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Mr. Fowl posted:Yeah, but there was less existential terror and fear for the possible collapse of the republic. No, but W was still a worse president than Trump has been, not for lack of trying or anything, probably just time. But in the end, W started 2 endless wars that eventually resulted in Daesh and the further destabilization of the ME. And incalculable death and disfigurement, american and otherwise. Given 8 years, Trump would probably be worse, but let's hope he won't make it two.
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May 17, 2017 16:52
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IRQ posted:No, but W was still a worse president than Trump has been, not for lack of trying or anything, probably just time. But in the end, W started 2 endless wars that eventually resulted in Daesh and the further destabilization of the ME. And incalculable death and disfigurement, american and otherwise. I think that's the main fear; it's not that Trump has actually caused more harm thus far, but that his gross incompetence combined with his impulsive personality means that he easily could. Bush made bad decisions but at least he seemed like he understood the job of being president; Trump is a guy who legitimately asked why the US shouldn't use its nukes. Although I think the bigger fear is that someone like Trump was able to get elected in the first place. Bush was SUPPOSED to be as bad as it got. Even if Trump only won due to the electoral college, it still speaks to a wider cultural issue that he was able to get as many votes as he did - Look at how badly Le Pen was crushed in France. That should have been the popular vote ratio for a guy like Trump.
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May 17, 2017 17:04
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Bush caused a lot of suffering for people both domestic and abroad. He also further destabilized a region. He still left the country more or less as is though. If Trump runs his course, America itself will be fundamentally changed. The government will no longer be dysfunctional, it will be broken. Institutions that we rely on to keep us healthy and safe will either be gone or completely given over to corporate governance. Our allies will have to keep us at the kiddy table because we lost their trust. If things ended right now, Bush has a worst legacy. That won't be true for long though.
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May 17, 2017 17:24
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Let's put it this way: when George W. Bush was 100 days into his presidency, his administration was mostly forgettable, no real big shake ups, and you really have to dig deep to look it up, because the big things that defined his presidency still wouldn't be set in motion for another 100+ days. If it hadn't been for the chain reaction of 9/11/war on terror/war in Afghanistan/war in Iraq, he would've been mostly one of those forgettable generically affable idiots, a lot like James Buchanan. You could also make a good argument for the fact that whatever W did that was bad, the responsibility for his actions rests on more shoulders than any of Trump's attempts. W may have instigated the wars, but congress was spooked enough to almost unanimously vote in favor of them. W also had a close group of people working with him on all his ventures, whereas Trump can barely keep any of his staff together, and the ones that don't quit still have no idea what's going on. When he acts, he acts almost totally alone, and like gently caress is he going to do anything right with congress. He's such a bad person that it gets in the way of being able to get anything done.
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May 17, 2017 23:15
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bull3964 posted:Bush caused a lot of suffering for people both domestic and abroad. He also further destabilized a region. He still left the country more or less as is though. He left the country in an economic crisis. It's fascinating how many people seem to have amnesia about that little detail when it hasn't even been a full decade.
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May 17, 2017 23:53
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raditts posted:He left the country in an economic crisis. That was hardly bush juniors fault. He was just there when it happened.
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May 17, 2017 23:56
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At least Bush Sr believed in working to combat climate change, unlike Reagan who was so anti-energy-conservation that he loving removed the solar powered water heating system Carter had installed during his time in office, or his son Bush Jr. At this point though it really has become "you cannot be a conservative unless you claim to not believe in climate change/are against renewable/alternative energy sources and industries".
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May 18, 2017 01:05
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Yeah that was something long coming. Almost no one in his position could have avoided that loving train wreck
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May 18, 2017 01:06
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Burkion posted:Yeah that was something long coming. Almost no one in his position could have avoided that loving train wreck quote:George W. Bush - President Bush added the second-greatest amount to the debt, at $5.849 trillion. But this was the fourth-largest percentage increase out of all the presidents. Bush increased the debt 101 percent from where it started on September 30, 2001, at $5.8 trillion. That's the end of FY 2001, which was President Clinton's last budget. Bush responded to the 9/11 attacks by launching the War on Terror. That drove military spending to record levels of $600-$800 billion a year. It included the Iraq War, which cost $807.5 billion. Or we could use http://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/  I mean I don't like Bill Clinton especialyl after his aggressive and unbending attitude toward black lives and his war on crime, but he didn't exactly leave Bush with a flaming bag of dogshit on the porch when he left the White House.
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May 18, 2017 01:21
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They wasting of budget surplus to dumb tax cuts and stupid war is absolutely on W's head. The financial crisis that nearly took us back to Hoovervilles was a long time coming on a tide of short sighted decisions dating back decades. For that he shares blame with everyone who helped roll back New Deal regulations, which I believe takes you back to Truman or Ike. Maybe with some blame reserved for FDR when he failed to line the White House fence with the heads of bankers and other financial villains.
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May 18, 2017 01:52
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raditts posted:He left the country in an economic crisis. What I meant was there weren't any fundamental shifts in the political landscape. The institutions were intact if battered. We aren't going to have anything left at this pace at the end of 4 years.
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May 18, 2017 02:23
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coyo7e posted:At least Bush Sr believed in working to combat climate change, unlike Reagan who was so anti-energy-conservation that he loving removed the solar powered water heating system Carter had installed during his time in office, or his son Bush Jr. It's really quite insane that the "conservative" identity has basically become "whatever liberals support, do the exact opposite" no matter how absurd that might be. And now that has become "literally support Russian tampering in our election process, and cheering on Nazis and klansmen"
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May 18, 2017 03:44
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I don't think the "Bush or Trump: who is worse?" debate is particularly useful. I just feel the slight rehabilitation of Dubya by establishment liberals, with the former president willing to play along, is very harmful. I remembered when Bush was president, my teenage self tried constructing a narrative that Bush was uniquely terrible in ways Nixon or Reagan were not in order to further legitimize my distaste for him. But ultimately, I recognized both his domestic and foreign agendas were an extension (or a logical result) of the political and cultural forces that were present and articulated by previous Republican (and Democratic) presidents. And that's how I understand Trumpism following Bush. Bush waged war on the poor with the "trickle down" ideology, claiming it would help all Americans. Trump dropped those pretensions when promising to protect welfare for white people but not so much for minorities. But then he essentially continued Bush's policy there. Bush destroyed the middle east to make America safe and spread democracy. Trump understood it was jingoism for the sake of jingoism. Bush tortured people but felt bad about it. Trump endorsed torture on the campaign trail as a way to extralegally punish the bad guys, realizing it was always about cathartic sadism in the electorate, rather than intelligence. Bush tapped into the cultural divisions of the whole Red State vs. Blue State meme to beat John Kerry. Trump further weaponized it. Bush did nothing on global warming but pretended he cared. Trump recognized environmentalism as another cultural wedge issue, and took it to its logical conclusion. Bush discreetly waged war on journalists. Trump publicly attacks the press. If Trump survives the current mess he's in, it's possible he could be a worse president than Bush and achieve a higher body count. But I'm always going to personally hate Bush more. Echo Chamber fucked around with this message at 04:09 on May 18, 2017 |
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May 18, 2017 04:07
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I think the big divide between Trump and Bush for me is that I can point to some positives of the Bush administration whereas so far (to be fair, a short time) I do not have much for Trump.
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May 18, 2017 04:15
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Echo Chamber posted:Bush discreetly waged war on journalists. Bush called a reporter "a major league rear end in a top hat" while the mic was on, but he could at least fake an answer. But the press has kept an antagonistic stance with every President after JFK (who he could charm endlessly even while he was high off his rear end on painkillers and starting wars.) Keep in mind Trump ran on "nobody dies in the streets", "the war was a huge error" etc. He was running against a lot of Republican dogma going back to the shining city on the hill; the idea that we voluntarily cede power in leading the world, let them solve their problems with their own devices, and use the power of the economy to take care of our friends and loved ones. It just turns out that all of Trump's friends and loved ones are super wealthy.
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May 18, 2017 04:16
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I think you grossly overestimate trump's "understanding" of anything he's doing in any context that doesn't involve self-aggrandizement.
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May 18, 2017 04:27
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raditts posted:I think you grossly overestimate trump's "understanding" of anything he's doing in any context that doesn't involve self-aggrandizement. To be fair I'm pretty sure we're also overestimating Bush's understanding of a lot of the stuff he was doing as well. I mean it was a known thing at the time that Cheney and Rumsfeld were the ones calling the shots. The Trump administration isn't really much different except that Trump isn't even good at pretending that he knows what he's doing.
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May 18, 2017 05:07
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raditts posted:It's really quite insane that the "conservative" identity has basically become "whatever liberals support, do the exact opposite" no matter how absurd that might be. And now that has become "literally support Russian tampering in our election process, and cheering on Nazis and klansmen"
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May 18, 2017 05:16
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The Cheshire Cat posted:To be fair I'm pretty sure we're also overestimating Bush's understanding of a lot of the stuff he was doing as well. I mean it was a known thing at the time that Cheney and Rumsfeld were the ones calling the shots. The Trump administration isn't really much different except that Trump isn't even good at pretending that he knows what he's doing.
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May 18, 2017 05:17
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stone cold posted:Dog pizza best pizza. My favorite part, as a dog person/parent/owner/whatever, was that the dog pizza not only had a stuffed dog toy on top, but the toy was torn open and there was stuffing all over the place. That really captures the essence of what it's like to have a dog in the family.  Echo Chamber posted:If Trump survives the current mess he's in, it's possible he could be a worse president than Bush and achieve a higher body count. But I'm always going to personally hate Bush more. I don't want to get too into the whole "Bush v. Trump, who's worse" thing, but I'll admit that for every lovely thing that happened under Bush, I'd still rather have him as President than Trump/Bannon/Putin (for various reasons.) Your comment above, though, led me to summarize the Bush/Trump comparison as, "We hate what Bush did more than what Trump has done, but we hate Trump personally far more than Bush." Bush was a dumb oaf, Trump is a gigantic demented idiotic narcissistic man-child with tiny hands.
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May 18, 2017 10:45
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I know the news is being dominated by Trump, but the FCC just voted to dismantle title2. Hope Jon takes time to mention it.
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May 19, 2017 02:13
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No.1 Special posted:I know the news is being dominated by Trump, but the FCC just voted to dismantle title2. Hope Jon takes time to mention it. It doesn't mean the service providers can celebrate just yet - it does trigger a months-to-years-long process that I'm betting Pai thinks people will bore people out of caring.
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May 19, 2017 09:54
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BIG HEADLINE posted:It doesn't mean the service providers can celebrate just yet - it does trigger a months-to-years-long process that I'm betting Pai thinks people will bore people out of caring. Well, it's not like people will even still be using the Internet by then. The silly fad has to end sometime.
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May 22, 2017 02:09
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coyo7e posted:I mean I don't like Bill Clinton especialyl after his aggressive and unbending attitude toward black lives and his war on crime, but he didn't exactly leave Bush with a flaming bag of dogshit on the porch when he left the White House. That chart, and the data it's based off of, says nothing to point you're trying to make. And to be fair it's a common problem. Clinton had a balanced budget in that the projection for each year showed a net positive dollar value, which is a good thing, but he (and Congress) then went on to spend the budget surplus and then some. The net result is that the amount of debt held by the US increased. Which means short of being able to say he didn't leave the budget in a condition comparable to the 4 utterly terrible examples over the last century, he didn't do anything special and showing how the Government had a projected budget surplus for a few of his years is 100% misleading and irrelevant when talking about the debt or for showing actual responsible federal spending. I will say he came so close in FY2000, close enough to give him a pass and just blame it on extenuating circumstances and the economy as a whole, but still not a good example.
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May 22, 2017 04:12
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The 3 minute segment on the TSA was pretty great, basically making fun of the way they do their segments.
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May 22, 2017 16:07
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nessin posted:That chart, and the data it's based off of, says nothing to point you're trying to make. And to be fair it's a common problem. Clinton had a balanced budget in that the projection for each year showed a net positive dollar value, which is a good thing, but he (and Congress) then went on to spend the budget surplus and then some. The net result is that the amount of debt held by the US increased. Which means short of being able to say he didn't leave the budget in a condition comparable to the 4 utterly terrible examples over the last century, he didn't do anything special and showing how the Government had a projected budget surplus for a few of his years is 100% misleading and irrelevant when talking about the debt or for showing actual responsible federal spending. Either way, Bush unambiguously followed things up by violently making GBS threads the bed.
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May 22, 2017 17:34
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PT6A posted:Really, literally everything looks preferable to what we have right now. I'm starting to miss Dubya, for gently caress sake! Bring on any Clinton! Let's give George a try
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May 23, 2017 02:00
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The TSA thing was really good. A dude that can look at his work and mock himself pretty fiercely is pretty funny
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May 23, 2017 02:20
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Azhais posted:Bring on any Clinton! Let's give George a try George would legalize weed at the very least. And I could get behind the cabinet picks he listed in Chocolate City.
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May 23, 2017 03:07
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raditts posted:George would legalize weed at the very least. And I could get behind the cabinet picks he listed in Chocolate City. If the Cabinet and all Ambassadors agree to only dress like they're getting ready to put on a Parliament-Funkadelic concert I will sell all that I own and work for the campaign 24/7.
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May 23, 2017 03:26
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Latest episode was perfect. Just the right amount of time (90% of the episode) spent on Trump scandals; TSA comedy; penguins.
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May 23, 2017 10:16
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Is it okay to link LWT-esque segments from other people? Keith Olbermann debunks the Seth Rich conspiracy theory, and hot drat he's pretty good at this. https://youtu.be/l5AM-UUeCXI
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May 23, 2017 11:45
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Keith's always been great at his sermons. It doesn't hurt that he's always actually got the facts on his side with them, too.
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May 23, 2017 11:57
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Apoplexy posted:Keith's always been great at his sermons. It doesn't hurt that he's always actually got the facts on his side with them, too. I liked him when he used to be on MSNBC, it's a shame he spent so much time getting into petty slapfights with Fox News pundits though.
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May 23, 2017 14:29
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I liked his show except for the whole pomposity of having friday night literature readings and 20 minute long tangents about baseball history.
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May 23, 2017 20:45
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Olbermann was a jumped up sportscaster hence the baseballs.
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May 23, 2017 20:57
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I understand it, I just don't wanna hear about baseball during my liberal news hour. The Most Boringest Game
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May 23, 2017 21:09
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Yeah, baseball is as boring as something can possibly get without breaching into being golf.
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May 23, 2017 21:44
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I'm the guy who didn't care for Keith Olbermann and thought he was part of the problem with cable news during his MSNBC days. But since he's long gone from that, my opinion of his thawed a little. But not much. He's been flying under the radar. I don't really care for sports either.
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May 23, 2017 22:00
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The rundown of the line of succession for the Presidency during the main segment was pretty depressing. How did the US end up with a system where if the election is essentially stolen, the people who stole it basically still get to hold on to it by dumping a few people at the top? In Canada or the UK, if poo poo like this happened, they have another election. I mean I guess midterms come in 2018 which can shake up congress, but considering the amount of damage they've done in just 4 months, it kind of seems a bit more urgent than that.
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May 23, 2017 22:55
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