debate and without it you can be sure single payer healthcare would be seen as literal Utopia instead of the 'pragmatically unfeasable' level it stands now. It opened such a space of political discourse for one of the most vulnerable segments of the population that you had loving Republicans screaming at their representatives to NOT take away life saving regulations. Fados fucked around with this message at 01:22 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 01:16
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*Eye twitches*
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May 8, 2017 03:01
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It's hilarisad watching the same people trying as hard as they can to excuse neoliberal ideology for its colossal failure last November and shift all the blame to Hillary's personality and poor campaign strategy, then go on to argue we should keep following the Robby Mook playbook of "don't try to sell your ideas and hope all the Republicans just forget to vote". A 50-state strategy of suck!
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May 8, 2017 05:05
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wooo Nancy Pelosi is getting primaried by an old Berniebro and i luv it1 the silver lining to trump winning has been the rise of the Left wing across the nation, democratic socialist of america chapters are springing up everywhere , winning local elections, & berniecrats are pushing out the democratic establishment beautiful! i'm doing all i can to boost this guy, including contributing to his campaign & using all social media resources available and he's a savage on twitter too  https://twitter.com/Jaffe4Congress/status/860949776296099840 https://twitter.com/Jaffe4Congress/status/860861575371997184 https://twitter.com/Jaffe4Congress/status/860673120276959232 https://twitter.com/Jaffe4Congress/status/860920357036765184 
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May 8, 2017 05:10
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It's good poo poo and one can only hope they will be as successful as the tea party in shaping party discourse and policy.
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May 8, 2017 07:10
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Commie NedFlanders posted:wooo Nancy Pelosi is getting primaried by an old Berniebro and i luv it1 It was pretty cool when a nationally syndicated article smeared the gently caress out of him. quote:Stephen Jaffe entered the cafe with a small grin, a riotous print shirt and the blithe confidence of someone who doesn’t much care if people think he’s crazy. http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-me-on-politics-column-20170505-story.html
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May 8, 2017 07:39
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Another white male decrying how the economic needs of the white middle class shouldn't take a back seat to minorities? Why I'd never have guessed...
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May 8, 2017 07:41
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15 dollar minimum wage and uhc, truly the planks of white middle class policy goals
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May 8, 2017 07:51
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shrike82 posted:Another white male decrying how the economic needs of the white middle class shouldn't take a back seat to minorities? Only a person as stupid and amoral as yourself could knowingly take a smear piece at face value.
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May 8, 2017 07:50
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It looks like that book detailing Clinton's hilariously inept and lovely campaign entitled 'Shattered' may be getting a TV series based on it. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/business/media/shattered-hillary-clinton-campaign-book-tv-series.html?_r=0 Who gets to play Hillary?
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May 8, 2017 07:56
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And you voted for Trump in Florida.
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May 8, 2017 08:00
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shrike82 posted:And you voted for Trump in Florida. It doesn't matter. Stop obsessing over individual votes.
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May 8, 2017 08:13
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:And like it's obviously the case that single payer health care isn't sufficient for the dawning of a new era of labor power or whatever you want to call it, because even ignoring how so many countries are trying to dismantle their health coverage programs, it's clearly the case that capitalist countries have major government intervention in their healthcare while being neoliberal - case in point, Macron in France it's not sufficient on its own but it's a step in the right direction. mobility of labor is impeded in the US by tying healthcare to employers. employees are less able to leave abusive jobs, and more hurt by being laid off. any move towards actual socialism will result in massive sacrifices by the rich though, and you don't seem to want the rich to even make minor sacrifices for good causes, so i'm not sure why you pretend to be socialist? Condiv fucked around with this message at 09:01 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 08:59
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Have you considered that single-payer isn't Full Communism Now, and therefore it's worthless? Vote Hillary Clinton.
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May 8, 2017 09:01
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There's a weird idea from some Democrats that the "centrist" voter is the only demographic worthy of pursuing their votes. The left is to be taken for granted and expected to vote for you no matter what, and are traitors if they don't like what they see and abstain from voting. The people courted are those right-wing enough to actually vote R, so not centrists at all. Meanwhile the Republicans shift right constantly to solidify tea party support and keep winning elections because of their solid base.
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May 8, 2017 09:17
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The white leftist faction tried and failed with Bernie least year. They're free to try again in 2020 against Corey Booker. In the meantime, with folks like CallMeCharlie, we can except them to support Trump and the GOP on stuff like AHCA with stuff like "bbbut Obamacare isn't single payer".
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May 8, 2017 09:21
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If Corey Booker is the nominee he should not expect the votes of those left on the political spectrum without providing policy goals that are satisfying to them, outside of "not a republican". Edit: this is not to say most won't hold their nose and vote for him as the lesser of two evils. I'm saying the idea that the Democrats deserve the votes of anyone on the left simply by existing is wrong thinking. flashman fucked around with this message at 09:30 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 09:27
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It's a free country but leftists like CMC voting for Trump and Kilroy voting for Stein can and should be mocked.
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May 8, 2017 09:28
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shrike82 posted:It's a free country but leftists like CMC voting for Trump and Kilroy voting for Stein can and should be mocked. Along with leftists who pulled the lever for  .
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May 8, 2017 09:39
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shrike82 posted:It's a free country but leftists like CMC voting for Trump and Kilroy voting for Stein can and should be mocked. *mocks you* VitalSigns posted:Have you considered that single-payer isn't Full Communism Now, and therefore it's worthless? Vote Hillary Clinton. it's not just single-payer he's against. he's against the rich taking a slight hit even for integration reasons. he spent a good bit of time last night hyperventilating about why sam bee and her husband are perfectly right to worry about their property values wrt integration, and that it's only fair they put their property values above children of color getting decent educations in non-rotting school buildings. he also tried real hard to erase the integration issue entirely so it would be just a rezoning issue and not an icky desegregation issue that would make a tv host he likes look racist Condiv fucked around with this message at 09:47 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 09:44
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WJ is sympathetic of Bee and Jones' incredibly not racist anti-integration stance because he too is a wealthy New Yorker who would hate to see his district similarly rezoned.
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May 8, 2017 09:51
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The Kingfish posted:WJ is sympathetic of Bee and Jones' incredibly not racist anti-integration stance because he too is a wealthy New Yorker who would hate to see his district similarly rezoned. lol I live in Maryland
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May 8, 2017 13:08
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Owned again by my gift/curse of being 85% right about everything.
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May 8, 2017 13:48
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My sister-in-law is an upper-middle class white woman who is married to a retired diplomat. She and her husband raised a fair amount of money for the Clinton campaign and attended the election night event. At a family wedding this weekend I made a (fairly neutral) political joke. She laughed and said "The Democrats keep calling, and I told them to call me back when they have a strategy." We're winning. Keep up the good work!
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May 8, 2017 14:55
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The Kingfish posted:WJ is sympathetic of Bee and Jones' incredibly not racist anti-integration stance because he too is a wealthy New Yorker who would hate to see his district similarly rezoned. That story turned out to be pretty overblown. shrike82 posted:The white leftist faction tried and failed with Bernie least year. Interesting that you'd characterize it as the "white leftist" faction. Describe that faction a bit more, if you would.
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May 8, 2017 16:37
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Majorian posted:That story turned out to be pretty overblown. quote:[T]his proposed plan involved moving the school next to a housing project and adding a more diverse group of students to the school. . . He opposed a plan that would been a step towards integrating a well-to-do school. I'm not particularly interested in whatever residual effects that integration might have on wealthy locals.
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May 8, 2017 16:52
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Majorian posted:That story turned out to be pretty overblown. yeah no: quote:Several parents spoke out against the plan for a variety of reasons. One argued that the move would make the commute unbearable, another accused the city of playing “musical chairs” with their children’s education, while yet another said that the move would deprive children of the benefits of attending a school in their neighborhood, such as walking to school with friends. However, as this proposed plan involved moving the school next to a housing project and adding a more diverse group of students to the school, some critics characterized the plan’s opponents as classist or racist. sorry, but samantha bee's kids commute isn't excuse for blocking the integration of a heavily segregated high-performing school. it's shameful that snopes is trying to claim that the thinnest of excuses for racists to stand in the way of desegregation makes them suddenly definitely not racist at all. http://www.chalkbeat.org/posts/ny/2016/06/16/latest-upper-west-side-rezoning-battle-renews-debate-over-how-best-to-integrate-schools/ quote:This round, it was parents from P.S. 452 opposing a plan to move their school into a building 16 blocks south, where it would have more space and a new zone that could potentially include more low-income families. The school’s population is 74 percent white and Asian and 9 percent low-income, in a district that is 43 percent white and Asian and 48 percent poor. these are piss poor excuses for standing in the way of integration. stop giving them the benefit of the doubt when we're talking about the extremely well off standing in the way of children of color getting a good education in a high-performing school. if these people are not racist, they may as well be with them sticking up for institutional racism Condiv fucked around with this message at 17:03 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 17:00
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do we really have to have this argument again
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May 8, 2017 17:03
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hot take: allowing parents to maintain custody of their children is bad creche or bust
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May 8, 2017 17:05
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I think this sort of rationale runs into the problem where racism/classism/etc often literally can't be proved. In this particular situation, because there existed other potential reasons for a parent to protest this change, they can always claim that it was for totally-not-racist reasons. I think that, ultimately, if someone protests something that would help address issues like segregation or lack of diversity, their reason for doing so doesn't matter - the act is inherently racist, even if the person in question is worried about commute times or a drop in the value of their real estate. (edit: A good comparison is people voting for Donald Trump for reasons unrelated to racism. Even if they voted for him for economic reasons, the action is still inherently racist because it had the effect of enabling - or at least not preventing - racism.) That being said, I've been getting mixed messages over whether the change they were protesting would have resulted in increased diversity to the school their children attended. If it would have, their actions are racist and/or classist regardless of their stated intent. If not, then this seems like a non-issue I guess.
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May 8, 2017 17:09
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per that pdf Condiv posted earlier, the entire underlying system of school assignment is structured to cause segregation as it is based on an underlying segregated distribution of where people live. Trying to integrate by redrawing zone borders is a fool's errand
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May 8, 2017 17:14
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Ytlaya posted:I think this sort of rationale runs into the problem where racism/classism/etc often literally can't be proved. In this particular situation, because there existed other potential reasons for a parent to protest this change, they can always claim that it was for totally-not-racist reasons. problem is that none of the people against disputed its worth as a desegregation measure. in fact, they said desegregation is something that needs to happen, they just don't understand why they have to "shoulder the burden of school integration"
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May 8, 2017 17:15
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Condiv posted:problem is that none of the people against disputed its worth as a desegregation measure. in fact, they said desegregation is something that needs to happen, they just don't understand why they have to "shoulder the burden of school integration" Keep in mind this was the same Sam Bee who was praising Hillary for her work in going undercover to bust schools that weren't integrating. The hypocrisy is staggering.
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May 8, 2017 17:16
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:per that pdf Condiv posted earlier, the entire underlying system of school assignment is structured to cause segregation as it is based on an underlying segregated distribution of where people live. it's a half-measure that could work until the full-measure of fixing the racist school system is addressed. get children of color into a high-performing school as quick as possible so that they can reap some benefits instead of waiting 20+ years for a better solution to come along. but no, you'd rather let the segregated status-quo go on and let the rich people stay nice and comfy, and when they eventually feel like fixing the racism in the school system (they won't), children of color will get to attend good quality schools! thank you for defending the status quo of segregation once again btw wj. edit: i gotta say, for a pragmatic incrementalist you sure do believe in doing nothing until a perfect solution is worked out Condiv fucked around with this message at 17:22 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 17:19
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Condiv posted:it's a half-measure that could work until the full-measure of fixing the racist school system is addressed. get children of color into a high-performing school as quick as possible so that they can reap some benefits instead of waiting 20+ years for a better solution to come along. but no, you'd rather let the segregated status-quo go on and let the rich people stay nice and comfy, and when they eventually feel like fixing the racism in the school system (they won't), children of color will get to attend good quality schools! i never even said it's not gonna work to integrate the PS 191 kids, but the PS 452 kids are zoned in PS 87 now, not with where PS 452 moved to, so the relevant "ha ha gently caress samantha bee" thing which is the only reason we're discussing this in this thread happens not to really check out eta: like it "could" work but it doesn't address the underlying problem so I have my doubts that it will work
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May 8, 2017 17:35
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Raskolnikov38 posted:do we really have to have this argument again apparently the answer is: yes
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May 8, 2017 17:40
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let me be clear: my position is that samantha bee and jason jones should be deported back to canada so we don't have to discuss this ever again in this, hell thread jr.
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May 8, 2017 17:53
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Condiv posted:problem is that none of the people against disputed its worth as a desegregation measure. in fact, they said desegregation is something that needs to happen, they just don't understand why they have to "shoulder the burden of school integration" The article says that "some parents" expressed this view; it doesn't say that Jason Jones or Sam Bee were among them. The only expressed viewpoint we have from either of them on the issue is that the parents involved shouldn't talk to the press, because the local papers are mischaracterizing the matter. I think it's fair to criticize the both of them for opposing this, and I think Ytlaya is right in saying that this can be characterized as an inherently racist act. But you're inferring a little too much about their motives, IMO, and there's a lot more fertile ground for criticizing Bee, particularly regarding her "Clinton made no mistakes!" commentary. e: Which leads us back to the topic of this thread and away from this derail! Majorian fucked around with this message at 17:57 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 17:55
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Condiv posted:get children of color into a high-performing school as quick as possible so that they can reap some benefits instead of waiting 20+ years for a better solution to come along. As something vaguely related to this, I think one huge downside to incrementalism which I surprisingly do not see discussed often is the fact that there's a huge opportunity cost to having to waiting on positive social/economic change. Like, if we manage to fully address a particular problem 50 years down the line, that means millions of people will have gone through most of their lives without getting to benefit from that change. The longer it takes to make a change, the more time passes that millions have to suffer without that change. I feel like a big reason privileged liberals tend to prefer incrementalist approaches is that, to them, these things are just intellectual problems. Because they're not affected by these issues in the first place, it's easy for them to say "well, all that matters is that we solve the problem in the end." They aren't affected by the cost of not accomplishing those goals, so that cost doesn't factor into their calculations. Obviously many issues need to be addressed incrementally for a variety of reasons, so incrementalism has its place, but I think that many liberals who advocate for it aren't looking at things rationally because they aren't including this massive hidden (to them, anyways) cost.
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May 8, 2017 18:00
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