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LemonDrizzle posted:No, just reading a completely unambiguous policy commitment as a completely unambiguous policy commitment. Cerebral Bore posted:I think you all might be mistaking the descriptive for the normative again. If you actually read the rest of the section it sounds much more like they're aiming for retaining freedom of movement in all but the name rather than some throw out johnny foreigner bullshit. EDIT: Like, are you unaware that EU freedom of movement actually has conditions attached to it already? Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 09:22 on May 28, 2017 |
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May 28, 2017 09:20
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Let's get Labour in and find out. It's the only way to be sure.
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May 28, 2017 09:31
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Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:I take you have never been around youngs who start screeching that their parents got free Uni while they get lumped with debt for studying at Uni Didn't take you long to go full alt-right and worship at the altar of Ben Garrison, did it? I went to Uni when it was free but while the grants were being phased out. I had some debt from loans that has been paid off. I will still stand with the young people being saddled with a lifetime of debt in order to get the opportunity I was freely given. So gently caress off.
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May 28, 2017 09:33
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Pissflaps posted:A google spreadsheet that lists civilian deaths without saying who caused them? That's your 'evidence'? I see. Actually the earlier posts where I quoted the unionist civilian killing figures were from a university run database of deaths that lists individuals if you'd bothered to check you brain dead gently caress.
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May 28, 2017 09:41
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namesake posted:All the stuff about keeping the benefits of single market access, not accepting 'no deal' situations; wanting transition arrangements, etc. LemonDrizzle fucked around with this message at 09:49 on May 28, 2017 |
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May 28, 2017 09:46
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Ffs who let Abbot go on tv again?
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May 28, 2017 09:47
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me everytime abbott is on tv https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_asNhzXq72w
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May 28, 2017 09:48
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LemonDrizzle posted:The bit about ending freedom of movement is a firm commitment - "freedom of movement will end" - and also the only thing that the UK government can do unilaterally. All the other stuff is "a negotiating priority". It's exactly the same 'have our cake and eat it' fantasy that the Tories were peddling last year - that we can end free movement but the EU will then magically go back on everything it's said about the four freedoms being indivisible, there being no cherrypicking of single market benefits/rights, no sectoral deals, and so on. The sun will rise tomorrow <-- not a policy commitment. The actual commitments in the manifesto generally start with 'Labour will', 'A Labour government will', 'We will'. The sentence you quote doesn't say this for a reason.
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May 28, 2017 09:51
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Oh dear me posted:The sun will rise tomorrow <-- not a policy commitment.
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May 28, 2017 09:54
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LemonDrizzle posted:The bit about ending freedom of movement is a firm commitment - "freedom of movement will end" - and also the only thing that the UK government can do unilaterally. All the other stuff is "a negotiating priority"; in other words "we're going to do the thing you said is fundamentally incompatible with all the nice stuff that we want, and then ask if we can have the nice stuff anyway." It's exactly the same 'have our cake and eat it' fantasy that the Tories were peddling last year - that we can end free movement but the EU will then magically go back on everything it's said about the four freedoms being indivisible, there being no cherrypicking of single market benefits/rights, no sectoral deals, and so on. Okay but then balance that with 'Working together we will institute a new system which is based on our economic needs, balancing controls and existing entitlements.' and all the stuff they say about the Single Market. Yes it is quite similar to what the Tories said a while ago but when they were called out on it they went full hard Brexit, meanwhile when Labour have spoken about this they've stuck to stating technical facts like 'Immigration law will have to change when we leave the EU' but stress their priorities are economic stability and protecting people; it's not projecting anything to suggest that Labour is very, very open to soft Brexit.
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May 28, 2017 10:02
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a pipe smoking dog posted:Someone posted that yesterday! Please rectify his mistake and show us what's overleaf.  The idea of direct government via a phone app is just as batshit as the front side but not as entertainingly so.
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May 28, 2017 10:02
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serious gaylord posted:Ffs who let Abbot go on tv again? Seriously, surely part of Corbyn's improved media strategy has to be keeping her the gently caress away from any TV cameras.
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May 28, 2017 10:04
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Jippa posted:I heard a thing on the radio a while back where they interviewed a load of leavers together about the election and then a load of remainers. In the remainers section they had a load of labour voters and a load of people that had voted lib dem previously. It's because you vote Libdem if you're reasonably happy with where things are heading, it doesn't particularly matter who is running the party because the whole point is that they're just an administrator. Conversely, if you vote Corbyn-led Labour or Green you want to change where things are heading whereas if you vote UKIP or Tory you want to stop things from heading anywhere in the first place.
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May 28, 2017 10:04
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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serious gaylord posted:Ffs who let Abbot go on tv again? Every time she shows up I can hear the Tory lead grow a couple of points.
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May 28, 2017 10:04
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ookiimarukochan posted:Have some election material that I got through my door yesterday Wonder if that orb gives him +2 leadership. Also how doe he expect to draw that sword when it's strapped to his back? I don't think this fantasy drawing is quite right.
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May 28, 2017 10:05
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serious gaylord posted:Ffs who let Abbot go on tv again? How bad was it this time?
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May 28, 2017 10:08
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LemonDrizzle posted:It is very obviously a policy commitment if you have exclusive control over the rising of the sun, and the sun will not rise unless you specifically act to make it do so. The UK government has exclusive control over its policy on free movement. But it does not have control over the EU's policy on free movement. 'Freedom of movement will end' for British citizens. I think this is very obviously phrased deliberately to avoid commitment (and postpone the need for shadow cabinet unanimity).
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May 28, 2017 10:13
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ookiimarukochan posted:Have some election material that I got through my door yesterday I don't think that's how the Orb works, dude. 
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May 28, 2017 10:18
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ookiimarukochan posted:Have some election material that I got through my door yesterday Ah hell Id vote for discount Geralt.
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May 28, 2017 10:20
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LemonDrizzle posted:The bit about ending freedom of movement is a firm commitment - "freedom of movement will end" - and also the only thing that the UK government can do unilaterally. All the other stuff is "a negotiating priority"; in other words "we're going to do the thing you said is fundamentally incompatible with all the nice stuff that we want, and then ask if we can have the nice stuff anyway." It's exactly the same 'have our cake and eat it' fantasy that the Tories were peddling last year - that we can end free movement but the EU will then magically go back on everything it's said about the four freedoms being indivisible, there being no cherrypicking of single market benefits/rights, no sectoral deals, and so on. Well you could convince the EU to play ball on having the four freedoms not be indivisible if you had a strong and stable negotiating position. And if it was also in the EU's interest.
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May 28, 2017 10:22
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Surprise Giraffe posted:How bad was it this time? https://twitter.com/BBCJonSopel/sta...n-2017-40037061
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May 28, 2017 10:25
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bessantj posted:Wonder if that orb gives him +2 leadership. Also how doe he expect to draw that sword when it's strapped to his back? I don't think this fantasy drawing is quite right. 
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May 28, 2017 10:26
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Praseodymi posted:I'm guessing you quoted the headline rather than just quoting Kier Starmer because this is the article where he correctly stated that freedom of movement would end if we left the single market, and didn't actually lay out any policy? http://press.labour.org.uk/post/159971207604/keir-starmer-speech-on-labours-approach-to-brexit He says they recognise immigration rules will have to change after Brexit. The current immigration rules are free movement of EU citizens. Ergo these will have to change to something other than free movement of EU citizens. Later on it talks about membership of a "reformed" single market, ie one without freedom of movement. If that's impossible (hint: it is) then they will leave the single market and seek some sort of deal. The single market without freedom of movement is literally Johnson's "have your cake and eat it" policy. The EU has said repeatedly it is not a deal that's on offer. If you take this speech seriously, Labour's Brexit policy is "we'll stay in the single market by inventing a faster-than-light spaceship and figuring out how to divide be zero. If FOR SOME INEXPLICABLE REASON this SENSIBLE PLAN doesn't work then I guess we'll have to leave."
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May 28, 2017 10:32
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It's also with remembering that Vote Leave repeatedly described leaving the single market as "mad" and something "no-one is taking about" so both Labour and the Tories are now more hardcore Brexiteers than the official Brexit campaign was during campaigning. Were Vote Leave full of poo poo? Yes. But everyone has just meekly accepted their massive bait and switch and hard Brexit is where both parties will take us.
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May 28, 2017 10:36
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LemonDrizzle posted:The bit about ending freedom of movement is a firm commitment - "freedom of movement will end" - and also the only thing that the UK government can do unilaterally. All the other stuff is "a negotiating priority"; in other words "we're going to do the thing you said is fundamentally incompatible with all the nice stuff that we want, and then ask if we can have the nice stuff anyway." It's exactly the same 'have our cake and eat it' fantasy that the Tories were peddling last year - that we can end free movement but the EU will then magically go back on everything it's said about the four freedoms being indivisible, there being no cherrypicking of single market benefits/rights, no sectoral deals, and so on. Are you completely ignorant of how freedom of movement in the EU works or what? Because here's a hint: It only applies to EU nationals. Which British citizens won't be after you leave the EU. It's literally a descriptive statement. What you can have as a non-EU member is either EEA membership or a bilateral treaty that guarantees equivalent rights of movement, but that's something that has to be negotiated separately. Fortunately Labour also wrote more things into that chapter of the manifesto, and looking at those we can see that they're practically agreeing to signing such a treaty already. Zephro posted:Here's the speech. Yeah, it'll have to change because the EU freedom of movement literally only applies to EU nationals. Everybody else has to negotiate a separate agreement to access the single market. These are descriptive statements. This shouldn't be this hard to grasp. EDIT: And besides that he spends like half the speech highlighting that retaining access to the single market is the number one priority.
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May 28, 2017 10:37
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endlessmonotony posted:Well you could convince the EU to play ball on having the four freedoms not be indivisible if you had a strong and stable negotiating position. And if it was also in the EU's interest. The EU will never allow the four freedoms to be divisible, because they are the core trade off in the EU, where the stronger economies get market access to the weaker ones in trade for opening their labor market to migrants from those countries. The only solution for the UK would be to actually educate it's population that freedom of movement is actually a benefit for the UK as a whole, which seems to be a lost cause.
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May 28, 2017 10:38
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ookiimarukochan posted:Have some election material that I got through my door yesterday Strange thing for Richard Hatch to have faked his death to pursue.
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May 28, 2017 10:38
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Jedit posted:Didn't take you long to go full alt-right and worship at the altar of Ben Garrison, did it? What part of that statement was alt right? I'm a fence sitting radical centrist who's only interest is in the dankest and creamiest of memes
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May 28, 2017 10:42
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GaussianCopula posted:The EU will never allow the four freedoms to be divisible
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May 28, 2017 10:47
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jBrereton posted:Given that it routinely restricts the movement of people from new member states, that rings hollow. I may be wrong (90% chance here) Wasn't there a news article awhile back saying IF Turkey joined the EU the freedom of movement was going to be restricted for Turks?
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May 28, 2017 10:50
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New scotland poll from SurveyMonkey (the comparison is against 2015): https://twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/868757769561800704 I wonder what happens in Scotland if some SNP votes go Tory? Is that enough for some Tory seats in Scotland, or will it help some Labour wins?
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May 28, 2017 10:52
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GaussianCopula posted:The EU will never allow the four freedoms to be divisible, because they are the core trade off in the EU, where the stronger economies get market access to the weaker ones in trade for opening their labor market to migrants from those countries. holy poo poo a gaussian copula post that's mostly accurate and good! i agree!
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May 28, 2017 10:53
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Cerebral Bore posted:Are you completely ignorant of how freedom of movement in the EU works or what? Because here's a hint: It only applies to EU nationals.
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May 28, 2017 10:53
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Cerebral Bore posted:EDIT: And besides that he spends like half the speech highlighting that retaining access to the single market is the number one priority. Labour have a structural Brexit problem because the richer, younger, metropolitan half of their supporters think it's stupid while the poorer, older, more provincial half think it's a good idea. This is an attempt to paper over the cracks with ambiguous statements and pedantry and undeliverable promises designed to mollify both sides, but the logic points straight at a hard Brexit.
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May 28, 2017 10:54
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You don't even have to look to hypotheticals about Turkey for that, there is quite explicit language in the accession treaties of 2003/2005 about the rights of old member states to keep out foreign workers for up to seven years (five without any real proof it will help their country to do so).
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May 28, 2017 10:54
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She's literally a clown. Lord of the Llamas posted:Actually the earlier posts where I quoted the unionist civilian killing figures were from a university run database of deaths that lists individuals if you'd bothered to check you brain dead gently caress. Bothering to check your angry little missives is not one of my priorities.
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May 28, 2017 10:57
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Pissflaps posted:Bothering to check your angry little missives is not one of my priorities. Based Pissflaps working the marks with impressive heel work
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May 28, 2017 10:59
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Imagine Diane Abbott as Home Secretary. No I can't either.
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May 28, 2017 11:02
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Pissflaps posted:Bothering to check your angry little missives is not one of my priorities. God forbid you'd properly read the posts responding to the pedantic derails that you start, here in the thread where you spend your life
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May 28, 2017 11:03
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she might be actually competent when its not an interview? probably not though
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May 28, 2017 11:03
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