Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

SlothfulCobra posted:

Were the Romans big on plays? I've never really heard about anything other than the Ancient Greeks'.

They certainly had them as a major form of entertainment and some are preserved, but generally the Greeks have a better reputation among moderns. Plautus and Terence wrote some decent comedies, and Seneca had a couple of tragedies as well as a number of adaptations from the Greek. Actors were considered pretty low-end people in Rome (like, for a rich noble to hang out with actors was at least as scandalous as for him to hang out with whores) and in general the medium never seems to have achieved the same level of importance and respect that you'd see in say, classical Athens.

OwlFancier posted:

I really want the roman version of predator now.

There's something out there waiting for us...non homo est.

# ? May 26, 2017 19:13

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# ? May 13, 2024 06:01

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

skasion posted:

There's something out there waiting for us...non homo est.

I asked for the Roman version. :colbert:

# ? May 26, 2017 19:16

WoodrowSkillson: Feb 24, 2005; *Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

skasion posted:

They certainly had them as a major form of entertainment and some are preserved, but generally the Greeks have a better reputation among moderns. Plautus and Terence wrote some decent comedies, and Seneca had a couple of tragedies as well as a number of adaptations from the Greek. Actors were considered pretty low-end people in Rome (like, for a rich noble to hang out with actors was at least as scandalous as for him to hang out with whores) and in general the medium never seems to have achieved the same level of importance and respect that you'd see in say, classical Athens.

There's something out there waiting for us...non homo est.

Its important to note that despite it being scandalous, the Roman aristocracy was constantly hobnobbing with actors, gladiators, whore, and the like.

# ? May 26, 2017 19:19

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Well yeah. The fact that something was considered prohibited, taboo, or scandalous always tells us two things: that somebody was doing it, and that somebody either wasn't doing it or at least wanted to seem like they weren't.

# ? May 26, 2017 19:22

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

I also want to see a time travelling gossip rag that reports entirely on ancient roman scandals.

# ? May 26, 2017 19:25

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

My favorite instance of sideways knowledge gleaned from primary sources is a saints life proudly proclaiming that their subject didn't rape the peasant girl that every other noble would have, because God preserved his virtue by preventing him from getting an erection

# ? May 26, 2017 19:26

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

That particular saint's life is apparently full of instances of "and then he didn't act like complete scum of the earth, as would be expected of someone of his birth"

# ? May 26, 2017 19:28

Dalael: Oct 14, 2014; Hello. Yep, I still think Atlantis is Bolivia, yep, I'm still a giant idiot, yep, I'm still a huge racist. Some things never change!

glynnenstein posted:

Vanilla Ice's commercial success took place entirely in the 1990s.

Some of us remembers the horror that was his early career. How he ended up having a career after that still remains a mystery. :confused:

# ? May 26, 2017 19:52

homullus: Mar 27, 2009

SlothfulCobra posted:

Were the Romans big on plays? I've never really heard about anything other than the Ancient Greeks'.

Plautus and Terence are recognizable as comedies to us today. Roman mime, with naked actresses and sex acts performed on stage, was about as popular as you'd suppose.

# ? May 26, 2017 20:05

golden bubble: Jun 3, 2011; yospos

cheetah7071 posted:

That particular saint's life is apparently full of instances of "and then he didn't act like complete scum of the earth, as would be expected of someone of his birth"

Now I'm curious about which saint this is.

# ? May 26, 2017 20:09

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

golden bubble posted:

Now I'm curious about which saint this is.

When I get home I can look it up. I didn't read the saint's life itself, just a secondary source which cited it heavily one chapter

# ? May 26, 2017 20:14

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

homullus posted:

Roman mime, with naked actresses and sex acts performed on stage, was about as popular as you'd suppose.

I don't think that they understood mimicry very well.

# ? May 26, 2017 20:34

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

OwlFancier posted:

I don't think that they understood mimicry very well.

If less is more, just imagine how much more more could be.

# ? May 26, 2017 22:04

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Grand Fromage posted:

A single day of wandering ancient Rome with a GoPro would be the greatest archaeological treasure ever.

important loving footage of you getting punched and all the different ways you can say futue te

# ? May 26, 2017 22:11

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

SlothfulCobra posted:

Were the Romans big on plays? I've never really heard about anything other than the Ancient Greeks'.

Yep! They seem to have been particularly into comedies, though that may be just what survives.

# ? May 27, 2017 02:19

sbaldrick: Jul 19, 2006; Driven by Hate

Hogge Wild posted:

Or use it as a gunpowder magazine.

The Ventians are histories greatest assholes however

# ? May 27, 2017 03:15

Chichevache: Feb 17, 2010; One of the funniest posters in GIP.

Just not intentionally.

Grand Fromage posted:

Yep! They seem to have been particularly into comedies, though that may be just what survives.

In 2,000 years all that will remain of 21st century art are a few partial episodes of "2 and a half men". :rip:

# ? May 27, 2017 07:03

Mantis42: Jul 26, 2010

Naw, it'll be 2 Broke Girls and they'll conclude that people in our time mainly communicated by shouting sex jokes at one another.

# ? May 27, 2017 07:06

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Mantis42 posted:

Naw, it'll be 2 Broke Girls and they'll conclude that people in our time mainly communicated by shouting sex jokes at one another.

do you not?

# ? May 27, 2017 07:36

Alhazred: Feb 16, 2011

Hogge Wild posted:

Or use it as a gunpowder magazine.

During the greek rebellion against the Ottoman Empire the ottomans started to strip the Parthenon for lead they could use to make bullets. The greek were so horrified by this that they actually started to supply bullets to the ottoman soldiers.

OwlFancier posted:

I also want to see a time travelling gossip rag that reports entirely on ancient roman scandals.

Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Caesars

# ? May 27, 2017 11:54

WoodrowSkillson: Feb 24, 2005; *Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

Mantis42 posted:

Naw, it'll be 2 Broke Girls and they'll conclude that people in our time mainly communicated by shouting sex jokes at one another.

Good, Kat Dennings has a rocking pair of tits and they deserve immortality.

# ? May 27, 2017 14:53

Chichevache: Feb 17, 2010; One of the funniest posters in GIP.

Just not intentionally.

WoodrowSkillson posted:

Good, Kat Dennings has a rocking pair of tits and they deserve immortality.

That's one statue that won't suffer if the head snaps off.

# ? May 27, 2017 17:08

FreudianSlippers: Apr 12, 2010; Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!

Centuries from now someone is going to write a really dry and exhaustively detailed tome of a history book about goatse, tubgirl, and 2 girls 1 cup.

"The Age of the Anus: The Cultural History of the 21st century in Three Shock Images"

# ? May 27, 2017 21:21

Telsa Cola: Aug 19, 2011; No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface

FreudianSlippers posted:

Centuries from now someone is going to write a really dry and exhaustively detailed tome of a history book about goatse, tubgirl, and 2 girls 1 cup.

"The Age of the Anus: The Cultural History of the 21st century in Three Shock Images"

Gonna put this on my todo list when it becomes historically significant in 75ish years.

# ? May 27, 2017 21:35

Ainsley McTree: Feb 19, 2004

Mantis42 posted:

Naw, it'll be 2 Broke Girls and they'll conclude that people in our time mainly communicated by shouting sex jokes at one another.

what's latin for "that's what she said" and is it written on the walls anywhere at pompeii

# ? May 27, 2017 23:20

Loel: Jun 4, 2012; "For the Emperor."

There was a terrible noise.
There was a terrible silence.

FreudianSlippers posted:

Centuries from now someone is going to write a really dry and exhaustively detailed tome of a history book about goatse, tubgirl, and 2 girls 1 cup.

"The Age of the Anus: The Cultural History of the 21st century in Three Shock Images"

Zizek? Is that you?

# ? May 28, 2017 00:02

Bobby Digital: Sep 4, 2009

FreudianSlippers posted:

Centuries from now someone is going to write a really dry and exhaustively detailed tome of a history book about goatse, tubgirl, and 2 girls 1 cup.

"The Age of the Anus: The Cultural History of the 21st century in Three Shock Images"

I'm going to collect a bunch of first-person accounts and beat them to market with "The Age of the Anus: The Oral History"

# ? May 28, 2017 05:02

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Lol if you think the 19th to 22nd century will be remembered as anything other than "the fossil fuel age" or more simply "Those fuckers who wrecked the planet." If you're into history and not paying attention to climate change you should be because it is our million year legacy.

We are no poo poo living through a historical divide that might be a bigger deal than metallurgy. We're talking KT boundary levels of change, right now as we live and breathe.

Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 05:11 on May 28, 2017

# ? May 28, 2017 05:07

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Yeah if we survive into the far future this period is going to be as big as the beginning of agriculture. The post-industrial, computer age, climate change period is going to either destroy everything or leave a society entirely different than what humans were living in before.

# ? May 28, 2017 05:58

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

Grand Fromage posted:

Yeah if we survive into the far future this period is going to be as big as the beginning of agriculture. The post-industrial, computer age, climate change period is going to either destroy everything or leave a society entirely different than what humans were living in before.

GF, have you ever read "Eternity Road" by Jack McDevitt?

# ? May 28, 2017 06:01

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

GF, have you ever read "Eternity Road" by Jack McDevitt?

The wiki summary of this seems kind of cool. Like an American version of Riddley Walker.

# ? May 28, 2017 12:57

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

It's actually not that well written, but it's got some interesting ideas and is worthwhile for an ancient history enthusiast who wants a fun novel.

# ? May 28, 2017 16:41

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

https://twitter.com/carolemadge/status/869249701551517698

# ? May 30, 2017 08:08

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

# ? May 30, 2017 23:49

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

golden bubble posted:

Now I'm curious about which saint this is.

I found my book and it's Saint Gerald of Aurillac

# ? May 30, 2017 23:56

Dalael: Oct 14, 2014; Hello. Yep, I still think Atlantis is Bolivia, yep, I'm still a giant idiot, yep, I'm still a huge racist. Some things never change!

Long Paper ahead, and its only part of it :siren:

Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods

quote:

Abstract

Egypt, located on the isthmus of Africa, is an ideal region to study historical population dynamics due to its geographic location and documented interactions with ancient civilizations in Africa, Asia and Europe. Particularly, in the first millennium BCE Egypt endured foreign domination leading to growing numbers of foreigners living within its borders possibly contributing genetically to the local population. Here we present 90 mitochondrial genomes as well as genome-wide data sets from three individuals obtained from Egyptian mummies. The samples recovered from Middle Egypt span around 1,300 years of ancient Egyptian history from the New Kingdom to the Roman Period. Our analyses reveal that ancient Egyptians shared more ancestry with Near Easterners than present-day Egyptians, who received additional sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times. This analysis establishes ancient Egyptian mummies as a genetic source to study ancient human history and offers the perspective of deciphering Egypt�s past at a genome-wide level.

Introduction

Egypt provides a privileged setting for the study of population genetics as a result of its long and involved population history. Owing to its rich natural resources and strategic location on the crossroads of continents, the country had intense, historically documented interactions with important cultural areas in Africa, Asia and Europe ranging from international trade to foreign invasion and rule. Especially from the first millennium BCE onwards, Egypt saw a growing number of foreigners living and working within its borders and was subjected to an almost continuous sequence of foreign domination by Libyans, Assyrians, Kushites, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Turks and Brits. The movement of people, goods and ideas throughout Egypt�s long history has given rise to an intricate cultural and genetic exchange and entanglement, involving themes that resonate strongly with contemporary discourse on integration and globalization1.

Until now the study of Egypt�s population history has been largely based on literary and archaeological sources and inferences drawn from genetic diversity in present-day Egyptians. Both approaches have made crucial contributions to the debate but are not without limitations. On the one hand, the interpretation of literary and archaeological sources is often complicated by selective representation and preservation and the fact that markers of foreign identity, such as, for example, Greek or Latin names and ethnics, quickly became �status symbols� and were adopted by natives and foreigners alike2,3,4. On the other hand, results obtained by modern genetic studies are based on extrapolations from their modern data sets and make critical assumptions on population structure and time5. The analysis of ancient DNA provides a crucial piece in the puzzle of Egypt�s population history and can serve as an important corrective or supplement to inferences drawn from literary, archaeological and modern DNA data.

Despite their potential to address research questions relating to population migrations, genetic studies of ancient Egyptian mummies and skeletal material remain rare, although research on Egyptian mummies helped to pioneer the field of ancient DNA research with the first reported retrieval of ancient human DNA6. Since then progress has been challenged by issues surrounding the authentication of the retrieved DNA and potential contaminations inherent to the direct PCR method7. Furthermore, the potential DNA preservation in Egyptian mummies was met with general scepticism: The hot Egyptian climate, the high humidity levels in many tombs and some of the chemicals used in mummification techniques, in particular sodium carbonate, all contribute to DNA degradation and are thought to render the long-term survival of DNA in Egyptian mummies improbable8. Experimental DNA decay rates in papyri have also been used to question the validity and general reliability of reported ancient Egyptian DNA results9. The recent genetic analysis of King Tutankhamun�s family10is one of the latest controversial studies that gave rise to this extensive scholarly debate11. New data obtained with high-throughput sequencing methods have the potential to overcome the methodological and contamination issues surrounding the PCR method and could help settle the debate surrounding ancient Egyptian DNA preservation8. However, the first high-throughput sequences obtained from ancient Egyptian mummies12�were not supported by rigorous authenticity and contamination tests.

Here, we provide the first reliable data set obtained from ancient Egyptians using high-throughput DNA sequencing methods and assessing the authenticity of the retrieved ancient DNA via characteristic nucleotide misincorporation patterns13,14�and statistical contamination tests15�to ensure the ancient origin of our obtained data.

By directly studying ancient DNA from ancient Egyptians, we can test previous hypotheses drawn from analysing modern Egyptian DNA, such as recent admixture from populations with sub-Saharan16�and non-African ancestries17, attributed to trans-Saharan slave trade and the Islamic expansion, respectively. On a more local scale, we aim to study changes and continuities in the genetic makeup of the ancient inhabitants of the Abusir el-Meleq community (Fig. 1), since all sampled remains derive from this community in Middle Egypt and have been radiocarbon dated to the late New Kingdom to the Roman Period (cal. 1388BCE�426CE,�Supplementary Data 1). In particular, we seek to determine if the inhabitants of this settlement were affected at the genetic level by foreign conquest and domination, especially during the Ptolemaic (332�30BCE) and Roman (30BCE�395CE) Periods.

Results

Samples and anthropological analysis

All 166 samples from 151 mummified individuals (for details of the 90 individuals included in the later analysis, see�Supplementary Data 1) used in this study were taken from two anthropological collections at the University of T�bingen and the Felix von Luschan Skull Collection, which is now kept at the Museum of Prehistory of the Staatliche Museen zu Berlin, Stiftung preu�ischer Kulturbesitz (individuals: S3533, S3536, S3544, S3552, S3578, S3610). According to the radiocarbon dates (Supplementary Data 1, see also ref.�18), the samples can be grouped into three time periods: Pre-Ptolemaic (New Kingdom, Third Intermediate Period and Late Period), Ptolemaic and Roman Period. During their conservation in the T�bingen and Berlin collections the remains underwent different treatments: some were preserved in their original mummified state, while others were macerated for anthropological analysis or due to conservation problems19.

In most cases, non-macerated mummy heads still have much of their soft tissue preserved. Some of the remains (individuals analysed in our study: 1543, 1547, 1565, 1577, 1611) have traces of gold leaf near the mouth and the cheekbone, which is characteristic for mummies from the Ptolemaic Period onwards20. In most cases the brain was removed and the excerebration route was highly likely transnasal, resulting in visible defects on the cribriform plate (for the individuals analysed in our study, see�Supplementary Data 1). In summary, the excellent bone preservation and the more or less good soft tissue preservation made a wide-ranging analysis possible19.

Recently, various studies were conducted on these remains, including a study on ancient Egyptian embalming resins, two ancient DNA studies and an anthropological examination of the macerated crania12,18,19,21. While the possibilities of a demographic reconstruction based on anthropological finds are naturally limited�due to incompleteness of the assemblage, the following anthropological observations were made on the assemblage: For a first assessment, computer tomographic scans of 30 mummies with soft tissue preservation were produced to describe sex (Supplementary Data 1), age at death (Supplementary Data 1) and the macroscopic health status; the six macerated mummies were examined directly. It is notable that most of the individuals are early and late adults, and that subadult individuals are underrepresented (Supplementary Data 1). It is possible that the sample�s demographic profile is the result of different burial treatments for adults and subadults, but it seems more likely that it is due to collection bias, with collectors favouring intact adult skulls. Almost all of the teeth show significant dentine exposure up to a total loss of the crown. This abrasion pattern is likely due to the food and food preparation itself, in particular for a cereal-rich diet containing a high proportion of coarse sandy particles. These particles act to abrade the dental tissues, allowing bacteria to penetrate the interior of the teeth. As a result, carious lesions or periapical processes appear in the analysed individuals (Supplementary Data 1)19.

For the DNA analysis we sampled different tissues (bone, soft tissue, tooth), macerated and non-macerated, to test for human DNA preservation.

Processing and sequencing of the samples

(See rest of paper for a lot more)

I didnt quote the whole thing because it is very long and I'm phone posting but this is worth a read.

Dalael fucked around with this message at 12:05 on May 31, 2017

# ? May 31, 2017 12:01

GoutPatrol: Oct 17, 2009; *Stupid Babby*

Is this going to make alot of people mad about something?

# ? May 31, 2017 13:53

Dalael: Oct 14, 2014; Hello. Yep, I still think Atlantis is Bolivia, yep, I'm still a giant idiot, yep, I'm still a huge racist. Some things never change!

GoutPatrol posted:

Is this going to make alot of people mad about something?

Possibly? Probably?

# ? May 31, 2017 15:08

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

GoutPatrol posted:

Is this going to make alot of people mad about something?

There aren't that many Afrocentrists.

# ? May 31, 2017 17:11

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# ? May 13, 2024 06:01

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

There aren't that many Afrocentrists.

Well, if I'm understanding it it really fucks with the whole "black egypt" thing and the people who believe that believe VERY strongly in it.

# ? May 31, 2017 17:54

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