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It's the Master. She's not having a change of heart.
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Jun 4, 2017 07:03
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So an act then. got it
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Jun 4, 2017 07:05
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n4 posted:I don't really understand why Missy is becoming good/having regrets about being evil/etc. I'd assume it's an act but the Doctor seems to take it seriously. Did I miss something that led to her change of heart? It kinda just seems like she said she would be to bargain with the Doctor and for some reason she's sincerely having a change of heart but that doesn't make any sense. I might be remembering my Classic Who wrong, but The Master being completely evil and insane is mostly only the John Simm Master. The Master that fought with the Third Doctor was more of a swashbuckling prankster, not a total sociopath. So the idea that The Master could be capable of some type of remorse is not totally out of character.
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Jun 4, 2017 07:06
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glowing-fish posted:I might be remembering my Classic Who wrong, but The Master being completely evil and insane is mostly only the John Simm Master. The Master that fought with the Third Doctor was more of a swashbuckling prankster, not a total sociopath. So the idea that The Master could be capable of some type of remorse is not totally out of character. Oh you are misremembering. The Master is capable of putting on the airs of an affable person, positively charming when he wants to be. The reality is the Corpse Master. That is who he truly is, laid bare. An ugly, hateful monster, who only cares for his own survival above all else. His own ambition, his own ideals, his own morality. He is a sociopath in the truest sense, and would no more seriously mourn the Doctor's death than he would the next person he kills at random for no good reason. The Master is the Master through out the regenerations, man or woman. It's easy to distance The Master as she is now from who she was, both for her gender and for her nickname, but don't let either fool you. The Master exists for her own self alone. If she thinks playing nice with the Doctor would accomplish this, all the better. Never forget, she, at her genuinely nicest, turned God knows how many into cyborg soldiers for the Doctor to command, and also has tried to talk the Doctor into killing his companion twice over now. That's JUST her. She's still the same entity that accidentally killed half of the universe and then held the rest at ransom.
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Jun 4, 2017 07:20
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n4 posted:I don't really understand why Missy is becoming good/having regrets about being evil/etc. I'd assume it's an act but the Doctor seems to take it seriously. Did I miss something that led to her change of heart? It kinda just seems like she said she would be to bargain with the Doctor and for some reason she's sincerely having a change of heart but that doesn't make any sense. It is almost certainly an act. The Doctor knows this. The Doctor hopes that change is possible, and he has 1000 years to try.
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Jun 4, 2017 07:26
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Pretty lackluster, but not an unwatchable mess so it's really a wash. I don't understand the thought process behind stretching this paper-thin premise into a three parter, especially when we've already seen similar schemes in the revival (Silence, Simm Master). I still think this is Capaldi's strongest season, if only because we haven't had a Forest or Zygon level disaster yet.
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Jun 4, 2017 07:40
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"I mean, you had had free will, and look at what you did with it? Worse than that you had History. History was saying to you, 'Look I've got some examples of fascism for you to look at.' No? Fundamentalism? No? Okay, you carry on." While likely not even considered by the writer, I thought it a bit awkward that the Doctor's not very subtle speech about choosing safety via fascism was directed at a gay woman of color. I mean, if Bill was an old, white male, it'd be more appropriate.
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Jun 4, 2017 07:46
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Cleretic posted:I actually thought that was an interesting ending, and didn't personally interpret it as 'power of love' bullshit. It's a clever little play on how they defined the Monk's power as explained through the Missy scene; they infect people's memories, they couldn't do anything with Bill's image of her mother not because of love, but because it's not a memory. Bill remembers jack poo poo about her mother, every single thought about her is an out-and-out fabrication and she knows it. Since that's not the part of her brain that they can actually do anything with, she can overpower them with it. "Bill has an imaginary friend version of her mum" was something that was introduced this episode though, in a way that didn't really make sense... solely so it could explain that ending which I still didn't find interesting or satisfying. If you're defining the monk's ability as strictly related to memory (and any interference blocks them) then anything spontaneous or imaginative could have defeated them. Evil alien overlords defeated by freestyle rap. Alien invasion thwarted by improv comedy routine. And I'm not sure why that set-up was even necessary. "Of course, she's the anchor! Her thoughts take priority at influencing the broadcast!" seems like all the technobabble necessary to explain why Bill could overpower the broadcast when The Doctor could not. Also if your episode hits close to real world issues (as mentioned earlier, it's not even a metaphor) I think you need to have something interesting to say. "Fake news is defeated by an even tighter fabrication" or "Fake news is defeated by white noise uselessness" seem like useless messages, whilst "Fake news is defeated by actually getting to the real source" might have some value to it. AndyElusive posted:Before the fake out, 12 was really quite good at being a bad guy collaborator. I agree on this, but it just left me MORE annoyed by the fake out. Bill vs The Doctor was an interesting scene, until you discover it's all a sham and basically meant nothing. The Doctor brainwashed into being a figurehead puppet facist leader is an interesting premise.. that it drops almost immediately to make the monks the sole enemy and they barely did anything the whole episode. I also agree with people saying almost nothing happened. The Doctor tricks bill into shooting him for no reason, then talks to missy but doesn't like her plan so decides "gently caress it we'll just charge into their base and hope for the best". Luckily it turns out there's only 12 of the monks, and it just so happens that they're weak to guns. And they also can't predict poo poo either. Elite fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Jun 4, 2017 |
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Jun 4, 2017 08:53
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Elite posted:"Bill has an imaginary friend version of her mum" was something that was introduced this episode though, in a way that didn't really make sense... Not really, it was sort of a thing in the first episode. quote:BILL: That's not true. You go places, I can tell. My mum always said, 'With some people you can smell the wind in their clothes.'
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Jun 4, 2017 09:01
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Even if the Master isn't putting on an act (which she almost certainly is), 70+ years of sitting in a room that only got a piano in the last couple months probably has her so bored that she's turned introspective and gotten a bit weepy. The very second she's outside and free again she'll immediately cut loose, right now she's choosing to stay imprisoned whether out of some sense of duty, pigheaded stubbornness* or part of a hyper long-term trolling of the Doctor. I did love her pointing out that all of the Doctor's extremely careful procedures/locks are only keeping her locked up because she chooses to let them. * I'd like to think it's definitely this one.
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Jun 4, 2017 09:05
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Box of Bunnies posted:Not really, it was sort of a thing in the first episode. It was magnified kinda heavily in this episode, but that was deliberately set up as a coping mechanism for her, a way to stave off the mind control. Bill's clearly been kinda deifying her in her mind, given her crying out to her mom in Oxygen. In a more conventional show, all this would definitely be leading up to Bill meeting her mom only to find out she's nothing like how she imagined. I'd say that's still likely here, but unless Bill's around for next season I doubt it.
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Jun 4, 2017 09:45
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Wait, how did Bill survive direct exposure to the transmitter?
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Jun 4, 2017 12:00
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fractalairduct posted:Wait, how did Bill survive direct exposure to the transmitter? The monks weren't willing to kill her, because that would break the link. Game over.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:03
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man I'm of two thoughts of it. for starters. I remember back to the sea devils that before everything happened, we had a real scene between the master and the doctor. You could tell that in spite of everything they cared for each other. Kudos between Pertree and Delgardo. Then the master went into his mad scheme. I also kinda hope that after all is said and done, missy isn't the master because it makes it easier to assume she might be able to be reformed.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:05
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Facebook Aunt posted:It is almost certainly an act. The Doctor knows this. The Doctor hopes that change is possible, and he has 1000 years to try. It will most likely lead to a betrayal where the dialog will go something like this. Missy: Ha! Doctorkins, I never really cared about getting better and now I'm going to betray you. Doctor: Oh no. Missy: Oh yes. Doctor: Oh no! Missy: Oh yes, darling! Doctor: I was afraid of that. That's why I went back 2 months ago and re-wrote the base code of the plutonic equalizer to nullify the effects of your temporalmogrifier. Missy: I knew you would do that, so I went back a month ago and updated the base code to make it amplify the effects. I'll be unstoppable. Doctor: Oh, really? Without this? *holds up device with lights on it and some wires sticking out* See, I knew that you knew that I would try and stop you so I took the added precaution of removing the batteries.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:23
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Elite posted:The Doctor tricking Bill into shooting him felt dumb and unnecessary, especially with everyone laughing about it. I almost expected him to say "it's just a prank bro!" to explain it. Rick and Morty have a great bit about this kind of thing
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Jun 4, 2017 12:26
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I liked the scene where Bill confronted the Doctor and I'm disappointed it was entirely fake. I assumed he'd just been brainwashed somewhat. Yeah, I assumed it was him struggling with brainwashing and needing a regeneration-reset from a traumatic but not completely fatal injury. What we got made no sense.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:27
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Jerusalem posted:Even if the Master isn't putting on an act (which she almost certainly is), 70+ years of sitting in a room that only got a piano in the last couple months probably has her so bored that she's turned introspective and gotten a bit weepy. The very second she's outside and free again she'll immediately cut loose, right now she's choosing to stay imprisoned whether out of some sense of duty, pigheaded stubbornness* or part of a hyper long-term trolling of the Doctor. I did love her pointing out that all of the Doctor's extremely careful procedures/locks are only keeping her locked up because she chooses to let them. I agree. "You don't think I can seriously consider being good? I'll show you!". Then when she inevitably turns on the Doctor it's not because she is confused, or mad, it's because she genuinely knows what being good is like and just chooses evil as more fun.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:41
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Turmoil posted:It will most likely lead to a betrayal where the dialog will go something like this. I can get on board with this as the final Moffat episode. His last televised story is a remake of his first one.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:50
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I could maybe, maybe, see a Missy redemption arc only working if it isn't a redemption - just that she's done every evil scheme imaginable in her varying forms and bodies and after hundreds of years of trolling the Doctor she's just grown bored of it. She can keep killing his little pets forever but eventually she'll run out of interesting or funny ways of doing it. The tears are genuine but it isn't remorse - it's a realisation of wasted eons, squandering all of her regenerations pissing about with the Doctor until she's just run out of ideas, but only getting in the way of what the Doctor wants, never truly living for herself and what she wants... and now she doesn't know what to do with herself. She could kill someone, betray the Doctor again, but she's done that before and it's getting stale. Her existence has become Stale and that is what's causing her real discomfort.
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Jun 4, 2017 13:10
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Delgado: Charming psychopath. Ainley: Psychopath pretending to be charming.
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Jun 4, 2017 13:23
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CGI Snake: The last honest man in creation.
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Jun 4, 2017 13:35
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Since when can the Doctor fake regenerating? I know he can call it "on demand" a bit, but that seemed to be a lot more. A theory raised on Whovians was that due to Missy having defeated the monks before that they're actually working for her - to get her out of the vault, to take over the earth, to get the Doctor to kill Bill, or maybe all of the above. IT could have potential, but the monks characterisation so far has been so threadbare that if and when they return in the finale I doubt it'll land like the writers want it to.
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Jun 4, 2017 13:39
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Jerusalem posted:Even if the Master isn't putting on an act (which she almost certainly is), 70+ years of sitting in a room that only got a piano in the last couple months probably has her so bored that she's turned introspective and gotten a bit weepy. The very second she's outside and free again she'll immediately cut loose, right now she's choosing to stay imprisoned whether out of some sense of duty, pigheaded stubbornness* or part of a hyper long-term trolling of the Doctor. I did love her pointing out that all of the Doctor's extremely careful procedures/locks are only keeping her locked up because she chooses to let them. For all that I didn't like the plot, this episode had some good lines, and "I once made a gun out of leaves" was one I enjoyed. MysticalMachineGun posted:Since when can the Doctor fake regenerating? I know he can call it "on demand" a bit, but that seemed to be a lot more. Also, Bill doesn't know about regenerating, so that little flare is basically entirely for the audience's benefit. Unless the Doctor just told her about it offscreen and it's assumed that by know she knows everything Clara did before her. 2house2fly fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Jun 4, 2017 |
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Jun 4, 2017 14:18
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MysticalMachineGun posted:Since when can the Doctor fake regenerating? I know he can call it "on demand" a bit, but that seemed to be a lot more. I think he's been able to use regeneration power on demand since he healed River in the angels episode in series 7.
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Jun 4, 2017 14:23
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Turmoil posted:It will most likely lead to a betrayal where the dialog will go something like this. Bill and Nardol's Excellent Adventure.
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Jun 4, 2017 14:24
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Romana burned through four regenerations in the space of ten minutes, I seem to remember.
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Jun 4, 2017 15:52
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Also uh Why did the Doctor refer to himself and the Master as the Last of the Time Lords? Did something happen to Galifrey again when we weren't looking?
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Jun 4, 2017 16:00
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Burkion posted:Also uh Well, for a few hundred years they thought they were. Old habits die hard.
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Jun 4, 2017 16:17
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In the current Lore he should be the First Of The Time Lords, since Gallifrey being at the end of the universe means it doesn't exist yet.
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Jun 4, 2017 16:21
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2house2fly posted:In the current Lore he should be the First Of The Time Lords, since Gallifrey being at the end of the universe means it doesn't exist yet. I don't think you quite grasp time travel if that's your logic. Also Gallifrey is hiding, so going around saying they're the Last of the Time Lords keeps people from going looking for it. All of creation remembers the Time War. And all of creation would not rest until they really burned Gallifrey if they knew it still existed.
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Jun 4, 2017 16:55
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Well that was a whole lot of nothing. Three episodes for the dullest alien dictatorship ever televised.
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Jun 4, 2017 17:10
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Burkion posted:I was watching with a goon friend of mine, Seer235, and commented that it's a shame the bad guys aren't immune to bullets anymore. The Brigadier would have been so much happier if he had to deal with these chucklefucks. "Zombie chap, 5 rounds rapid!" n4 posted:I don't really understand why Missy is becoming good/having regrets about being evil/etc. I'd assume it's an act but the Doctor seems to take it seriously. Did I miss something that led to her change of heart? It kinda just seems like she said she would be to bargain with the Doctor and for some reason she's sincerely having a change of heart but that doesn't make any sense. It's a trick, but the Doctor wants to believe because of their lifelong frenemy history. SimplyCosmic posted:While likely not even considered by the writer, I thought it a bit awkward that the Doctor's not very subtle speech about choosing safety via fascism was directed at a gay woman of color. I mean, if Bill was an old, white male, it'd be more appropriate. Yes, because literally only old white men could ever choose fascism. TinTower posted:Romana burned through four regenerations in the space of ten minutes, I seem to remember. Actually RTD and Moffat have sorta retconned this with both 10 and 11 using regeneration energy to heal themselves and restore youth and vitality for a limited time before the actual regeneration--it establishes the idea that there's a plasticity to regeneration during the moment, which would have allowed Romana to "try on" a few different bodies before settling on one without "wasting" regenerations.
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Jun 4, 2017 17:46
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I like the idea of regeneration being an energy that's in the body and there's enough of it to get a full do-over 12 times, but you can also do little things like fixing up your friend's hand or putting on a bizarre grotesque pretend show to make sure your friend isn't brainwashed E: wait if Bill does know about regeneration then what exactly was she hoping to achieve by shooting him? He comes back to life as Jim Broadbent and still doesn't want to help her, so she shoots him again, he rises again as Hugh Grant and the same thing happens, then he comes back as Joanna Lumley and is finally persuaded? 2house2fly fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Jun 4, 2017 |
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Jun 4, 2017 18:12
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No idea if it's true but I get the impression that the last 3 stories were separate until Moffat had a bright idea that the simulation guys in that one could be the 'consent' guys in the other one and then they could be the conqueror guys in this one too and it all fits, it's like poetry etc.
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Jun 4, 2017 18:23
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Someone consents in the simulation: "That was for an achievement. Achievements are not consent!" *Whole profile gets erased from the server*
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Jun 4, 2017 18:32
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Unkempt posted:No idea if it's true but I get the impression that the last 3 stories were separate until Moffat had a bright idea that the simulation guys in that one could be the 'consent' guys in the other one and then they could be the conqueror guys in this one too and it all fits, it's like poetry etc. No. It was always designed as a three parter. In fact in earlier outlines for the series the alternative reality played a much bigger role and led into the finale. Also... Missy is great but I'm hoping she gets a moment to show how horrible she is. Every Master has a moment where the mask slips and see the terrible person underneath and Missy hasn't had that yet. So much so that even the Doctor seems to buying into the act. Mainly I hope we get this moment because Michelle would knock it out of the park and she's leaving this year.
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Jun 4, 2017 18:33
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PriorMarcus posted:No. It was always designed as a three parter. In fact in earlier outlines for the series the alternative reality played a much bigger role and led into the finale. She did have that moment in the last series where Clara says something like "Don't try to tell me you've gone good" and she immediately disintegrates a guard to prove a point. "Oh, what a shame! Lovely man, wife at home with a child on the way NO I HAVEN'T TURNED ~GUD~!"
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Jun 4, 2017 18:54
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Patrick Ness, who created and wrote Class, is done with the show. That's that, probably.
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Jun 4, 2017 19:56
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I really dig the tattered blue coat Capaldi wore in the last episode. The costuming for this season has been excellent.
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Jun 4, 2017 19:58
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