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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:i never even said it's not gonna work to integrate the PS 191 kids, but the PS 452 kids are zoned in PS 87 now, not with where PS 452 moved to, so the relevant "ha ha gently caress samantha bee" thing which is the only reason we're discussing this in this thread happens not to really check out oh? it's all ok cause they got moved to ps 87? let's look at what ps 87 is like: http://www.greatschools.org/new-york/new-york/2304-Ps-87-William-Sherman/details/#Students oh! another heavily segregated, well off school! good thing those definitely not racist parents resisted desegregation! by the way, desegregation efforts going through are important for this reason: quote:The rezoning debates have largely overshadowed calls for a “controlled choice” enrollment system that would eliminate the district’s zones and fill each school with a mix of students from different backgrounds. The resistance to rezoning just one or two schools has convinced some officials that the district is not ready for a large-scale zoning change. by letting the racists win and giving into the status quo, you help make sure an actual fix will never come to pass. so even though rezoning isn't a permanent solution, it is a way better solution than doing nothing and holding out for the perfect, cause that makes sure the better solution never comes (which is why new york is still one of the most segregated states in the nation wrt schooling long after the civil rights movement and landmark reintegration efforts) again, thanks for defending the status quo whiskeyjuvenille!
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May 8, 2017 18:01
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Ytlaya posted:As something vaguely related to this, I think one huge downside to incrementalism which I surprisingly do not see discussed often is the fact that there's a huge opportunity cost to having to waiting on positive social/economic change. Like, if we manage to fully address a particular problem 50 years down the line, that means millions of people will have gone through most of their lives without getting to benefit from that change. The longer it takes to make a change, the more time passes that millions have to suffer without that change. Exactly. That's part of the problem with the Dem reps celebrating the AHCA passing: sure, it's probably going to end up loving the GOP in the rear end in 2018, and that's awesome. But in between now and then, if this passes the Senate and becomes law, a lot of people are going to suffer and die needlessly. And that's A Bad Thing.
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May 8, 2017 18:03
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Majorian posted:The article says that "some parents" expressed this view; it doesn't say that Jason Jones or Sam Bee were among them. The only expressed viewpoint we have from either of them on the issue is that the parents involved shouldn't talk to the press, because the local papers are mischaracterizing the matter. I think it's fair to criticize the both of them for opposing this, and I think Ytlaya is right in saying that this can be characterized as an inherently racist act. But you're inferring a little too much about their motives, IMO, and there's a lot more fertile ground for criticizing Bee, particularly regarding her "Clinton made no mistakes!" commentary. yes, sam bee and jason jones conveniently did not provide us with a reason for why they are resisting desegregation. and since we have no explanation, i see no reason why i should assume their reasons are noble. i agree with ytayla, resisting desegregation is inherently racist. there is no imagineable excuse for why we shouldn't integrate schools that would outclass a child of color's need for us to deal with the institutional racism in schooling. and therefore, i cannot see any excuse for resisting integration as anything but a flimsy excuse for racism. especially from wealthy people complaining about the burden this places on them and their children.
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May 8, 2017 18:06
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shrike82 posted:It's a free country but leftists like CMC voting for Trump and Kilroy voting for Stein can and should be mocked.
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May 8, 2017 18:13
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Can we just rewind a little and go back to recognize "A spokesman for Pelosi, who makes a practice of ignoring her election opponents, had no comment" for a moment as both grammatically suspect and hilarious?
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May 8, 2017 18:19
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Kilroy posted:I didn't vote for Stein. You are also a leftist, singular. Some word in there seems to make the post not actually about you as an individual.
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May 8, 2017 18:20
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Nevvy Z posted:You are also a leftist, singular. Some word in there seems to make the post not actually about you as an individual.
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May 8, 2017 18:25
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Ytlaya posted:As something vaguely related to this, I think one huge downside to incrementalism which I surprisingly do not see discussed often is the fact that there's a huge opportunity cost to having to waiting on positive social/economic change. Like, if we manage to fully address a particular problem 50 years down the line, that means millions of people will have gone through most of their lives without getting to benefit from that change. The longer it takes to make a change, the more time passes that millions have to suffer without that change. There is an enormous cost to non-incrementalist changes that go poorly-- one that is orders of magnitude worse than incrementalism going wrong. The amount of times rapid change didn't end up hardcore loving the poor is not a large number. In fact it's hard to think of any. Meanwhile incrementalism has left us with a world where even the poor are massively better off today on an absolute measure than the rich were 200 hundred years ago by almost every objective metric.
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May 8, 2017 18:27
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tsa posted:There is an enormous cost to non-incrementalist changes that go poorly-- one that is orders of magnitude worse than incrementalism going wrong. The amount of times rapid change didn't end up hardcore loving the poor is not a large number. In fact it's hard to think of any. Meanwhile incrementalism has left us with a world where even the poor are massively better off today on an absolute measure than the rich were 200 hundred years ago by almost every objective metric.  the poor weren't against this, the rich were.
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May 8, 2017 18:28
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Majorian posted:Exactly. That's part of the problem with the Dem reps celebrating the AHCA passing: sure, it's probably going to end up loving the GOP in the rear end in 2018, and that's awesome. But in between now and then, if this passes the Senate and becomes law, a lot of people are going to suffer and die needlessly. And that's A Bad Thing. There is no conceivable way healthcare will change in the US expect for incrementally. We don't have the "luxury" of being europe post wwII -- the example to look to is Canada where the process took decades.
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May 8, 2017 18:29
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Basically: incrementalism owns!! It's really good  Let's ask Venezuela how the alternatives are doing... Yikes, looks like socialism aint doing so hot!!
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May 8, 2017 18:31
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Rodatose posted:okay that's all good but i was saying that "purity tests" is a problematic dismissal by liberals towards leftists in the same way that conservatives use similar terms like PC or especially virtue signaling (virtue, purity, same thing basically) to dismiss liberal/leftist concerns Stop misusing the word "problematic".
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May 8, 2017 18:32
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tsa posted:Basically: incrementalism owns!! It's really good integrating schools isn't necessarily socialist (i mean last i checked) guess centrists are giving up on social justice too
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May 8, 2017 18:33
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Like no joke, incrementalism sounds like a raw deal until you realize what the alternative is: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3738387&pagenumber=134 It's not very good!!! Slow and steady wins the race, as they say.
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May 8, 2017 18:35
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Condiv posted:integrating schools isn't necessarily socialist (i mean last i checked) Race mixing is communism, though, and guess what happens when the races go to high school together?
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May 8, 2017 18:35
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tsa posted:Like no joke, incrementalism sounds like a raw deal until you realize what the alternative is: America is not Venezuela. Incrementalism is a loving awful philosophy.
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May 8, 2017 18:37
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tsa posted:There is no conceivable way healthcare will change in the US expect for incrementally. We don't have the "luxury" of being europe post wwII -- the example to look to is Canada where the process took decades. The fact that positive change is only likely to take place in increments, does not mean that the Democrats should be pushing for half-measures. You don't enter negotiations signaling that you're willing to compromise from the get-go. You highball your demands: put single payer in your party platform, push it in Congress once you've won a majority, and let the GOP expend time, energy, and resources whittling you down to a strong public option with expansions to Medicare and Medicaid. The Clintonista strategy of entering negotiations saying, "Okay, here's something we hope YOU'LL like; please agree with it and don't argue it down even further.  " is really, really ineffective, and it's amazing that I still have to explain that.
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May 8, 2017 18:43
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Condiv posted:
we have no idea what parents in Amsterdam Towers thought about this
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May 8, 2017 18:51
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tsa posted:Basically: incrementalism owns!! It's really good Mmmm yes, Venezuela is clearly the best example of how social democracy works. Fly away, little troll. (it is a tsa joke)
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May 8, 2017 18:56
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tsa posted:There is an enormous cost to non-incrementalist changes that go poorly-- one that is orders of magnitude worse than incrementalism going wrong. The amount of times rapid change didn't end up hardcore loving the poor is not a large number. In fact it's hard to think of any. Meanwhile incrementalism has left us with a world where even the poor are massively better off today on an absolute measure than the rich were 200 hundred years ago by almost every objective metric. I too remember how e.g.the British got super worse off post WW2 when Attlee nationalized a fifth of the economy including almost the entire healthcare sector in a couple of years. Top tip: Actually existing Incrementalism isn't about slow and steady improvement, it's about having a handy excuse when people start wondering why you only ever go for half measures.
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May 8, 2017 18:56
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:we have no idea what parents in Amsterdam Towers thought about this seems to me they were in favor: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/04/the-privilege-of-school-choice quote:After the video ended, the school’s principal, Lauren Keville, introduced herself. Keville is 39 years old and has curly brown hair that falls past her shoulders. When speaking to adult audiences, she has a polite, professional air. With children, she is effusive, complimenting their outfits in the hallway and crouching beside their desks to talk face-to-face. When she was hired to take over P.S. 191 in 2014 she inherited its defining paradox: It is surrounded by wealth but weighed down by poverty. Luxury apartment towers with sweeping views of the Hudson River soar above the school, and a private tennis court, inaccessible to its students, sits beside it. The tower-dwellers don’t send their children to 191. Instead, most of its students come from the Amsterdam Houses, a low-income project across the street. Last year, just over 86 percent of the school’s students were black or Hispanic, and 82 percent were poor. (At P.S. 199, 15 percent of students were black or Hispanic, and 7 percent were poor.) The zone change offered 191 a reprieve from its overwhelming poverty—but only if the rezoned parents gave it a chance. too bad racists like sam bee fight integration. too bad you defend them
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May 8, 2017 19:05
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tsa posted:There is no conceivable way healthcare will change in the US expect for incrementally. We don't have the "luxury" of being europe post wwII -- the example to look to is Canada where the process took decades. It's not like things are either incrementalist or not incrementalist; it's a sliding scale of sorts. The ACA was considerably less incrementalist than many other possible changes to healthcare. This is a big reason Republicans have been having trouble figuring out how to remove it; it makes a big enough impact that it's difficult to remove without many people noticing. If individual elements of the ACA had been incrementally passed over the years, it would be easier for the GOP to roll them back. Either way, I'm certainly not saying less incrementalist approaches are always better. But there's a lot of value to making positive changes that are big enough they're difficult to undo and don't result in millions of people having to continue to suffer for decades. I definitely think that liberal support of this approach largely stems from the aforementioned way they view political issues as intellectual problems to solve (since they usually aren't personally affected by them). To them, the question is just "How do I ultimately fix X problem?", and they consider the problem solved as long as that solution can be achieved in the future. But when considering the pros/cons of an idea, change taking time is a very important con that needs to be factored in. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 19:12 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 19:09
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quote:Nine blocks away, P.S. 199 faced a different problem. The school, which has won a National Blue Ribbon Award, has such pull among affluent parents that many shop for homes within its boundaries. (During the rezoning process, an ad for a $2.7 million apartment near the school reassured potential buyers that it was still zoned for 199.) Once they’re in, parents invest heavily in the school. “I think a piece of it is we all know if we didn’t have this amazing school that we’d be sending our kids to private school or leaving the city,” said Nadine Gerber, whose daughter is in the fifth grade at 199. The parent-teacher association amassed $777,000 last year. (P.S. 191’s PTA raised $27,000.) The group has funded class trips, theater workshops, recess monitors, a science teacher, and student laptops, according to PTA documents. But 199’s abundant resources have led to a shortage of seats. Even with the building filled above capacity, nearly 100 would-be kindergarteners in the school’s zone had to be placed on a waitlist in 2015. So, that fall, the city proposed shifting some families in 199’s zone to its under-enrolled neighbor, P.S. 191. yep, it's definitely good that these parents were against integration and are allowed to have lily-white enclaves
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May 8, 2017 19:11
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quote:Racial anxieties coursed through the debate, often just below the surface. White and Asian parents who opposed the rezoning often began their public comments by praising diversity and stating that race played no part in their resistance to 191. (In surveys, it’s common for whites to downplay the importance of race in choosing schools, even as studies find it’s a top consideration in their actual decision-making.) Yet outside the hearings, racially tinged rumors about 191 circulated among some parents. A woman whose child attends a predominantly white school in the area and asked not to be named said she’d been told that some 191 students serve as drug mules for local dealers; another woman who asked not to be named told me she’d heard that an older 191 student had pulled a knife on a pre-kindergartener. (The school’s head pre-k teacher at the time strenuously denied that any such incident occurred.) Among parents of color, it seemed undeniable that bias accounted for at least some of the opposition. “They say it’s about rezoning,” a black woman who lives the Amsterdam Houses and whose child attends 199 said at one of the October hearings, “but what they’re worried about is having to integrate with public-housing minority kids.” "these people aren't racist cause they found an excuse that makes them not racist" - snopes,whiskeyjuvenile
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May 8, 2017 19:14
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weird, not a single quote from a PS 191 parent (and PS 191 had above-average favorability among students and parents)
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May 8, 2017 19:18
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:weird, not a single quote from a PS 191 parent (and PS 191 had above-average favorability among students and parents) lol you wanted to know how people from amsterdam houses felt about it also, the ps 191 principle was well in favor and I doubt the parents of 191, who are mostly poor and PoC would mind a bunch of wealthy students and parents coming in and bringing in their funds to their school. oh wait no they want their school to keep receiving "persistently dangerous" labels seriously WJ, stop carrying water for segregation edit: quote:Keville recognized many of the parents. Several had pleaded with officials at the hearings not to reassign them to her school. One of the moms had dissolved into tears explaining that the city had alienated the very parents it hoped would “turn around” 191. Now, Keville had to assure them that the school wasn’t what they imagined. Indeed, it had shed its “persistently dangerous” label in the past year, and nearly doubled its pass rate on the state English exams from 11 to 21 percent (though its math scores dipped). “It’s really important to me and our school community that you feel excited about sending your children to school here,” she told the parents. Most stared back, stone-faced. Condiv fucked around with this message at 19:29 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 19:25
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Condiv posted:"these people aren't racist cause they found an excuse that makes them not racist" - snopes,whiskeyjuvenile I agree with your overall point, but that's not what Snopes said. Come on, dude.
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May 8, 2017 19:30
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Majorian posted:I agree with your overall point, but that's not what Snopes said. Come on, dude. quote:Several parents spoke out against the plan for a variety of reasons. One argued that the move would make the commute unbearable, another accused the city of playing “musical chairs” with their children’s education, while yet another said that the move would deprive children of the benefits of attending a school in their neighborhood, such as walking to school with friends. However, as this proposed plan involved moving the school next to a housing project and adding a more diverse group of students to the school, some critics characterized the plan’s opponents as classist or racist. they are basically saying that since he could claim one of these covers (not that he did, he actually refused to defend his decision) it's false to say that he's fighting integration ("keeping black kids out of his children's school").
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May 8, 2017 19:36
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I'm really glad snopes.com is checking the facts and making sure we know that just because someone opposes integration it doesn't necessarily mean they are racist. Really fighting the good fight.
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May 8, 2017 19:38
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Parents that oppose integrating a school with an ostensibly non-racist rationale--dirty racists, should be liquidated. Voters that support Trump with an ostensibly non-racist rationale--economically anxious, should be empathized with and pandered to. FWIW I say liquidate both.
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May 8, 2017 20:05
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JeffersonClay posted:Voters that support Trump with an ostensibly non-racist rationale So does that include Hillary Clinton and her campaign? Considering they pushed for Trump during the primary season as hard as possible?
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May 8, 2017 20:10
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JeffersonClay posted:Parents that oppose integrating a school with an ostensibly non-racist rationale--dirty racists, should be liquidated. People like you ensured that Obama supporters would defect into the latter group.
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May 8, 2017 20:11
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JeffersonClay posted:Parents that oppose integrating a school with an ostensibly non-racist rationale--dirty racists, should be liquidated. lol what's the non-racist rationale for leaving 191 segregated as gently caress? edit: is it this one? quote:If Chu wanted to build on the strengths of the existing school and its families, some prospective parents seemed to view those as obstacles to overcome. After a tour in January, a man in a navy-blue sweater with his hair combed neatly to the side asked Keville, “What is your expectation as far as how the student population and the teacher population may change as far as what’s in here today and what will be here in September?” A rezoned mother lamented how even if a cohort of higher-income families enrolled in 191’s kindergarten, any money they donated would be spread throughout the school—not just among their children’s classrooms. “I wish there had been an organically grown school alongside the current school,” she told me. Condiv fucked around with this message at 20:18 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 20:15
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Majorian posted:People like you ensured that Obama supporters would defect into the latter group. Don't victim blame.
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May 8, 2017 20:15
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quote:71-year-old employment attorney Oh good a political neophyte and old as gently caress. Yeah I sure think he'll take Nancy loving Pelosi. uhhuh
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May 8, 2017 20:16
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Nevvy Z posted:Don't victim blame. See that's why I have empathy for Trump voters!
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May 8, 2017 20:18
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Nevvy Z posted:Don't victim blame. In this case the victim is...? SSNeoman posted:Oh good a political neophyte and old as gently caress. Yeah I sure think he'll take Nancy loving Pelosi. uhhuh If he has no chance, there's no harm in him trying to primary her. If he does have a chance, that suggests there's a real problem with Pelosi, as far as her (overwhelmingly Democratic) constituents are concerned.
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May 8, 2017 20:18
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Majorian posted:In this case the victim is...? Obviously poor Abuela and her fanclub who were denied the votes rightfully owed to them.
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May 8, 2017 20:21
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Nevvy Z posted:You are also a leftist, singular. Some word in there seems to make the post not actually about you as an individual.
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May 8, 2017 20:27
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NewForumSoftware posted:So does that include Hillary Clinton and her campaign? Considering they pushed for Trump during the primary season as hard as possible? They didn't vote for him, unlike some thread regulars. Majorian posted:People like you ensured that Obama supporters would defect into the latter group. Lol I was mocking your reflexive need to excuse Trump voters' racism and you just double down. Condiv posted:lol what's the non-racist rationale for leaving 191 segregated as gently caress? The ones you posted 40 minutes ago? "But Hillary!", "Trump voters aren't racists", and "I can't remember what I just posted" all in a row? Thread hat trick.
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May 8, 2017 20:36
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