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Brainiac Five posted:But he also acts like a number of other characters, from their own religions and mythologies, and in fact their argument was much broader than that. And their arguments are implicitly imperialist in nature, since if we took them seriously we'd have to conclude many other religions are actually Christianity in disguise.
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Jun 4, 2017 23:32
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BrianWilly posted:No, because no one's saying the Ares from religion is like Satan from religion. They are saying that the Ares in this film is like Satan from religion. All it means is that the film/filmmakers are espousing Christian imagery, not that every historical religion is now retconned into Christianity. They are saying that the tempting trickster is inherently Christian in nature, that the fall from Heaven motif is inherently Christian in nature. This does have political implications, though hopefully inadvertent ones.
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Jun 4, 2017 23:35
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No one said imagery can only be one thing or that any presentation of it inherently makes it that. They're making interpretations based on this movie and also based on the context surrounding the movie. It's totally fine if you don't have the same interpretation. Now I'd really like to get back to the conversation about self image because now that I think about it Wonder Woman believing in her own strength was a major part of the beginning of the movie.
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Jun 4, 2017 23:44
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Nickoten posted:No one said imagery can only be one thing or that any presentation of it inherently makes it that. They're making interpretations based on this movie and also based on the context surrounding the movie. It's totally fine if you don't have the same interpretation. Actually, this has been the implicit statement, in order for "this movie twists Hellenic religion to be Judeo-Christian", the original statement under contention, to be a truthful one. Furthermore, retreating into a solipsistic "interpretations can't be wrong" is hardly a good thing.
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Jun 4, 2017 23:46
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So at the start of the movie when the German ships attacked the island, did the amazons swim out of the boats to stop them from leaving? Sure they killed all the Germans who landed on the beach but what about the boat captains and all the other personal? Did they just leave? Or are we to assume they jumped into rafts and helped the German grunts storm the beach?
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Jun 4, 2017 23:58
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Tenzarin posted:So at the start of the movie when the German ships attacked the island, did the amazons swim out of the boats to stop them from leaving? Sure they killed all the Germans who landed on the beach but what about the boat captains and all the other personal? Did they just leave? Or are we to assume they jumped into rafts and helped the German grunts storm the beach? We see the boat commanders get out, I'm pretty sure.
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Jun 5, 2017 00:01
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Brainiac Five posted:We see the boat commanders get out, I'm pretty sure. So like the German radio operators and ship engineers joined in the beach assault as well?
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Jun 5, 2017 00:13
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Tenzarin posted:So like the German radio operators and ship engineers joined in the beach assault as well? All I remember seeing hit the beaches were smaller rowboat sized vessels, which may not have required either of those crew specializations.
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Jun 5, 2017 00:26
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Filthy Casual posted:All I remember seeing hit the beaches were smaller rowboat sized vessels, which may not have required either of those crew specializations. They had large naval ships chasing him.
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Jun 5, 2017 00:27
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It looked to me like the boats that crossed through the shroud or whatever were already damaged and listing so they probably didn't have all that much further they could go...
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Jun 5, 2017 00:28
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Tenzarin posted:So like the German radio operators and ship engineers joined in the beach assault as well? I don't know if German cruisers carried field radios in 1918, or are you talking about the cruiser itself? Because I don't remember if the cruiser penetrated the wall around Themyscira, or high-tailed it after nobody came back out.
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Jun 5, 2017 00:28
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Historically they definitely had radios. In the landing scene iirc you see the ship listing heavily in the background which I wook for a shorthand "It sunk or something". I mean running into an unknown island justifies that but its more of a cheat than actually addressing it because they basically just have it disappear when it stops being relevant to explaining how Chris Pine is being chased..
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Jun 5, 2017 00:37
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I've just come from seeing the film, and while I'll eventually read through the thread, here are my immediate thoughts: Aesthetically, it was gorgeous, both visually and audibly. Especially visually and especially audibly. Themyscira is as much a paradise as William Marston could have envisioned, London is very much not, and later locations are even less so, and they're all beautiful. Gal Gadot and Chris Pine are both excellent in their roles, with Diana as optimistic as she is mighty, and Steve both in awe of her ability and wary of her naivety. General Bad Guy and Doctor Poison are both giddy in their ludicrous villainy. The film is very smart about handling Diana's ignorance. She tries to interpret the war as aberration in a world that would otherwise be good, and her struggle is largely with understanding that things are far more complicated and far less clean than she wants to believe. Yet, her efforts are framed as noble and good despite being flawed. One thing I had heard before seeing the film was that the third act was kind of weak, but I quite heavily disagree. The confrontation between Wonder Woman and Ares was a fitting thematic conclusion on several levels, not the least visually. Ares becomes increasingly weaponized throughout the fight, drawing on the available war machines to form his armor and weapons, and this concludes with him turning himself into a bullet and firing himself at Wonder Woman--who deflects him with her bracers even as she rejects his philosophy. On the whole, I was drat satisfied.
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Jun 5, 2017 00:57
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Corrosion posted:Yeah, the film makes all these bizarre implications about an island of only women making progress. It tries to present it as idyllic, but then you see stuff like "I know modern languages, but we seem to not know what fire arms are." "I know Biology, but what is this "time" you speak of?" I think there's a sense of pastoral fantasy that gets ascribed to the women of Themyscira, but I think it unwittingly raises a lot of questions that aren't favorable to the film. I DID like how some of it was used to show how unaware Diana was of the world, but then what does that say of her upbringing? I really feel like the film's use of Milton-esque temptation and Grecian imagery are used well. Have you ever met someone who is sheltered and homeschooled? How weird and patchy their knowledge seems? She read the 12 books about loving but if the book about watches got dropped in the ocean accidently she just wouldn't know what a watch is.
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Jun 5, 2017 01:04
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It's interesting to me that superhero movies have become so ubiquitous over the last 15 years that we now get films like Logan and Wonder Woman, which are ostensibly about their heroes but also westerns and period pieces, respectively.
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Jun 5, 2017 01:16
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exquisite tea posted:It's interesting to me that superhero movies have become so ubiquitous over the last 15 years that we now get films like Logan and Wonder Woman, which are ostensibly about their heroes but also westerns and period pieces, respectively. Superheroes were the only genre to survive the Franchise Wars. So, now all movies are superhero movies.
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Jun 5, 2017 01:17
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Have you ever met someone who is sheltered and homeschooled? How weird and patchy their knowledge seems? She read the 12 books about loving but if the book about watches got dropped in the ocean accidently she just wouldn't know what a watch is. But I wasn't referencing a watch, I was referencing the fact that she asked about the concept of "time" in relation to "the watch." I actually think that in the third act of the film and parts of the first act, Diana's ignorance to the world is as you describe and even sort of endearing given the opening scene and Diana's admission about her past self. Like, that line about "Where I come from, we call that slavery" sounds really dumb in the trailer, but in the context of the film it's actually quite insightful. Etta says as the audio drowns into the crowd that "I actually get paid rather well though." Or makes a reference to pay. I think Diana's naivete when it is conveyed clearly and effectively is what you're asking me, but we're not talking about a watch here, we're talking about an island of women that knows biology but the concept of "Time", its passage, the notion of it, somehow that isn't there. Sure this is a gripe about motivation/naturalization, but Diana knows hundreds of languages, many of which my linguist friend pointed out were modern. That would mean there's a swiss cheese of knowledge going on. Sometimes I think that works, sometimes it makes the Themyscarians convey something not just antiquated about gods, but something about the intelligence of their culture. Diana being sheltered works for me in some areas of the film and not in others. The third act was quite good at making this, in general, convey quite strongly. I think referencing Milton, even though that goes over some people's heads, was a good choice.
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Jun 5, 2017 01:22
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Superheroes were the only genre to survive the Franchise Wars. So, now all movies are superhero movies. If they all are super, would be be campy to not have a superhero with powers movie?
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Jun 5, 2017 01:29
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farraday posted:Historically they definitely had radios. In the landing scene iirc you see the ship listing heavily in the background which I wook for a shorthand "It sunk or something". A part of me wants to get annoyed at it, but I realize that if it was, say, GotG and the same thing happened in a space war with aliens I'd accept the hand wave, so mostly I just shrug and accept that they use WW1 as a backdrop and aren't trying to be historically accurate.
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Jun 5, 2017 01:30
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me like 6 years ago posted:It's interesting to me that superhero movies have become so ubiquitous over the last 10 years that we now get films like The Dark Knight and Captain America: The First Avenger, which are ostensibly about their heroes but also crime dramas and period pieces, respectively.
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Jun 5, 2017 01:31
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One of my issues with this movie is that multiple times women ran up / crashed in / rode on a horse wearing in boob armor and not one soldier soldier said "Mam, this is a war zone, you can't be here" There's a lot of stuff that falls apart if you think about, but this really is the best of the DC movies. Like a lot of people, I liked from her climbing into no man's land to the french village The end seemed like a lot of CGI fighting CGI with voice over. My favorite moment was "Ooh, a Baby" Nice bit of humanization. hiddenriverninja posted:Steve's sacrifice isn't Christian, it's Captain American That's hilariously on target. "He could have ditched it in the ocean!" applies here as well. I do wonder how the refugees got through No Man's Land, the trenches were an unbroken line from the ocean to Switzerland.
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Jun 5, 2017 01:32
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Brainiac Five posted:That's kind of a weak connection, because it's not connected with any change in his status. He's a god before and a god after, and the implication is that he's destroyed the heavens, since he killed the rest of the gods. It isn't a weak connection at all. He is right. The movie doesn't understand Greek mythology. You're out of your depth here.
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Jun 5, 2017 02:09
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RedSpider posted:Maybe they're afraid to be called sexist or something Yes, this is definitely a thing that bothers people and definitely affects behaviour.
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Jun 5, 2017 02:20
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Judakel posted:It isn't a weak connection at all. He is right. The movie doesn't understand Greek mythology. You're out of your depth here. Well, that settles it, Judakel has disagreed with me so I'm probably right.
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Jun 5, 2017 02:23
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MrJacobs posted:I dont understand this. MoS wasn't so much dark as a more realistic take on Superman, where everyone feared him and showed the logical repercussions of what happens when Gods do battle in a real world like setting and happened to have genocidal villains which is something classic Superman had as well. Batman is dark by nature and so is Suicide Squad since they are just the dirty dozen and are full of vile individuals. Man of Steel gets called dark because they take the bleakest interpretation of common Superman things when given the option. Superman's bio-dad is killed right in front of his mom. She just bleakly watches the world end, turning to ash. They reinterpret the "joy of being Superman" element that in all other interpretations is just an audience enjoying moment to one of violence and melancholy. He leaves impact craters trying to jump, terrorizes flocks of animals just because. His early life is entirely couched in this idea of remaining secret. He idly watches his adoptive father die to a tornado and does nothing entirely for philosophical reasons, just consoles his mother as she watches her husband be carried away for the sake of a dog. The world is introduced to Zod not like a super villain but like a terrorist via prerecorded demands. Superman's introduction to the world isn't via some heroic act of saving people but the "heroic" act of putting himself in chains so that humans can decide what to do with him. And humanity trades him away for safety (faith in humanity that his father talked about being less than he'd hoped). We don't negotiate with terrorisits but we do negotiate with intergalactic terrorists. Then they bring up Terminator 2 imagery and have Superman drown in a sea of skulls. They threaten and toss around his elderly mom. And, of course, the final segment revolves around the genocide of either Superman's species or humanity and Superman chooses genocide for his own people. That was all just by glancing at an image gallery from the movie. I'm sure there's more. If there's any joy in the movie, it was most likely brief and crushed right after by a following scene. It's a dark, dark super hero movie without even touching on the collateral damage portion or the washed out color. It's not ineffective in what it aims for though, which I think is why those who like it really like it. But I'd challenge anyone who doesn't think it's a dark film. Edit: It's a dark film  On Wonder Woman, I think the dialogue may try and suggest Ares is only providing the tools for mankind's destruction but the visuals are very poorly chosen if that's the case. Having him whisper in people's ear is a strong visual metaphor for mind control and the hugging German and Allied soldiers immediately after Ares's death is also a visual metaphor for him directly controlling them. It undermines the attempt to suggest that Ares wasn't controlling them. The visuals come off more as Ares rationalizing things from his perspective as The God of War, that humans are doing this of his own free will. I feel like they re-wrote the voice over after filming the visuals. Ape Agitator fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Jun 5, 2017 |
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Jun 5, 2017 02:46
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:This movie gets all the credit in the world for doing the whole no man's land scene where people are saying "it's called no man's land because no man can cross it" without having to be the sort of garbage movie that has wonder woman say "good thing I'm no man" (even if that still was the implication of the scene) Did you see the new Pirates too? It was hilarious how the only reason no man could read the map was because the only men who saw the book were uneducated. Then that plot point was seemingly resolved and never mentioned again 
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Jun 5, 2017 02:48
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Corrosion posted:But I wasn't referencing a watch, I was referencing the fact that she asked about the concept of "time" in relation to "the watch." I actually think that in the third act of the film and parts of the first act, Diana's ignorance to the world is as you describe and even sort of endearing given the opening scene and Diana's admission about her past self. Aren't the Amazons immortal, or at the very least live thousands of years (some of them look like they're in the 40s/50s)? Why would they care about time? The language thing, yeah, that's weird.
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Jun 5, 2017 02:49
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Charlz Guybon posted:Aren't the Amazons immortal, or at the very least live thousands of years (some of them look like they're in the 40s/50s)? Why would they care about time? Consider how old Diana must be. She's the youngest of the Amazons, to the point where she's the only child in an island of adults. The answer, as much as there is an answer, is that Themyscira is a magical island. Zeus did it.
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Jun 5, 2017 03:01
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I think it's more that they're timeless. Time passing outside has no impact on them.
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Jun 5, 2017 03:01
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Speaking of which, the timeline of Themyscira gets a little wonky I think. If Zeus made Diana as he died, does that mean that Zeus and the other gods defeated Ares then died, like, in the early 20th Century? 'Cuz that's about when Diana would've been born/made/whatever. Or does that mean Diana is a two-thousand year-old womanchild? There's also Hippolyta telling Antiope that Ares might never return and the threat is totally over forever when they would've fought him, like, about a decade ago 'cuz Diana's a twelve year-old at that point.
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Jun 5, 2017 03:04
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BrianWilly posted:Speaking of which, the timeline of Themyscira gets a little wonky I think. If Zeus made Diana as he died, does that mean that Zeus and the other gods defeated Ares then died, like, in the early 20th Century? 'Cuz that's about when Diana would've been born/made/whatever. Or does that mean Diana is a two-thousand year-old womanchild? There's also Hippolyta telling Antiope that Ares might never return and the threat is totally over forever when they would've fought him, like, about a decade ago 'cuz Diana's a twelve year-old at that point. It's magic. Zeus did it.
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Jun 5, 2017 03:07
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BrianWilly posted:Speaking of which, the timeline of Themyscira gets a little wonky I think. If Zeus made Diana as he died, does that mean that Zeus and the other gods defeated Ares then died, like, in the early 20th Century? 'Cuz that's about when Diana would've been born/made/whatever. Or does that mean Diana is a two-thousand year-old womanchild? There's also Hippolyta telling Antiope that Ares might never return and the threat is totally over forever when they would've fought him, like, about a decade ago 'cuz Diana's a twelve year-old at that point. Maybe they age 1 year for a hundred? Hippolyta's story definitely looks like it took place in ancient Greece. Charlz Guybon fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Jun 5, 2017 |
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Jun 5, 2017 03:10
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Charlz Guybon posted:Maybe they age 1 year for a hundred? In interviews I believe they say Diana is 5000 years old.
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Jun 5, 2017 03:12
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Ape Agitator posted:Man of Steel gets called dark because they take the bleakest interpretation of common Superman things when given the option. Superman's bio-dad is killed right in front of his mom. She just bleakly watches the world end, turning to ash. They reinterpret the "joy of being Superman" element that in all other interpretations is just an audience enjoying moment to one of violence and melancholy. He leaves impact craters trying to jump, terrorizes flocks of animals just because. His early life is entirely couched in this idea of remaining secret. He idly watches his adoptive father die to a tornado and does nothing entirely for philosophical reasons, just consoles his mother as she watches her husband be carried away for the sake of a dog. The world is introduced to Zod not like a super villain but like a terrorist via prerecorded demands. Superman's introduction to the world isn't via some heroic act of saving people but the "heroic" act of putting himself in chains so that humans can decide what to do with him. And humanity trades him away for safety (faith in humanity that his father talked about being less than he'd hoped). We don't negotiate with terrorisits but we do negotiate with intergalactic terrorists. Then they bring up Terminator 2 imagery and have Superman drown in a sea of skulls. They threaten and toss around his elderly mom. And, of course, the final segment revolves around the genocide of either Superman's species or humanity and Superman chooses genocide for his own people. I still don't know if "dark" is the right word though. I think "modern" or "grounded" or "realistic" would come to my mind before "dark", though what you're saying is all very correct and after watching BvS again today, I think I would call that one a dark movie. I think both of them, despite the general consensus that seems to have built up around them, are deeply sincere movies. Snyder has developed a reputation as someone who makes ultra-violent, cynical, dark movies based off of stuff like Dawn of the Dead, 300, and Watchmen, but I think Man of Steel doesn't have that same level of cynicism at it's core, though because it still looks like a Zack Snyder movie, people just kind of carry that over. It doesn't completely redefine who Superman is, it just takes the archetype and places it in a setting very, very reminiscent of our world circa 2013-15, and doesn't treat it's audience like children by making Superman into a cartoon. The problem there is that when people go to comic book movies, a lot of the time they are not looking to connect the world they're watching on screen to where they're currently at, they want to escape. Man of Steel is not a movie for escaping, and nor is BvS. They are very close to home politically speaking (to the point where they definitely hit you over the head with it, i.e. Zod's terrorist message, or the end of MoS with the drone). Also, the color is definitely not "washed out". Both of Snyder's Superman movies tend to be monochromatic from scene to scene with accent colors (red being the primary one, obvi), but there's a very wide palate, and it's all very sharply shot. Blue scenes are blue, yellow scenes are yellow, sepia scenes are in the past, and so on.
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Jun 5, 2017 03:15
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farraday posted:In interviews I believe they say Diana is 5000 years old. I did like the exposition storybook they had with the animated baroque art (another anachronistic element!); it was kind of reminiscent, in a good way, of Jor-El's animated pointillism mural in MoS. I hope every other DC film also uses some eye-catching art style to depict their backstories. Aquaman can use watercolors HAHAHA but seriously folks
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Jun 5, 2017 03:21
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Facial hair game could have been better in this movie.
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Jun 5, 2017 03:35
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Democratic Pirate posted:Facial hair game could have been better in this movie. Interesting fact for WW1 promoted shaving to be able to wear gas masks.
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Jun 5, 2017 03:39
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They have at least one boat, that's seaworthy enough to sail from wherever in the Mediterranean or Atlantic Steve could get to on a tank of gas from the weapons facility to England. I assume Amazons have been quietly observing human society and picking up languages in case they're needed to act.
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Jun 5, 2017 03:42
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DC Murderverse posted:It doesn't completely redefine who Superman is, it just takes the archetype and places it in a setting very, very reminiscent of our world circa 2013-15, and doesn't treat it's audience like children by making Superman into a cartoon. See I specifically thing it's wording like this that makes the arguments go on and on- the implication, even unintentional, that making it happier would be "treating the audience like children", and that this is Showing Us The World As It Is.
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Jun 5, 2017 03:42
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Intriguingly, they incorporated some New Gods material into Wonder Woman in a pretty subtle way.
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Jun 5, 2017 03:43
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