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Paul Zuvella posted:Look at this loving idiot The coolest thing whenever Bonds comes up is it turns into a total honeypot for dopes.
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May 16, 2017 17:10
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nobody tell The Walrus about greenies
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May 16, 2017 17:10
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Paul Zuvella posted:Hank Aaron, Mickey Mantle, and Willie Mays all admitted to cheating over the course of their careers through gratuitous use of amphetamines. Should they be removed from the hall? If they were caught taking them then yes. If they just claim/admit to have taken them no.
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May 16, 2017 17:11
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The Walrus posted:the fact everyone else was doing it, or it was tacitly endorsed, or whatever excused for cheating you want to put on it are irrelevant. he was cheating and got caught. all records are suspect. But Bonds was never caught tho
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May 16, 2017 17:11
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Spoeank posted:nobody tell The Walrus about greenies oops
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May 16, 2017 17:11
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:But Bonds was never caught tho oh lol well that is the first sensible thing anyone's said, if I was mistaken and he was just 'linked' than of course he should be in.
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May 16, 2017 17:11
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The Walrus posted:Either PEDs are allowed or their use excludes you from the HOF, I'm not sure there's a middle ground. They were allowed. For a really long time too. Including the vast majority of Barry Bonds' career.
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May 16, 2017 17:12
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The Walrus posted:If they were caught taking them then yes. If they just claim/admit to have taken them no. Barry Bonds was literally never caught cheating. e: beaten.
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May 16, 2017 17:13
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Paul Zuvella posted:Hank Aaron, Mickey Mantle, and Willie Mays all admitted to cheating over the course of their careers through gratuitous use of amphetamines. Should they be removed from the hall? I'm not actually participating in BondsHallDopeChat v13855 but this did make me curious: were amphetamines etc banned at that time?
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May 16, 2017 17:13
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:does this coincide with a replacement player line? It depends on IP, but over a full season it's slightly better than replacement level. Yordano Ventura pitched 186 IP with a 4.45 ERA last year for a WAR of 1.5, for example.
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May 16, 2017 17:13
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If Ozzie "Career .262/.337/.328" Smith can make it into the hall while playing in the steroid era, then just let everyone in imo.
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May 16, 2017 17:16
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bewbies posted:I'm not actually participating in BondsHallDopeChat v13855 but this did make me curious: were amphetamines etc banned at that time? Amphetamines were banned in the seventies but players continued using them into the new century. What with the hosed up road schedules a lot of teams (especially western ones) have they were seen as a necessity.
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May 16, 2017 17:20
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The Walrus posted:oh lol well that is the first sensible thing anyone's said, if I was mistaken and he was just 'linked' than of course he should be in. Cheating is and has always been a part of the game. Read Jason Turbow's "The Baseball Codes", he dedicates a few chapters to it. A hundred years ago the Pirates had a guy in the outfield with binoculars who would steal signs and change a crossbar in an advertising sign to reflect whether he thought a breaking pitch or a fastball was coming. More recently the Royals used the dividing colon in the clock to do the same thing.
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May 16, 2017 17:22
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bewbies posted:I'm not actually participating in BondsHallDopeChat v13855 but this did make me curious: were amphetamines etc banned at that time? They were banned in the same way steroids were banned in the 90s/early 2000s. There was technically a rule against it but no testing for it at the major league level and nobody actually gave a poo poo.
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May 16, 2017 17:23
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:OBP doesn't care for an error? I'm AOK with fielder's choice, you shouldn't get a hit just because there's already a man on. Fielders Choice is fine in most cases, but there are times where the only play is to get the lead runner in which case the hitter gets no credit where as if there was no lead runner they would have had a hit.
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May 16, 2017 17:24
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Kevlar v2.0 posted:If Ozzie "Career .262/.337/.328" Smith can make it into the hall while playing in the steroid era, then just let everyone in imo. He used a secret portal to the Hall only accessible via the Mystery Spot.
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May 16, 2017 17:27
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Pancakes posted:He used a secret portal to the Hall only accessible via the Mystery Spot. His career OPS is .666 so this checks out. If only Alan Trammell had done a flip once. 
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May 16, 2017 17:30
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Ozzie Smith is fuckin cool as hell and fellas, are you tired of your ex-wife retaining custody of your children and receiving thousands of dollars per month of alimony? Call my friends at Cordell & Cordell today to take back your life.
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May 16, 2017 17:32
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Is there any modern baseball nerd analysis discussing just how good Ozzie Smith was defensively? I remember him always being described as "best defensive player ever" etc by announcers when I was a kid but I have no idea if that analysis would survive modern analytics in much the same way Dorak Jeater did not.
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May 16, 2017 17:36
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bewbies posted:Is there any modern baseball nerd analysis discussing just how good Ozzie Smith was defensively? I remember him always being described as "best defensive player ever" etc by announcers when I was a kid but I have no idea if that analysis would survive modern analytics in much the same way Dorak Jeater did not. Just quickly, career defensive WAR: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_def_career.shtml Ozzie was really drat good at defense.
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May 16, 2017 17:39
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All BBWAA voters should be forced to listen to 50 minutes of BondsChat with the Cespedes BBQ guys, and the ones stll harrumphing about cheating afterwards should have their votes taken away.
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May 16, 2017 17:40
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tinstaach posted:All BBWAA voters should be forced to listen to 50 minutes of BondsChat with the Cespedes BBQ guys, and the ones stll harrumphing about cheating afterwards should have their votes taken away. Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwMfT2cZGHg Roids don't matter if you have a .600 OBP without the bat!
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May 16, 2017 17:41
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Popete posted:Fielders Choice is fine in most cases, but there are times where the only play is to get the lead runner in which case the hitter gets no credit where as if there was no lead runner they would have had a hit. It's theoretically possible this could happen (slow runner on first, fast runner at the plate, ground ball hit into the hole) but I certainly can't recall seeing it actually ever take place.
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May 16, 2017 17:41
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Inspector_666 posted:Also I'm still skeptical about this conclusion. For one thing, pitches Bonds sees at 0-2 are not going to have the same ball-strike ratio as pitches he sees at 3-0.
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May 16, 2017 17:43
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bewbies posted:Is there any modern baseball nerd analysis discussing just how good Ozzie Smith was defensively? I remember him always being described as "best defensive player ever" etc by announcers when I was a kid but I have no idea if that analysis would survive modern analytics in much the same way Dorak Jeater did not. He leads all MLB players in career defensive WAR with 43.4, he also had 47.8 Off. WAR so he was pretty drat great at his job
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May 16, 2017 17:46
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Kevlar v2.0 posted:If Ozzie "Career .262/.337/.328" Smith can make it into the hall while playing in the steroid era, then just let everyone in imo. But he was literally a wizard  Everything Barry Bonds did was "legal" in the sense of MLB because that poo poo wasn't banned yet and the policy didn't go into effect until 2005. And then in 2006 and 2007 he STILL slashed 273/467/554 with 54 dingers as a god drat 41 and 42 year old.
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May 16, 2017 17:47
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Julio Cruz posted:I'm still skeptical about this conclusion. For one thing, pitches Bonds sees at 0-2 are not going to have the same ball-strike ratio as pitches he sees at 3-0. Yeah, the whole point was just "I need a probability of stirke/ball without digging too far"
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May 16, 2017 17:47
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Pancakes posted:Just quickly, career defensive WAR: El Gallinero Gros posted:He leads all MLB players in career defensive WAR with 43.4, he also had 47.8 Off. WAR so he was pretty drat great at his job I know about his dWAR and etc....I was under the impression though that dWAR for past players was kinda iffy and thus curious if any further analysis had been done.
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May 16, 2017 17:48
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Kalenn Istarion posted:I honestly can't remember whether any of the early 90s Jays got caught doping. None of the early '90s Jays would have been popped because MLB didn't begin drug testing until 2003.
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May 16, 2017 17:53
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Julio Cruz posted:I'm still skeptical about this conclusion. For one thing, pitches Bonds sees at 0-2 are not going to have the same ball-strike ratio as pitches he sees at 3-0. Not to mention that his bat was so feared that he was literally intentionally walked with the bases loaded on at least one occasion
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May 16, 2017 18:08
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Julio Cruz posted:loving truth. Before 1998 (which is when he started according to Game of Shadows) he had 7400 PAs with a 162 OPS+, 3 MVPs and 91.5 WAR. People only remember his power hitting years. They forget he's the only member of the 400-400 and 500-500 club. In 1990 he had 33 HR, 114 RBI, 52 SB, an OPS of .970 and 9.7 WAR. In '93 he had 46 HR, 123 RBI, only 29 SB with a OPS of 1.136 and 9.9 WAR. I would say his only weakness was his arm in the field. Rad Valtar fucked around with this message at 18:16 on May 16, 2017 |
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May 16, 2017 18:11
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Yeah but he had less than 3000 hits, lmao
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May 16, 2017 18:12
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Bonds was always sick to watch, but man when he had his speed when he was young, was watching a guy play a different game. We were spoiled in the 80s and 90s with players.
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May 16, 2017 18:19
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Mike_V posted:Ozzie Smith is fuckin cool as hell and fellas, are you tired of your ex-wife retaining custody of your children and receiving thousands of dollars per month of alimony? Call my friends at Cordell & Cordell today to take back your life. If you feel like you're getting further and further behind, pressured by creditors seeking to seize your money or property, and are looking to get a fresh start, call T.J. Mullin, Attorney at Law. 862-7474 or in Illinois 277-0707. That's 862-7474 or in Illinois 277-0707. I can never remember the phone numbers of my friends and family but I'll always remember how to contact T.J. Mullin.
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May 16, 2017 18:27
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Speaking of, have the Cardinals as an organization put whatever bad blood was between them and the Wizard behind them? I thought I saw that he was doing stuff for their post-game show on FSMW. Was it LaRussa who started that?
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May 16, 2017 18:28
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p. nice Wolf Parade ref posted:Bonds was always sick to watch, but man when he had his speed when he was young, was watching a guy play a different game. We were spoiled in the 80s and 90s with players. Arod stole 111 bases from '96-'99 and Bonds stole 120. They were not of this Earth.
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May 16, 2017 18:29
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bewbies posted:I know about his dWAR and etc....I was under the impression though that dWAR for past players was kinda iffy and thus curious if any further analysis had been done. I read on BP that he also saved about 200 runs total for his career with his D. What's really impressive about that is he was actually a bit of a liability in the last 2 years of his career (-16.7 Fielding Runs Above Average), so had he retired before that, he'd finish with 209 FRAA, which is an average of about 12.5 a year. By comparison, JJ Hardy won the GG 3 times in a row, and his FRAA was 21.5 in 2012 with only 6 errors (absolutely worthy), -12.2 with 8 Errors (probably should have gone to Dozier, and Hardy shouldn't have got it ), and 1.7 in 2014, although his RTOT was 14. They absolutely could have given it to Dozier there too, although because he bounces back between 2B and SS I seE why they didn't. Let's take Ozzie's best 3 year stretch as a fielder (84-85 to 86-87 ) and compare: an average FPCT of .980, an FRAA of 29.9, AND only 41 errors 1453 chances. And AN AVERAGE OF 16.5 RTOT. Ozzie was the loving man.
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May 16, 2017 18:34
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Darude - Adam Sandstorm posted:Your favorite player from the 80s or 90s probably did all kinds of illegal poo poo to play baseball better. Unless you're a Mets fan in which case it was just a shitload of coke
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May 16, 2017 18:51
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Poque posted:Not to mention that his bat was so feared that he was literally intentionally walked with the bases loaded on at least one occasion This doesn't even do it justice. It was the bottom of the ninth and walking him made it a one run game http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/67794252/v134341083/arisf-dbacks-walk-bonds-with-the-bases-loaded
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May 16, 2017 18:52
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Inspector_666 posted:Also can we change it so that inherited runners count as .5 towards the ERA for both the pitcher who let the man on base and the pitcher who let him score? Just assign the expected runs from for the outs+baserunners scenario to the outgoing pitcher and credit them to the reliever. Then all future runs are assigned to the reliver.
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