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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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| B |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
| M |
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65 | 21.52% |
| Total: | 229 votes | ||
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steinrokkan posted:It's OK to actively support the death of those less fortunate than you as long as you abstract the mechanism of their death to something neat and rationalized - dignified, like the market. Thus the moderate Republican of the Romney camp is much more respectable than a redneck, despite having infinitely more blood on his hands. I like the implicit statement here that it's more moral to kill people abstractly so long as you're sufficiently rural, or alternately the implicit statement that you're once again talking out your rear end about the USA despite knowing very little about it. But, since you're willing to spout about how rural people are more authentic than urban people, certain people will confuse you for someone who knows what the hell he's talking about.
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Jun 4, 2017 20:23
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But there is no common ground between a cut taxes middle class fygm Republican and a leftist. Policy that is designed to help poor people will also help poor racist rurals though.
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Jun 4, 2017 20:38
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flashman posted:But there is no common ground between a cut taxes middle class fygm Republican and a leftist. Policy that is designed to help poor people will also help poor racist rurals though. Leftist policy would also help the middle-class Republican, because middle-class people are still proletarians. So that's not actually a response to the question. I mean, you did offer an unintentional response that racism doesn't matter, but I'll ignore that.
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Jun 4, 2017 20:41
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Brainiac Five posted:Leftist policy would also help the middle-class Republican, because middle-class people are still proletarians. So that's not actually a response to the question. No they're not, per the definition of middle class. Lawyers, doctors, small business owners, etc, etc, are by definition not the working class
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Jun 4, 2017 20:45
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icantfindaname posted:No they're not, per the definition of middle class. Lawyers, doctors, small business owners, etc, etc, are by definition not the working class
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Jun 4, 2017 20:48
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icantfindaname posted:No they're not, per the definition of middle class. Lawyers, doctors, small business owners, etc, etc, are by definition not the working class Those three aren't usually middle-class, bucko, but lawyers and doctors aren't bourgeois by Marxian standards. They are by the standards of bloodthirsty little college kids, but y'all don't got the guts to go massacring people for having graduate degrees in any case. Here's a hint: the majority of people in the middle class don't rent out capital in order to survive, they sell their labor power to do so.
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Jun 4, 2017 20:53
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Brainiac Five posted:Those three aren't usually middle-class, bucko, but lawyers and doctors aren't bourgeois by Marxian standards. They are by the standards of bloodthirsty little college kids, but y'all don't got the guts to go massacring people for having graduate degrees in any case. The self-employed are by definition the petty bougeois, they do not sell their labor, they are engaged in production with capital they own themselves
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Jun 4, 2017 20:56
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Brainiac Five posted:Leftist policy would also help the middle-class Republican, because middle-class people are still proletarians. So that's not actually a response to the question. From the article "Who are they? Romney-Clinton voters are, generally speaking, college-educated suburban professionals: lawyers, doctors and businesspeople." These are the people you are expecting to help with left policy?
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Jun 4, 2017 20:56
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Rent-A-Cop posted:No one but doctors thinks doctors are middle class. flashman posted:From the article "Who are they? Romney-Clinton voters are, generally speaking, college-educated suburban professionals: lawyers, doctors and businesspeople." Nobody but doctors and Democratic Party staffers and strategists icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jun 4, 2017 |
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Jun 4, 2017 20:57
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icantfindaname posted:The self-employed are by definition the petty bougeois, they do not sell their labor, they are engaged in production with capital they own themselves
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Jun 4, 2017 21:00
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icantfindaname posted:The self-employed are by definition the petty bougeois, they do not sell their labor, they are engaged in production with capital they own themselves The majority of people in the middle class as that term is used colloquially, not the definition you cooked up to avoid having to concede anything, are not self-employed. 50% of doctors, for that matter, are not self-employed and are Marxian proletarians. flashman posted:From the article "Who are they? Romney-Clinton voters are, generally speaking, college-educated suburban professionals: lawyers, doctors and businesspeople." These are the people that would inevitably be helped by left-wing policy, since they are not part of the bourgeoisie. Unless you think leftism is about butchering doctors to redistribute their medical school debts..? I mean, if y'all want to use a definition of "middle-class" that refers solely to self-employed people, that means a substantial number of besuited suburban Republicans are now lower-class/working-class, which you should be willing to acknowledge.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:03
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Brainiac Five posted:The majority of people in the middle class as that term is used colloquially, not the definition you cooked up to avoid having to concede anything, are not self-employed. 50% of doctors, for that matter, are not self-employed and are Marxian proletarians. Yeah man the previously Republican voting lawyers and doctors and small business owners are all about minimum wage hikes and higher taxes and social spending you are right I bow before your intellect. The Democrats tent just became the 99 percent this is amazing we will never lose again!
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Jun 4, 2017 21:08
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flashman posted:Yeah man the previously Republican voting lawyers and doctors and small business owners are all about minimum wage hikes and higher taxes and social spending you are right I bow before your intellect. Do you know what the word "helped" means? Because it seems like you don't.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:09
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I don't think anyone is asking for a compromise on principles. Look where triangulation got us. But you get votes wherever you can, by pushing ideology. The belief that white workers are all genetically racist, and that clearly chasing after the suburbs for the umpteenth time is going to produce results now, is just pure ideology. In order to push class interest, its important that the party be composed of and have the support of the class they want to represent.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:11
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Brainiac Five posted:Do you know what the word "helped" means? Because it seems like you don't. I mean do you think American leftist policy is going to be full communism ?
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Jun 4, 2017 21:11
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flashman posted:I mean do you think American leftist policy is going to be full communism ? So your "leftism" is not anti-capitalist in any meaningful way? rudatron posted:I don't think anyone is asking for a compromise on principles. Look where triangulation got us. But you get votes wherever you can, by pushing ideology. The belief that white workers are all genetically racist, and that clearly chasing after the suburbs for the umpteenth time is going to produce results now, is just pure ideology. In order to push class interest, its important that the party be composed of and have the support of the class they want to represent. The guy who blamed black people and anti-white racism for Donald Trump's election doesn't believe in looking at racism structurally. What a surprise.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:13
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I didn't do either of those things, buddy, I blamed and still blame idpol.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:15
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rudatron posted:I didn't do either of those things, buddy, I blamed and still blame idpol. Okay, you blame antiracism, feminism, and LGBT liberation. Glad to see that your ideology is apparently the real leftism.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:17
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Brainiac Five posted:So your "leftism" is not anti-capitalist in any meaningful way? When you are talking about the Democratic party in the United States and leftist policy it refers to higher minimum wage, some form of UHC etc. Not to a Marxist revolution....
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Jun 4, 2017 21:18
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rudatron posted:its important that the party be composed of and have the support of the class they want to represent. It already is. Minorities, the poor, and the middle class making under $50k simply haven't figured it out yet that the Democratic Party isn't their party anymore- but gladly accepts their votes and donations.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:18
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flashman posted:When you are talking about the Democratic party in the United States and leftist policy it refers to higher minimum wage, some form of UHC etc. Not to a Marxist revolution.... So your "leftism" is not anti-capitalist in any meaningful way? Mister Facetious posted:It already is. Minorities, the poor, and the middle class making under $50k simply haven't figured it out yet that the Democratic Party isn't their party anymore- but gladly accepts their votes and donations. Ah yes, the ol' "black people are too stupid to know what's good for them" saw.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:20
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Brainiac Five posted:So your "leftism" is not anti-capitalist in any meaningful way? Everyone that isn't a university educated, white collar professional making over $50k a year, actually; not just blacks. Pay attention to what I typed, not what you want to read.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:23
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Mister Facetious posted:Everyone that isn't a university educated, white collar professional making over $50k a year, actually. Not just blacks. Pay attention to what I typed, not what you want to read. Okay, so everyone is too stupid to think for themselves except Bernie diehards. Sounds like a truly liberating ideology. Also, "blacks"? Really?
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Jun 4, 2017 21:24
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Idpol isn't leftism, its virtue-politics liberalism masquerading as radicalism. It had nothing interesring to say, no insight to give, and its not interested in emancipation, or mass politics. It is made for exactly one purpose - justifying a smug superiority complex. Anyone interested in the liberation struggle, against oppression along class, racial, gender & sexual orientation lined, should recognize it as destructive/counter productive. Sadly, many do not.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:25
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Brainiac Five posted:Okay, so everyone is too stupid to think for themselves except Bernie diehards. Sounds like a truly liberating ideology. I'm Canadian. We don't say, "African Canadians" or "African Americans".
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Jun 4, 2017 21:28
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Brainiac Five posted:So your "leftism" is not anti-capitalist in any meaningful way? America isn't going to reject capitalism anytime soon, we might as well try to make it the best version of it we can.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:29
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Mister Facetious posted:I'm Canadian. We don't say, "African Canadians" or "African Americans". So why are you acting as if you're an American, fuckface? Furthermore, the appropriate term would be black people. WampaLord posted:America isn't going to reject capitalism anytime soon, we might as well try to make it the best version of it we can. So what differentiates you from liberals again? Because you're advocating pragmatic incrementalism and rejecting anti-capitalism... rudatron posted:Idpol isn't leftism, its virtue-politics liberalism masquerading as radicalism. It had nothing interesring to say, no insight to give, and its not interested in emancipation, or mass politics. It is made for exactly one purpose - justifying a smug superiority complex. I'd ask you to define "identity politics" but you'd take 10000 words and not even say anything in the process.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:33
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Brainiac Five posted:So why are you acting as if you're an American, fuckface? Furthermore, the appropriate term would be black people. I never said I was. Doesn't forbid me from engaging in the conversation.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:34
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Mister Facetious posted:I'm Canadian. We don't say, "African Canadians" or "African Americans". That's fine, may I suggest instead saying "black people/citizens/Canadians/etc"? e: ugh, beaten by b5, my labor organizing ancestors cry out in shame
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Jun 4, 2017 21:35
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Brainiac Five posted:So your "leftism" is not anti-capitalist in any meaningful way? The most realistic expectations of complete victory for the American left at this time is maybe Nordic model social democracy.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:41
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Mister Facetious posted:I never said I was. Doesn't forbid me from engaging in the conversation. It is, however, creepy to talk as if Americans are mentally inferior to Canadians and intimate that you must rule over us.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:42
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Mister Facetious posted:I'm Canadian. We don't say, "African Canadians" or "African Americans". Speaking as a fellow Canadian, we do tend to add "people" at the end of "black" when we don't want to come across as assholes, though.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:42
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Brainiac Five posted:So what differentiates you from liberals again? Because you're advocating pragmatic incrementalism and rejecting anti-capitalism... flashman posted:The most realistic expectations of complete victory for the American left at this time is maybe Nordic model social democracy. "Liberals" are the ones bitching about a $15 minimum wage and Medicare for All, whereas I embrace those solutions.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:42
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Brainiac Five posted:It is, however, creepy to talk as if Americans are mentally inferior to Canadians and intimate that you must rule over us. Our education system is pretty bad to be fair Also being annexed by canada would be a net upgrade imo
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Jun 4, 2017 21:42
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WampaLord posted:"Liberals" are the ones bitching about a $15 minimum wage and Medicare for All, whereas I embrace those solutions. So you embrace a solution to the health-care crisis that only pays for about half of medical expenses, eh? In fact, it would probably worsen healthcare, given that there are almost three times as many people on Medicaid as uninsured currently, and would still be 1.5 times as many under AHCA. Anyways, you can find plenty of self-professed liberals that embrace such incremental changes as higher minimum wages and single-payer health insurance (many of them even smart enough not to fall for "Medicare for All"), so I guess they're self-deluded? Or maybe you've seized on "leftist" because you're attempting to destroy actual leftism in the USA and prevent it from ever achieving anything. NewForumSoftware posted:Our education system is pretty bad to be fair Okay, lickspittle.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:48
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Brainiac Five posted:It is, however, creepy to talk as if Americans are mentally inferior to Canadians and intimate that you must rule over us. Wait, what? How did figure tha- I mean...
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Jun 4, 2017 21:50
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Brainiac Five posted:I'd ask you to define "identity politics" but you'd take 10000 words and not even say anything in the process. "liberalism" quote mao's combat liberalism
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Jun 4, 2017 21:51
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Falstaff posted:Speaking as a fellow Canadian, we do tend to add "people" at the end of "black" when we don't want to come across as assholes, though. I thought it was the other way around. Also, "People of Color" is deliberately divisive, and loving repugnant.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:51
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Mister Facetious posted:Wait, what? You're saying that you've got it figured out where Americans don't, buddy, and they need to follow your proclamations. Mister Facetious posted:I thought it was the other way around. Ah, if only nonwhite people were less "divisive", racism wouldn't happen.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:52
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Brainiac Five posted:So you embrace a solution to the health-care crisis that only pays for about half of medical expenses, eh? In fact, it would probably worsen healthcare, given that there are almost three times as many people on Medicaid as uninsured currently, and would still be 1.5 times as many under AHCA.  I'm not even going to engage with your usual gimmick of making up your own definition of words. I don't really call myself a "leftist" to be honest, so I'm not sure what you're even going for here. I'm just willing to embrace much more radical solutions than the "very serious people" think up.
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Jun 4, 2017 21:55
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