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evenworse username posted:I thought the deal was that this is the time remnant he created to help stop Zoom, that originally died but now survived due to Flashpoint. They never said that and from the dialogue at the beginning of the episode they make it clear that he has yet to be created.
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May 11, 2017 04:17
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Has Barry considered just swearing to never use time remnants or would that be too easy a solution (and too hard on the writers when they need a source of cheap "Barry's gonna' die!" drama)?
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May 11, 2017 04:25
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I actually liked this episode and most of season 3, but my favorite part is that the DA's entire case against Heatmonger hinged on Barry's testimony. They couldn't find anything else to build a case against the guy widely known as Heatmonger to the general public, and when the whole thing falls through and he's released less than 24 hours later he immediately burns down an office building. No wonder this whole city goes to poo poo by 2024.
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May 11, 2017 06:22
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I still love this show but gods drat it's got some of the stupidest people imaginable in the cast
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May 11, 2017 06:34
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Wally: We're brothers! (Bart adorably checks his hand for melanin) Wally: Oh and Iris, that girl you're engaged to? She's my sister. Bart: Wait... I still don't get how Flashpoint is supposed to have made Barry turn into Savitar. Did the Speedforce dudes just decide to stop killing off time remnants after Barry's time-fuckery? Isn't that their main job? teamcharlie fucked around with this message at 08:19 on May 11, 2017 |
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May 11, 2017 08:15
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teamcharlie posted:Wally: We're brothers! Well, the speedforce... poo poo. Ok, so the When the Black Flash.... gently caress. So Barry used a time remnant to... fight , poo poo. Uhhhh.... gently caress it!!!   8one6, it's me, you, from the future! We can travel through time? You need to not try to explain how the Flash s3 works. You'll just look dumb. Ok, but wouldn't you coming back to warn yourself about not posting this prevent the need for you coming back. No time to explain! Oh good, everything is fine no...quote:
Wait, how does that...quote:
quote:
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May 11, 2017 08:33
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It's me, the poo poo post, I'm a post remnant!
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I both liked and disliked that episode. Yeah, it was pretty fun, but at this stage of the season and with everything at stake, it felt really off, tonally speaking. I suppose there is something to be said for breaking up the seriousness with a bit of humour, but you can do that without a whole episode. I just think it would have been a better episode mid-season. Also yeah I know speedforce.gif but it made zero sense that Barry dying wouldn't stop him from becoming Savitar, but they can mind-wipe Barry and that affects him. One thing which occurred to me was the conversation between Barry and Iris at the end, where Barry talks about needing to use his tragic past to make him more heroic. I wonder if that's going to be the key to stopping Savitar. The Speed Force Bazooka (which is a genius name btw) seems a bit too obvious at this point. teamcharlie posted:I still don't get how Flashpoint is supposed to have made Barry turn into Savitar. Did the Speedforce dudes just decide to stop killing off time remnants after Barry's time-fuckery? Isn't that their main job?
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May 11, 2017 09:48
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irlZaphod posted:Also yeah I know speedforce.gif but it made zero sense that Barry dying wouldn't stop him from becoming Savitar, but they can mind-wipe Barry and that affects him.
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May 11, 2017 13:45
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I thought the episode was one of the best of the season. The only way it could have been better is if Savitar forgot all the bad stuff that happened to him and became happy too. Or if team Flash got some brains and decided to defeat Savitar while Bart was still clueless and restoring Barry's memory afterwards.
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May 11, 2017 14:10
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Wait , why does Savitar want to kill Iris? How is he a time remnant? None of this makes any sense and it is all really really really dumb. Who made Savitars's suit? Just like stop that person.
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May 11, 2017 16:41
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It makes perfect sense. Iris has to die because Savitar is a time remnant Barry creates to fight Savitar because he killed Iris.
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May 11, 2017 16:51
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So when on this timeline does Savitar get thrown in the speedforce jail? Is it after he kills Iris? If so, and everybody knows about the loop at that point, why did they even bother doing that?
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May 11, 2017 16:54
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Yeah it's 8 years from now, or possibly 7 because the Flash writers can't count. At this point it's probably best to just not think about the plot holes.  
irlZaphod fucked around with this message at 17:12 on May 11, 2017 |
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May 11, 2017 17:04
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I'm along for the ride and enjoy it fine, I just wonder how you can write such a nonsensical plot. It really doesn't make sense. It's possible I'm just too dense, but there's speedforce.gif and there's this - where the whole story, the whole plot, just doesn't make any sense. The main villain, the whole point of the season, doesn't stand up to any thought or scrutiny. I don't understand why I still want to watch. And I can't understand how something like this gets out of the writers room. There's silly like Negan's immortality on TWD but I can't think of something else I've watched that is just so contradictory and nonsensical as a plot.
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May 11, 2017 17:11
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OK, this makes zero sense. Our Savitar was locked in the Speed Force, right? They established that, the current present day Savitar broke out of the Speed Force prison. An in the future, Barry finally managed to lock Savitar in the Speed Force prison after Svaitar killed Iris, Joe, and Wally. So if Savitar was a time remnant created to fight the original Savitar, what the gently caress is going on? That means there were two Savitars, right? The first Savitar that got thrown into prison, and then the time remnant Barry created to kill Savitar, who later became Savitar, but broke out of prison. Why was the time remnant imprisoned, if the first Savitar was the guy who did all the killing? And what happened to the first Savitar?
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May 11, 2017 17:24
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Guy Goodbody posted:OK, this makes zero sense. Our Savitar was locked in the Speed Force, right? They established that, the current present day Savitar broke out of the Speed Force prison. An in the future, Barry finally managed to lock Savitar in the Speed Force prison after Svaitar killed Iris, Joe, and Wally. Psychepath posted:
Basically, it's a paradox. Barry created a time remnant to help defeat Savitar, and that time remnant ultimately becomes Savitar.
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May 11, 2017 17:30
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irlZaphod posted:Basically, it's a paradox. Barry created a time remnant to help defeat Savitar, and that time remnant ultimately becomes Savitar. No, it's not a closed loop, there's a massive gaping break in the loop. What happened to the first Savitar? If they had actually defeated Savitar, and then the leftover time remnant went crazy, stole the Savitar armor, and went back in time to restart the loop, then that would be a closed loop. But that's not what they said. Future Barry said he couldn't defeat Savitar. If what he meant by that was he actually could defeat Savitar, there was no Savitar for awhile, but then everybody was such a huge douchebag to the time remnant that he went crazy and decided to be Savitar to get back at them, then that's bullshit. That's an absurd level of just flat out lying to the audience.
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May 11, 2017 17:36
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I take it back, even that doesn't make sense, because which Savitar killed everybody? If the first Savitar killed Iris Joe, and Wally, then why the gently caress was the time remnant thrown in speed jail? And if the time remnant killed them, then why would he go back in time to become a Savitar that failed in order to create a new time remnant that would go through the whole thing over again? Especially when he'd already had his revenge in the future?
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May 11, 2017 17:45
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There's only 1 Savitar.
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May 11, 2017 18:06
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There is no "first" Savitar. It was always the time remnant created to fight Savitar. That's what a closed time loop is. It's Terminator.
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May 11, 2017 18:08
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Someone post the clip from the Star Trek TNG finale where Picard in his jammies explains a time paradox to Riker. IT'S JUST LIKE THE CHICKEN AND THE EGG, WILL! THE CHICKEN AND THE EGG!
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May 11, 2017 18:11
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Phylodox posted:There is no "first" Savitar. It was always the time remnant created to fight Savitar. That's what a closed time loop is. It's Terminator. No! Because there were two Savitars! The Savitar that the Time Remnant fought, and the Time Remnant. If Barry didn't actually kill Savitar at some point, then there are two Savitars in the future, and if Barry did kill Savitar, then the entire episode in the future where everybody acted like Savitar was never defeated was complete bullshit. It's not like Terminator at all, because Terminator made sense.
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May 11, 2017 18:21
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Savitar has to do something to make Barry create time remnants for me to buy the closed loop argument. Like set fire to every building in town at the same time. Or Barry needs to create a bunch of remnants of himself to fire up the Speed Force Bazooka or whatever Otherwise it's not like Terminator because it's not like John Connor or Sarah went on to create Skynet on their own WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 18:32 on May 11, 2017 |
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May 11, 2017 18:24
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It's like Terminator because John Connor sent Reese back from the future to protect his mother and ensure his conception. John was only conceived because he sent Reese back in time, but if that's the case then how was he ever conceived?
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May 11, 2017 18:27
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irlZaphod posted:It's like Terminator because John Connor sent Reese back from the future to protect his mother and ensure his conception. John was only conceived because he sent Reese back in time, but if that's the case then how was he ever conceived? But there was no way for them to break the loop since they aren't involved in the creation of Skynet or Judgement Day. Barry is told "hey in the future you make the thing that becomes me" so he literally knows how to break the loop Not to mention the only way Terminator makes sense is if you have branching/parallel timelines and not a single one. And that's basically TSCC anyway. WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 18:31 on May 11, 2017 |
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May 11, 2017 18:28
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flash point dot j peg
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May 11, 2017 18:34
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WhyteRyce posted:But there was no way for them to break the loop since they aren't involved in the creation of Skynet or Judgement Day. Barry is told "hey in the future you make the thing that becomes me" so he literally knows how to break the loop
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May 11, 2017 18:38
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so this season's gonna end on a cliffhanger introducing Bart, right
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May 11, 2017 18:41
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irlZaphod posted:OK but that's not the it's "like" Terminator. It's analogous in terms of John's conception, nothing to do with Skynet or robots. We're talking an action in the future having an effect on something in the past. You could easily argue that Kyle wasn't the original father. My favorite explanation is that John's dad is some filthy trucker that Sarah met at the diner and John grew up to be a big manly man's man that could crush robots with his bare hands. Then Kyle came back and messed everything up. John is now a whiny little brat but is super well trained and has advanced knowledge about how to take them down.
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May 11, 2017 18:42
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irlZaphod posted:OK but that's not the it's "like" Terminator. It's analogous in terms of John's conception, nothing to do with Skynet or robots. We're talking an action in the future having an effect on something in the past. Yes, we all understand the concept of a time loop. Here's the problem with saying what's going on in the Flash is a timeloop When did the siwtchover take place? Savitar existed. Barry created a time remnant to fight Savitar. When did the time remnant takeover being Savitar from the Savitar that already existed when he was created, and what happened to that existing Savitar? There is no way to answer that question in a way that makes sense
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May 11, 2017 18:52
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There's nothing in Terminator that says that it's anything but a closed loop without start or end, simply existing as it always was; anything else is just fan theory and isn't borne out by the movie. Same with Savitar. Savitar always just exists. It's important to note that Savitar's appearance on the show isn't chronological. Savitar first shows up as a projection from the version that's trapped in the Speed Force. That Savitar is from further on in the timeline. Wally lets him out and now he's there physically but due to "gently caress you speed force" mechanics came out in our "present", his past. He goes on to kill Iris in order to cause Barry enough emotional trauma to create a speed remnant that goes batty and becomes Savitar; four years later Barry traps him in the speed force. We ultimately don't know what happens to the Savitar we're following right now who is at the end of his personal timeline. He doesn't become the time remnant that then becomes Savitar, so presumably there's an endpoint for him we haven't seen yet. Technically he should already know his future if Barry and team are the ones that defeat him, though. The bit about Barry just killing himself (or not making a time remnant) NOT breaking the cycle seems absurd but, as pointed out with Thawne, it isn't that cut and dried because "gently caress you speed force AND time travel". It's not as much of a stretch in logic as a bunch of other poo poo on the show. No idea how they're going to resolve this. All season they've been going "we need to change the future gently caress nothing we do actually changes the future"; Savitar says that simply killing himself won't stop it either. If the answer is "Barry thinks they can't change the future and then he goes faster and does change the future" it's going to be poo poo. Given how the show has gone I'm still expecting them to go this route and just ignore everything they said about it not being possible, but it'd be nice if there was something completely lateral and out of the blue that fixed it. Despite it all, I still think this might be the strongest season. S1 was carried by Stab-Happy-Wells a lot, but S3 is pretty decent on its own.
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May 11, 2017 18:55
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Mortanis posted:There's nothing in Terminator that says that it's anything but a closed loop without start or end, simply existing as it always was; anything else is just fan theory and isn't borne out by the movie. If you are talking the first movie and only the first movie yes. Literally every other movie and the show mess things around Basically that's the only way time travel works. Talk about how it works as little as possible
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May 11, 2017 18:58
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If it's a time loop they need to show it happening the same a million times and the final episode is tweaking time just enough to not make it exist. I guess if they kill Savitar like every other evil speedster we won't have Kid Flash anymore.
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May 11, 2017 19:03
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They should have had Barry create the time remnants when he had amnesia and didn't know how to control his powers. That would have taken care of all explanations and we'd get a filler episode of a bunch of Barrys all hanging out.
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May 11, 2017 19:34
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Guy Goodbody posted:Yes, we all understand the concept of a time loop. Here's the problem with saying what's going on in the Flash is a timeloop Barry creates Time Remnants to fight Savitar -> Savitar is defeated and a Time Remnant remains -> Time Remnant becomes Savitar and gets trapped in the Speed Force -> Events of S3, Iris Dies -> repeat.
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May 11, 2017 20:35
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I stopped watching the show 19 episodes ago and after reading spoilers and the last few pages I stand by that decision. I mean, they seriously did another evil speedster with a secret identity and convoluted back story that somehow makes less sense than Zoom? How is that possible?
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May 11, 2017 20:41
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the only good thing barry allen ever did was run so god damned fast he died e: true of both the show and the comics
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May 11, 2017 20:43
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Xelkelvos posted:Barry creates Time Remnants to fight Savitar -> Savitar is defeated and a Time Remnant remains -> Time Remnant becomes Savitar and gets trapped in the Speed Force -> Events of S3, Iris Dies -> repeat. OK, but as I said, that makes everyone in the future's refusal to tell Barry that absolutely insane. And it leaves the question of when did Iris et al. die, because there's no way to answer that that doesn't gently caress up character motivations pretty bad
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May 11, 2017 20:46
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Guy Goodbody posted:Yes, we all understand the concept of a time loop. Obviously not because you keep asking where it starts.
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May 11, 2017 20:48
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Guy Goodbody posted:OK, but as I said, that makes everyone in the future's refusal to tell Barry that absolutely insane. The nature of the Time Remnant is the big missing piece. We don't know. It could be a plot hole (possible) or no one actually remembers of knew about the Time Remnant until more than 8 years after Iris dies.
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May 11, 2017 20:55
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