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yea, as has been noted before itt, it's not a coincidence that the republican campaign that explicitly promised to strengthen safety net programs was the same one explicitly promising to ban refugees and build a wall. the far right already has a philosophy of government collectivism, and it's fascism. if the left can eventually deliver enough help to these ppl in spite of themselves then they'll embrace it after the fact, the way social security is popular and even o-care is suddenly spiking in popularity now that the alternative is clear
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May 28, 2017 22:52
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Even though the concern about fascism is real and valid, it does miss that economic nationalism which calls for protectionist trade policies, social safety nets, and exclusion of immigrants is just as real and as much a part of what we're seeing re-emerge with Trump. Misidentifying this aspect of the current trend as unalloyed fascism risks normalizing fascism the way the right has normalized socialism, and also discards the huge array of leftist rhetoric which was developed in past struggles between socialism and economic nationalism to expose the way anti-immigration sentiment is used to divide workers and turn us against our own self-interest.
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May 28, 2017 23:42
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Annual Prophet posted:-- Lee Atwater, circa 1981 Atwater circa 1981: You can achieve overwhelming electoral success when you drop the idiot race war rhetoric and focus on economics instead. Democrats circa 2017: We must secure the existence of our people and a future for woke children
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May 28, 2017 23:49
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a separate thread is needed for this derail (maybe it belongs in effective leftism?), but two quick points: - low rent retail politics is alive and well, and its pieces (which include slogans, plain language, charisma where available and otherizing) work just great, as we've been seeing for three decades. talking in paragraphs and coming off like an investment banker, silicon valley millionaire or other egghead is never going to be as powerful as conveying a message like "peace, bread, land"; instead it will induce resentment and disdain. - if you really want to bring people together you're going to have to force yourself to see, validate and confront people's reasonable concerns (jobs, preservation of culture in some cases, safety from crime, a better life for their kids, etc.), even when they're encrusted with all kinds of horrible attitudes, as they very much are, for example, throughout the deep south. (imagine faith is important to you, causing you to promote faith based charity rather than government assistance, and you have some sneering militant atheist belittling you all the time; maybe you deserve to be belittled, but it's not going to be a helpful approach for the latter)
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May 29, 2017 00:14
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Digiwizzard posted:Atwater circa 1981: You can achieve overwhelming electoral success when you drop the idiot race war rhetoric and focus on economics instead. atwater extended and promoted the southerern strategy, which was all about exploiting racial anger, in his case by using dogwhistles instead of saying "how bout we go a linching". it had zero to do with actually abandonding racial politics Red Dad Redemption has issued a correction as of 01:14 on May 29, 2017 |
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May 29, 2017 00:16
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Annual Prophet posted:atwater extended and promoted the southerern strategy, which was all about exploiting racial anger, in his case by using dogwhistles instead of saying "how bout we go a linching". it had zero to do with actually abandonding racial politics The whole point was that they they gave up trying to outracist Dixiecrats, because that was a vote loser everywhere but the Solid South. Instead they focused on economic policy with racist byproducts and as a result got everything they ever wanted.
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May 29, 2017 01:32
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This thread is now complete crap. So much potential you loving nerds.
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May 29, 2017 01:35
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Annual Prophet posted:a separate thread is needed for this derail (maybe it belongs in effective leftism?), but lol
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May 29, 2017 02:02
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Digiwizzard posted:The whole point was that they they gave up trying to outracist Dixiecrats, because that was a vote loser everywhere but the Solid South. Instead they focused on economic policy with racist byproducts and as a result got everything they ever wanted. Looking back over the discussion, I see where you're going, but I think a slightly better way to make that point might be to say that, by using coded language, they were able fully to exploit the racist niche occupied by the Dixiecrats before the CRA and the upheavals of the 1960s, while offering a fig leaf of sorts for northerners who would be turned off by more overt language. I was in the south at the time, and happened also to spend some time at the 1988 convention, so my personal experience, which continued long afterward, was that people, in that region at least, fully understood and were enflamed by the coded language, and for them, it really was dehumanizing a large part of the country as irredeemable sociopaths. That the willie Horton ad ran and had the effect that it did was no accident. I'm ambivalent about all of this because I think we do need to be able to see things through the eyes of others, and writing off huge numbers of people as hayseeds or worse is both immoral and a losing strategy. But at the same time, ive encountered an enormous amount of casual racism and I deeply resent both that and the constellation of circumstances surrounding it, and it makes me want to call out frankly some of the disingenuousness, bad policy, stupidity, cupidity, continued racism and other problems that seem to be in starker relief these days. Anyway, I don't think we're actually all that far apart on this, but for the hell of it, and because he was such a complete scumbag, here's an old quote from Atwater: Atwater: You start out in 1954 by saying, "friend of the family, friend of the family, friend of the family." By 1968 you can't say "friend of the family"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "friend of the family, friend of the family".
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May 29, 2017 02:19
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OhFunny posted:https://twitter.com/JoanHathaway/status/867351830854082560
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May 29, 2017 09:07
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Lol
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May 29, 2017 09:18
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OhFunny posted:https://twitter.com/JoanHathaway/status/867351830854082560 I mean honestly - what were they thinking? Did they not see the campaign? At all?
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May 29, 2017 20:29
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Samovar posted:I mean honestly - what were they thinking? Did they not see the campaign? At all? Tbf he did lie his rear end of to them.
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May 29, 2017 20:33
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Samovar posted:I mean honestly - what were they thinking? Did they not see the campaign? At all? These are the same people that get still get taken in Nigerian Email Scams.
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May 29, 2017 20:41
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Prokhor Zakharov posted:These are the same people that get still get taken in Nigerian Email Scams. and the hoarding of gold, merch from fox, merch from alex jones, fiat currency conspiracy theories, illuminati conspiracy theories, prosperity gospel conmen, and finally, voting r in lockstep
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May 29, 2017 20:47
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Samovar posted:I mean honestly - what were they thinking? Did they not see the campaign? At all? given the alternative, it's actually comforting to confirm that some portion of trump voters were just idiots not paying attention.. this thread isn't *purely* for schadenfreude
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May 29, 2017 21:08
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Dixie Cretin Seaman posted:this thread isn't *purely* for schadenfreude Wtf nonsense is this
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May 29, 2017 22:52
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While it is not 100% for schadenfreude It is 99% for it What is this weird nuanced discussion I am seeing? Psh
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May 29, 2017 22:53
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Dixie Cretin Seaman posted:given the alternative, it's actually comforting to confirm that some portion of trump voters were just idiots not paying attention.. this thread isn't *purely* for schadenfreude mods
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May 29, 2017 22:56
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Samovar posted:I mean honestly - what were they thinking? Did they not see the campaign? At all? CLINTON BAD
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May 29, 2017 23:15
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zegermans posted:CLINTON BAD 
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May 29, 2017 23:16
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Epic High Five posted:While it is not 100% for schadenfreude you can't tell me how to feel about trump voters realizing that they're going to die under trump, dad it's both, simultaneously
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May 29, 2017 23:56
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But he emails
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May 30, 2017 00:16
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Dixie Cretin Seaman posted:you can't tell me how to feel about trump voters realizing that they're going to die under trump, dad they're adults that made their own choices. gently caress em if they couldn't be bothered to consider the consequences of their actions, or to invest even a modicum of effort into researching the history of the guy they were considering. good loving lord, all these asshats were inundating every facebook feed and every email FWD:FWD:FWD with all kinds of MAGA horseshit, so I know they've somehow got internet access and the technical skill to use the internet. oh but these poor babies were lied to/played for fools/should be absolved of their responsibility for their actions! if they're so dumb that they don't possess the critical thinking skills to be responsible for their own actions, why are they allowed to vote any-loving-way? it can't be both; either they're adults that need to face the music of their own calamitous choices, or they all need to have their ability to manage their own affairs permanently revoked in the same way that any other incompetent adult has to give up their autonomy. that'd actually be a platform i could support. "every one of you chucklefucks that are willing to acknowledge that you're barely smart enough to remember to breathe and to be permanently declared legally incompetent can have your obamacare and your food stamps and your paradoxical sense of entitlement returned. if you're too proud to accept the offer, then  "
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May 30, 2017 01:27
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TORMP WORSE
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May 30, 2017 01:28
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Freaking Crumbum posted:they're adults that made their own choices. gently caress em if they couldn't be bothered to consider the consequences of their actions, or to invest even a modicum of effort into researching the history of the guy they were considering. good loving lord, all these asshats were inundating every facebook feed and every email FWD:FWD:FWD with all kinds of MAGA horseshit, so I know they've somehow got internet access and the technical skill to use the internet. Maybe we should look into depriving our political opponents the right to vote? - someone who doesn't control any lever of government
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May 30, 2017 01:48
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sssssshhhhuuuuttttttt uuuuuuiuupppppppp
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May 30, 2017 01:55
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Business Gorillas posted:Maybe we should look into depriving our political opponents the right to vote? 
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May 30, 2017 01:56
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Education is not an individual responsibility, but a collective one. If millions of people are ignorant and frightened, it's not because they have failed, but because they have been failed. "Y'all are too dumb to vote," despite being emotionally satisfying in its vindictiveness, is just as much a pile of bootstraps bullshit as "y'all are too lazy to eat."
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May 30, 2017 02:02
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Business Gorillas posted:Maybe we should look into depriving our political opponents the right to vote? - someone who doesn't control any lever of government a fool and their vote are soon parted i thought drump said "cryin cuck schumer" for a sec
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May 30, 2017 02:19
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zegermans posted:TORMP WORSE just  if you don't think my party's agenda is not only targeting the far left, and are also highly successful in that areaevery change election, we reap the ample benefits, and will again Lindsey O. Graham has issued a correction as of 02:36 on May 30, 2017 |
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May 30, 2017 02:20
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Business Gorillas posted:Maybe we should look into depriving our political opponents the right to vote? - someone who doesn't control any lever of government you mean a legislator didn't post that? Un-freaking-believable. the platitude we've seen a million times, the pretending to be quoting him but actually implying his methods borne of daydreams would be unjust in another context.... drat. take my upvote Doc Hawkins posted:Education is not an individual responsibility, but a collective one. If millions of people are ignorant and frightened, it's not because they have failed, but because they have been failed. So you're saying that you found some mean bullshit on the SA forums and you want everyone to know?
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May 30, 2017 03:08
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Business Gorillas posted:Make sure you run a candidate that can actually ignore them and the militias they create. You'll pick up rurals with $20 minimum wage and UHC though, so why bother? No, you won't, and that you believe otherwise says you're too urban to have anything in common with the people you want to reach. They won't accept UHC and a $20 minimum unless you also throw in 2nd class citizenship for every minority in the country.
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May 30, 2017 03:12
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well now that's not fair to Trumpland voters some of them just want christian sharia law
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May 30, 2017 03:23
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Business Gorillas posted:Maybe we should look into depriving our political opponents the right to vote? - someone who doesn't control any lever of government i dunno, it's been an extremely successful platform of the GOP for the last three-ish decades!
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May 30, 2017 03:27
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How is that different though? The preachers will get right back on the Curse of Hamm kick.
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May 30, 2017 03:29
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Freaking Crumbum posted:i dunno, it's been an extremely successful platform of the GOP for the last three-ish decades! you see us; they do not, that simple
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May 30, 2017 03:33
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Cobweb Heart posted:So you're saying that you found some mean bullshit on the SA forums and you want everyone to know? It's only slightly less masturbatory than that: I had an opinion and wanted people on the forums to know. I should have been more clear: I find vindictiveness against these people emotionally satisfying. I just think their idiocy is my problem - our problem - and not just their own. Freaking Crumbum posted:i dunno, it's been an extremely successful platform of the GOP for the last three-ish decades! This is also true.
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May 30, 2017 04:00
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