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Also lol primaris marines are all 2 wounds and 2 attacks haha
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Jun 5, 2017 11:10
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Pidgin Englishman posted:Also lol primaris marines are all 2 wounds and 2 attacks haha lololololololo
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Jun 5, 2017 11:17
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lol I don't mind the index books but the limited edition thing is hilariously priced. Even my super nerd friend who used to buy those type of things would balk at £250 and that's in proper money and not GW-exchange-rate Aussie dollars.
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Jun 5, 2017 11:26
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It'll also be outdated in 1 1/2 years. Just ask my friend about buying the limited edition of the first Knight codex, that sucker only lasted 14 months.
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Jun 5, 2017 11:34
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Southern Heel posted:^ so are you implying that if there is a single dice roll on turn 1 of a game that would so comprehensively ruin a demo, that it's a good rule? Or that it's a Good Rule if combat is already so janky that you have troops that can't fight because of the nested rule inside a nested rule for piling on? I assume you also virulently hate Warmachine and Hordes?
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Jun 5, 2017 11:50
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Hamshot posted:It'll also be outdated in 1 1/2 years. Just ask my friend about buying the limited edition of the first Knight codex, that sucker only lasted 14 months. I remember that very rude
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Jun 5, 2017 11:51
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Hamshot posted:It'll also be outdated in 1 1/2 years. Just ask my friend about buying the limited edition of the first Knight codex, that sucker only lasted 14 months. "seems like a good value to me" - A gibbering moron
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Jun 5, 2017 12:24
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I assume you also virulently hate Warmachine and Hordes? Some of their models look cool. They do a lovely job of giving the 'Saturday morning cartoon' vibe they're going for, though. I hate that losing a single model loses you the whole game or, that one model uses a skill that proceeds to steam roll you, with no way to fight back.
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Jun 5, 2017 12:32
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I assume you also virulently hate Warmachine and Hordes? Pretty sure the way you can get a crushing advantage with one good dice roll in Warmahordes demo games is one of the widely recognized faults of battlebox games and why people generally avoid playing games of that size unless their opponent literally has nothing else. Ofcourse that dice roll won't typically happen turn 1 either and the armies are like 3-5 models total.
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Jun 5, 2017 12:36
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Warmachine owns, if it was slightly easier to get in the UK and I had people to play it with I'd be extremely deep into it (oh wait... i bought 3 different armies and painted all of them, I guess I am pretty deep into it) its the only tabletop game I've actually legit enjoyed as a game, I think the rules are great but I haven't played 2E or 3E whichever this one is. Been reading over some of the responses in the hamlovers thread and it certainly does sound like 40k. Seems like they added a little AoS to it as well with "hmm what should this weapon do...roll xd6 mortal wounds!" stuff. Some chap was saying he played a shooty army and tabled his opponents in both games just because he won the initiative roll at the start, then he said that meant he couldnt tell if the game was balanced or not. Well it certainly told me whether it was balanced or not Are the new indexes just the free rules from sigmar but you pay for them? It looks like people are having fun though, if I was still 16 and in a group of hams it'd probably be a lot of fun trying out all the new rules, until you realised all your stuff was worthless now because whirlwinds have been nerfed or whatever... those were the days e: also the new armour stuff sounds like it just makes the game more confusing, i like the idea of armour rend but 0+ saves to compensate is such an inelegant way of doing it, its almost like someone trying to mod something modern into an oldass videogame with weird rules. Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Jun 5, 2017 |
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Jun 5, 2017 13:14
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0+ saves existed as a concept in WHFB for like 25 years, it isn't very hard to understand.
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Jun 5, 2017 13:27
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I'm reading the Dark Imperium tie-in novel. 80 pages in and I'm struggling to continue. It's intensely mediocre.
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Jun 5, 2017 13:28
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Ayn Marx posted:I'm reading the Dark Imperium tie-in novel. 80 pages in and I'm struggling to continue. It's intensely mediocre. Rynn's World may be the worst book I've ever read. After that I gave up on GW fiction entirely
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Jun 5, 2017 13:36
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nopantsjack posted:Some chap was saying he played a shooty army and tabled his opponents in both games just because he won the initiative roll at the start, then he said that meant he couldnt tell if the game was balanced or not. Well it certainly told me whether it was balanced or not Well this was me; I did win convincingly twice, and I do credit that towards the seize the initiative roll. This is at the start of the game, when the player who would be going second (so currently, the one who had last set up a unit from the alternate deployment, a pretty current and good bit of game design) can get the first turn himself on a 6. I don't think it's a particularly good rule; infinity is the game I play competitively and it would be out of place in that game, where going first or second imposes certain tactical choices on the player. In 40k, I don't mind it. Not going to try and say that the game shouldn't have good rules, the notorious 'beer and pretzel' defence, but the game is generally a giant slogging match between two forces, you compete at doing crushing blows in your turn and wait for the reprisal. In this instance, we were playing a very low points level and with so few units (and we didn't really use enough terrain, we were thrown by the new rules changes) a turn more of getting shot than my opponents reckoned with was decisive. It's not great, but hey, when I'm going first I have to deal with his chance to do the same for me, and the assault forces would be in my grill after only standing one round of shooting. As is, turn 2 assaults were launched, which I think will be he norm in 40k now. They just weren't as game-ending as they would have been before the fall back rule came in. In short, I stand by the remark that 40k may be more balanced - i specifically meant between shooting and assault tactics - but I can't tell from games where I seized. Yeah, seized could probably be cut from the game as being the wrong kind of uncertainty. But it certainly added to the atmosphere when I did it twice in a row!
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Jun 5, 2017 13:39
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Rulebook Heavily posted:It's funny how 8th edition seems smart enough to make me actually interested again, and at the same time the Marine models are at the lowest point I've ever held them at. The basic Primaris is fine but everything else has just been a wash.  You traitorous git!
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Jun 5, 2017 13:40
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Crackbone posted:"seems like a good value to me" Only 2000 copies worldwide! A bargain at $826 NZD! Get it while you still can!
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Jun 5, 2017 13:43
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Corrode posted:Rynn's World may be the worst book I've ever read. After that I gave up on GW fiction entirely It's not all bad! I enjoyed Carrion Throne a lot. But overall GW fiction is wildly inconsistent and mostly poo poo
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Jun 5, 2017 13:45
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Ayn Marx posted:It's not all bad! I enjoyed Carrion Throne a lot. But overall GW fiction is wildly inconsistent and mostly poo poo I remember the Horus Heresy books being passable pulp sci fi but that isn't exactly wild praise
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Jun 5, 2017 14:25
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I heard through the local rumor vine that supposedly I know a guy that playtested 8th. He used to be really good at breaking that game wide open in order to make stuff that was incredibly difficult to beat and abusing the poor rules writing and list design inherent in 40k. It would be pretty funny if that dude pushed GW to actually make a fairly decent and balanced game and then they invalidated all of his efforts in like six months once they inevitably put out the poorly designed codexes.
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Jun 5, 2017 14:34
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Crackbone posted:"seems like a good value to me" Hey that's not very nice
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Jun 5, 2017 14:38
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Accurate though. I've never seen a company treat its own customers with so little respect for their hard-earned money. Index rules should easily, easily be free. If GW take 3 years to release a proper codex for an army then that's their problem.
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Jun 5, 2017 14:45
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Moola posted:I give it six months until 8th is even more of a clusterfuck than 7th I don't think GW will wait that long to publish the Primaris rules.
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Jun 5, 2017 14:45
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Radish posted:I heard through the local rumor vine that supposedly I know a guy that playtested 8th. He used to be really good at breaking that game wide open in order to make stuff that was incredibly difficult to beat and abusing the poor rules writing and list design inherent in 40k. It would be pretty funny if that dude pushed GW to actually make a fairly decent and balanced game and then they invalidated all of his efforts in like six months once they inevitably put out the poorly designed codexes. Has much come out about the playtesters who were involved? It seems weird that the only people I've heard talked about much were those guys from NOVA or whatever when I can think of like 20 people within a short train journey of Nottingham who used to put together absolutely hateful lists and would have done some excellent playtesting.
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Jun 5, 2017 14:45
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I'm not sure. I've fallen out of the community but for a while the DMV area was the epicenter of horrible GW lists for like every system. I have no idea if that's still the case of if somewhere else has become the new power gamer place. I've known a few guys that I would trust to break a system and then report how they did it and how GW could stop it from happening but I've also heard that GW basically just does playtesting as a formality and tweaks some points here and there based on reports rather than actually do any real fixes.
Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Jun 5, 2017 |
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Jun 5, 2017 14:49
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Irate Tree posted:Some of their models look cool. They do a lovely job of giving the 'Saturday morning cartoon' vibe they're going for, though. The caster kill is a fine rule that works excellently as the game is built around the concept. It means you're constantly balancing risk vs reward, and they can create casters that play around with this concept. I don't get what you mean by the steam roll complaint though. Unless you want all games to have reactions like Infinity.
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Jun 5, 2017 14:53
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Genghis Cohen posted:Well this was me; I did win convincingly twice, and I do credit that towards the seize the initiative roll. This is at the start of the game, when the player who would be going second (so currently, the one who had last set up a unit from the alternate deployment, a pretty current and good bit of game design) can get the first turn himself on a 6. I don't think it's a particularly good rule; infinity is the game I play competitively and it would be out of place in that game, where going first or second imposes certain tactical choices on the player. In 40k, I don't mind it. Yeah I hesitated posting it because I didnt wanna seem like I was calling you out or something, that kinda thing just sounded a lot like the old 40k to me. Actually the other way round for me since my friends used to play on a small board so if the melee army went first they'd win every time. How are the main rules in terms of 'bloat'? Me and my friend played a friendly game of 40k quite recently for the first time in ages, we were using his little brothers newer books and by the end we were constantly laughing at how many drat special rules there were to learn. "This unit is a Beast of Chaos - look up that rule - Beasts of Chaos count as Monstrous Creatures and have the Crippling Claw special rule - look up these rules - Monstrous Creatures have the Slam, Unbreakable and Furious Charge special rules - etc" all spread out over at least 2 books. AoS looks terrible rules wise to me but at least the rules take about 10 minutes to learn, I don't think my group ever had a commanding grip on the 40k rules.
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Jun 5, 2017 14:56
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Thirsty Dog posted:The caster kill is a fine rule that works excellently as the game is built around the concept. It means you're constantly balancing risk vs reward, and they can create casters that play around with this concept. Maybe it's referring to Feats? That's the only steam roll skill i can think of but then a large part of the game is not giving your opponent an opening to capitalise on their feat.
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Jun 5, 2017 14:56
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I like Warmachine OK but I've seen on more than one occasion it make a terrible first impression when a guy brings his awesome list full of complicated combos to an intro game and win the game on like turn two where models have abilities that chain together and become difficult to deal with when you don't know the way the game works. You can see the look on the other guy's face where he's just decided he's wasted his money and quits the game right there at the table because it's so obviously broken (it isn't but sure can look that way if you don't understand how to play yet).
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Jun 5, 2017 14:58
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Corrode posted:Has much come out about the playtesters who were involved? It seems weird that the only people I've heard talked about much were those guys from NOVA or whatever when I can think of like 20 people within a short train journey of Nottingham who used to put together absolutely hateful lists and would have done some excellent playtesting. Yeah but only getting testing done by top men at NOVA no doubt appeals to the heavily elitist mindset within the company
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Jun 5, 2017 15:02
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AgentF posted:Accurate though. I've never seen a company treat its own customers with so little respect for their hard-earned money. Index rules should easily, easily be free. If GW take 3 years to release a proper codex for an army then that's their problem. Dude you have no idea how I make my money. I do pretty much nothing and they keep paying me. So really it's like I'm getting the rule books for free
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Jun 5, 2017 15:05
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Radish posted:I like Warmachine OK but I've seen on more than one occasion it make a terrible first impression when a guy brings his awesome list full of complicated combos to an intro game and win the game on like turn two where models have abilities that chain together and become difficult to deal with when you don't know the way the game works. You can see the look on the other guy's face where he's just decided he's wasted his money and quits the game right there at the table because it's so obviously broken (it isn't but sure can look that way if you don't understand how to play yet). I do like high skill ceilings in games and a more experienced and skill player being able to win reliably is a good sign in my book. Using this to go noobstomping is a failure on a human level though. If someone tells you "I'm new to this, please go easy on me" and you then proceed to obliterate them to the full extent of your abilities because an easy win validates your broken ego or something then congrats for damaging the community of the game you're invested in.
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Jun 5, 2017 15:07
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Ayn Marx posted:It's not all bad! I enjoyed Carrion Throne a lot. But overall GW fiction is wildly inconsistent and mostly poo poo Are GW books any worse than most brand fiction? It all tends to be pretty garbage with a few bright spots. Like tons of the Star Wars books were terrible, lots of DnD books were terrible (I thought Dragonlance was rad as a kid but I suspect it wouldn't hold up to a re-read). I haven't tried them but I assume that the Warcraft and Halo books are all about the same. As a genre it's just generally bottom-barrel. Bistromatic posted:Maybe it's referring to Feats? That's the only steam roll skill i can think of but then a large part of the game is not giving your opponent an opening to capitalise on their feat. Radish posted:I like Warmachine OK but I've seen on more than one occasion it make a terrible first impression when a guy brings his awesome list full of complicated combos to an intro game and win the game on like turn two where models have abilities that chain together and become difficult to deal with when you don't know the way the game works. You can see the look on the other guy's face where he's just decided he's wasted his money and quits the game right there at the table because it's so obviously broken (it isn't but sure can look that way if you don't understand how to play yet). Plot twist: I was using Magnus the Traitor, and his rules mean he actually can't be shot at when he's knocked down, but the other guy had such a boner for his amazing combo he wasn't interested in helping a new player follow what was happening and check the rules, so he basically just cheated his way to a caster kill and I didn't realize until I was going through the game later with a much more helpful player. Groups should really have some sort of system so prevent those guys running games against new people. Edit: to be clear this isn't a 'Warmachine sucks' thing, its just that bad players in Warmachine are more likely to stomp people with particular combination abilities/models, whereas when people do this in other games it takes a different form. Like for 40k it would be 'yes I would love to fight against the Green Tide you just painted new person, let me get my flavor-of-the-month marines and mow them down en masse' or something that is demoralizing but probably much simpler to follow. Ashcans fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Jun 5, 2017 |
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Jun 5, 2017 15:08
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Yeah that wasn't a slam against Warmachine at all. I had the same thing happen to me in Malifaux where I basically lost the game before it even started based on the objectives I picked and the other guy's combo units but didn't know better. I said I was new and would appreciate any tips but had to waste two hours of my life before I realized I literally never had a chance and quit. Even if the game was good it pretty much made me understand I didn't want to play in that community. I believe some of Those Guys think they are doing the new player a service and aren't trying to be assholes by showing newbies how the game is "really played" which has some logic to it but really it just makes the game look broken as hell because they don't have the reference for how it all clicks together. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Jun 5, 2017 |
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Jun 5, 2017 15:17
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nopantsjack posted:Yeah I hesitated posting it because I didnt wanna seem like I was calling you out or something, that kinda thing just sounded a lot like the old 40k to me. Actually the other way round for me since my friends used to play on a small board so if the melee army went first they'd win every time. Actually one thing I can definitely say they've improved is the nearly complete removal of all those Russian doll rules where you keep looking up definitions. The unit special rules which are there, are all specifically stated on the model's sheet, so we didn't have any issues given we were looking up units' new stat lines throughout. It genuinely did seem to move faster. Playing again today, so I'll post in the 40k thread.
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Jun 5, 2017 15:19
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Radish posted:I like Warmachine OK but I've seen on more than one occasion it make a terrible first impression when a guy brings his awesome list full of complicated combos to an intro game and win the game on like turn two where models have abilities that chain together and become difficult to deal with when you don't know the way the game works. You can see the look on the other guy's face where he's just decided he's wasted his money and quits the game right there at the table because it's so obviously broken (it isn't but sure can look that way if you don't understand how to play yet). Ashcans posted:Plot twist: I was using Magnus the Traitor, and his rules mean he actually can't be shot at when he's knocked down, but the other guy had such a boner for his amazing combo he wasn't interested in helping a new player follow what was happening and check the rules, so he basically just cheated his way to a caster kill and I didn't realize until I was going through the game later with a much more helpful player. Groups should really have some sort of system so prevent those guys running games against new people. I dunno how it is now but I feel like PP's marketing plays into this. Certainly when it was first getting big there was a real macho streak to how they sold the game and the attitude they tried to get across, and that seemed to attract the kind of flat track bully who is good at copying lists off the internet but isn't good at actually playing them. Plus yeah, lots of "I read the rules up to the bit where it says I win" type guys.
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Jun 5, 2017 15:22
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Hamshot posted:Only 2000 copies worldwide! A bargain at $826 NZD! Get it while you still can! can I pay in bitcoin?
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Jun 5, 2017 15:35
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AgentF posted:Accurate though. I've never seen a company treat its own customers with so little respect for their hard-earned money. AgentF posted:Index rules should easily, easily be free.
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Jun 5, 2017 15:37
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Wow, Guy Haley can make "Space Marines hot drop through the atmosphere straight into a battle" boring to read about
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Jun 5, 2017 15:42
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Radish posted:I'm not sure. I've fallen out of the community but for a while the DMV area was the epicenter of horrible GW lists for like every system. I have no idea if that's still the case of if somewhere else has become the new power gamer place. I've known a few guys that I would trust to break a system and then report how they did it and how GW could stop it from happening but I've also heard that GW basically just does playtesting as a formality and tweaks some points here and there based on reports rather than actually do any real fixes.  is the IFL still around? I played with the Don and the group was a huge grognard pit
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Jun 5, 2017 15:46
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nopantsjack posted:How are the main rules in terms of 'bloat'? Goon Sir may I recommend a fine miniature simulation game by the name of Infinity?
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Jun 5, 2017 15:58
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