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forkboy84 posted:Between this and your yells of antisemitism it has to be said that your attempts at gotchas are pisspoor. I realize sideshows are immoral but I can't help but gawp at the occasional political freak that wanders in. It's one of my few vices.
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May 15, 2017 01:47
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Evil_Urna posted:Various socioeconomic and cultural factors. I never said that blacks did not get a raw deal in America from time to time. poo poo is not all roses and teacups here when it comes to the law. Things are getting better, just a little too slowly. Once we get of some of the more stupid drug laws it will fix a lot of our prison problems. But to be fair, if weed is illegal where you live, and you have already been in the system, maybe not break the law? Its always an option. Have you paused to consider why they don't do that? Or why failing to do that might not be an adequate protection?
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May 15, 2017 01:49
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Evil_Urna posted:Various socioeconomic and cultural factors. You know that's not an answer, right? Or rather it's vague enough to be an answer to every question ever posed.
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May 15, 2017 01:51
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jabby posted:You know that's not an answer, right? Or rather it's vague enough to be an answer to every question ever posed. It is literally the reason people go to prison. In fact I would wager that the phrase "socioeconomic factors" was first used to describe the reasons people went to prison.
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May 15, 2017 01:52
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Evil_Urna posted:It is literally the reason people go to prison. In fact I would wager that the phrase "socioeconomic factors" was first used to describe the reasons people went to prison. That you acknowledge your answer to be tautological doesn't make it less so.
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May 15, 2017 02:04
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Evil_Urna posted:It is literally the reason people go to prison. In fact I would wager that the phrase "socioeconomic factors" was first used to describe the reasons people went to prison. You were asked why society is the way it is, and you responded with a phrase that means 'factors relating to society and the economy'. If you really try you can probably see how that's not an answer.
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May 15, 2017 02:07
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jabby posted:You were asked why society is the way it is, and you responded with a phrase that means 'factors relating to society and the economy'. If you really try you can probably see how that's not an answer. That would be an ecumenical matter.
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May 15, 2017 02:09
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OwlFancier posted:That you acknowledge your answer to be tautological doesn't make it less so. Ok I will spell it out a bit then. Discounting people that are just monsters like serial killers and what not, and crimes of passion, people tend to end up in prison because their violations of law and decency are because of poverty. They turn to criminal acts to make a living, this is abhorrent. Not just because it is violation the laws of the state, which was determined in this thread earlier to be the greatest construction of mankind, but because they were not given a chance to make a go of it legally. The loss of manufacturing and other real work has caused an uptick in this specific area of crime. I firmly believe that the majority of people in prison would be good and productive citizens if they actually had the chance to make a good wage in a job that actually created something, not just the service sector or riding the dole because there is just no work out there anymore.
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May 15, 2017 02:11
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Evil_Urna posted:Ok I will spell it out a bit then. Discounting people that are just monsters like serial killers and what not, and crimes of passion, people tend to end up in prison because their violations of law and decency are because of poverty. They turn to criminal acts to make a living, this is abhorrent. Not just because it is violation the laws of the state, which was determined in this thread earlier to be the greatest construction of mankind, but because they were not given a chance to make a go of it legally. So you acknowledge that the large majority of people are in prison because they weren't given the chance to succeed by society. You also acknowledge the prison population is disproportionately black. But you don't see any problem with using a large group of black people, who by your own admission were not given the same chances to succeed as their white counterparts, as forced labour.
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May 15, 2017 02:16
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Is it worth debating hakimashou on the benefits of NATO when he wishes that Russia had been turned into an irradiated wasteland 60 years ago
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May 15, 2017 02:20
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jabby posted:So you acknowledge that the large majority of people are in prison because they weren't given the chance to succeed by society. They still broke the law, they still need to pay a debt to society. Yes, we need to do more to offer real opportunity to disadvantaged communities. But that does not excuse law breaking. Society breaks down when we do not punish those who break the laws. It breeds resentment and leads down a path strewn with bodies. Namtab posted:Is it worth debating hakimashou on the benefits of NATO when he wishes that Russia had been turned into an irradiated wasteland 60 years ago Yes. He is extremely knowledgeable on the topic it appears. And this is a debate forum.
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May 15, 2017 02:20
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Evil_Urna posted:They still broke the law, they still need to pay a debt to society. Yes, we need to do more to offer real opportunity to disadvantaged communities. But that does not excuse law breaking. Society breaks down when we do not punish those who break the laws. It breeds resentment and leads down a path strewn with bodies. So, society fails people, which means they need to pay a debt to society... If I steal something from you do you expect to be required to pay me for the privilege of having been robbed? What exactly do people who society has driven to crime, owe society?
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May 15, 2017 02:21
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OwlFancier posted:So, society fails people, which means they need to pay a debt to society... Society did not give them everything they needed per say, but they also did not put the gun in their hand, or the drugs. That was a conscious choice. We have free will, and are not bound by powers outside of our control. I did not expect to see Calvinists ITT.
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May 15, 2017 02:23
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Evil_Urna posted:Society did not give them everything they needed per say, but they also did not put the gun in their hand, or the drugs. That was a conscious choice. We have free will, and are not bound by powers outside of our control. I did not expect to see Calvinists ITT. drat I had my money on the genetic inferiority but it turns out it was "personal responsibility" after all.
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May 15, 2017 02:24
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Evil_Urna posted:Yes. He is extremely knowledgeable on the topic it appears. And this is a debate forum. What's it like defending gun freedoms in a country with multiple school shootings per annum?
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May 15, 2017 02:25
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OwlFancier posted:drat I had my money on the genetic inferiority but it turns out it was "personal responsibility" after all. Are you really coming out against personal responsibility?
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May 15, 2017 02:25
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Evil_Urna posted:Are you really coming out against personal responsibility? The thread is full of communists, what on earth makes you think that I would not regard "personal responsibility" as a loving idiotic solution to a systemic societal problem seized upon by people who are either too stupid or too malicious to want to do anything substantial to fix it?
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May 15, 2017 02:26
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Namtab posted:What's it like defending gun freedoms in a country with multiple school shootings per annum? We are a country with a massive mental health care crisis being masqueraded as a gun problem. Banning guns has other advantages politically, the spending needed to help the mentally ill in the US would be huge and no one would want to spend it. It is much easier for both sides of the aisle to ignore it and blame guns.
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May 15, 2017 02:28
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Evil_Urna posted:Are you really coming out against personal responsibility? Maybe personal responsibility is harder in a country where the cards are stacked against you for the colour of your skin and slavery is still technically constitutional
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May 15, 2017 02:28
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OwlFancier posted:The thread is full of communists, what on earth makes you think that I would not regard "personal responsibility" as a loving idiotic solution to a systemic societal problem seized upon by people who are either too stupid or too malicious to want to do anything substantial to fix it? Well I did not want to say it as it is a bit of a personal attack, but yea I would expect a communist to not want to be held responsible for their actions. What did the Iron Lady say about it? “The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money."
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May 15, 2017 02:30
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Evil_Urna posted:We are a country with a massive mental health care crisis being masqueraded as a gun problem. Banning guns has other advantages politically, the spending needed to help the mentally ill in the US would be huge and no one would want to spend it. It is much easier for both sides of the aisle to ignore it and blame guns. I feel that the problem would improve if maybe you had less guns, or no guns.
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May 15, 2017 02:30
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Evil_Urna posted:Well I did not want to say it as it is a bit of a personal attack, but yea I would expect a communist to not want to be held responsible for their actions. What did the Iron Lady say about it? “The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money." Which suggests you have absolutely no understanding of communism. loving lol at quoting thatcher.
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May 15, 2017 02:32
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Communism = socialism = Marxism qed
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May 15, 2017 02:32
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hot take time: a look into English politics twenty years down the road
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May 15, 2017 02:35
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Some might say that the population at large being raised with the idea that it is not only morally permissible but preferred to be constantly armed and prepared to murder your fellow man might be a bit of a mental health problem in and of itself. Like me, I might say that. I'm saying it right now. Being obsessed with guns is poo poo.
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May 15, 2017 02:38
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OwlFancier posted:I realize sideshows are immoral but I can't help but gawp at the occasional political freak that wanders in. It's one of my few vices. Its not occasional and they don't wander in dude.
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May 15, 2017 02:38
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OwlFancier posted:
Whats wrong with quoting someone who was objectively the greatest post war Prime Minister the UK had?
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May 15, 2017 02:39
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Evil_Urna posted:Well I did not want to say it as it is a bit of a personal attack, but yea I would expect a communist to not want to be held responsible for their actions. What did the Iron Lady say about it? “The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money." What rock did you crawl from under? Evil_Urna posted:Whats wrong with quoting someone who was objectively the greatest post war Prime Minister the UK had? Ah. You played that hand far too soon.
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May 15, 2017 02:40
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The US fought the bloodiest war in its history, the war in which more Americans died than in all the subsequent wars together, including the two big ones where we came to Europe's salvation, to end slavery. Slavery was our original sin, but we expiated it with vast quantities of our own blood.
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May 15, 2017 02:40
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Evil_Urna posted:Whats wrong with quoting someone who was objectively the greatest post war Prime Minister the UK had? Ok now you're trying too hard. Can we brexit from american posters being allowed in the thread?
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May 15, 2017 02:40
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hakimashou posted:Its not occasional and they don't wander in dude. Wander out please Evil_Urna posted:Whats wrong with quoting someone who was objectively the greatest post war Prime Minister the UK had? The greatest post war prime minister was actually Clement atlee. I'd love to see an argument for why Thatcher was the best tho.
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May 15, 2017 02:41
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hakimashou posted:The US fought the bloodiest war in its history, the war in which more Americans died than in all the subsequent wars together, including the two big ones where we came to Europe's salvation, to end slavery. Given the state of race relations in America you probably could have tried harder wrt that.
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May 15, 2017 02:42
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Look at how the wise French people crushed an anti-NATO abomination in their election. Why would you run a freakshow anti-NATO candidate in a western democracy in TYOOL 2017? Maybe 20 years ago it would have worked when Soviet imperialism was smashed to bits and before Russian imperialism had risen from the ashes, but it's so incredibly tone-deaf in today's world. Hopefully the fact that Britain has that vile julian assange cooped up in London will be a disincentive for the now-familiar Kremlin 'leaks' offensive this go-round.
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May 15, 2017 02:43
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hakimashou posted:Look at how the wise French people crushed an anti-NATO abomination in their election. Do you still wish Russia had been obliterated in nuclear fire?
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May 15, 2017 02:45
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Namtab posted:Do you still wish Russia had been obliterated in nuclear fire? I wish we all were obliterated in nuclear fire!
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May 15, 2017 02:46
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Namtab posted:Given the state of race relations in America you probably could have tried harder wrt that. Didn't the last person of color to rise very high in your country's politics get hounded out on a rail? Stuff like "...spear Chukka!" in your national newspapers? I strive to put my finger on that leader of britain who wasn't white, but I can't do it. Meanwhile we elected then reelected a black man named Barack Hussein Obama as President of the United States of America. And you guys enacted the most transparently racist policy of a western democracy in a generation by referendum.
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May 15, 2017 02:46
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NATO is really the only reason why the Soviets were never able to advance further. Without the umbrella of protection that America provided to Europe, you would have lost everything that made you unique and great. NATO kept you safe from the communist hordes. NATO kept the world from descending into an atomic hellfire. What will the EU do? Send a strongly worded letter to Putin? Send the Italians?
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May 15, 2017 02:47
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Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:I wish we all were obliterated in nuclear fire! A powerful argument for trident renewal
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May 15, 2017 02:49
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lol if you think Brexit is more racist than Australian tropical concentration and torture camps.
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May 15, 2017 02:50
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:lol if you think Brexit is more racist than Australian tropical concentration and torture camps. That's a fair point, but the australians never had a popular referendum on that. Don't get me wrong australia is extremely bad. I used to rank them as the worst anglophone country, but brexit changed it because aside from being a bad and immoral policy in itself, it was also a betrayal.
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May 15, 2017 02:51
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