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Hra Mormo posted:Yeah whatever Warmachine is or is not it's definitely not a game with generally cheaper mans than GW (though some of the most egregious gw poo poo like 5 dudes for 50 freedom moneys is a bit out of line). At best Warmachine could be lauded for having mans at a multitude of price points, if you want a man but not a lot of man you can just drop some pocket money on a solo or maybe a new caster and still have a new toy to play with. With GW the same pricepoint usually only covers supplies and some of the cheapest HQs. Fair. I guess a lot of the more popular mini makers are pricing at GW levels because that's what they can get away with
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Jun 5, 2017 18:22
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Serotonin posted:To be fair, having come across recently from Warmachine, a lot of recent GW releases aren't that pricey, or are on a part with PP products. The recent plastic colossals are ridiculously expensive a relevant post: Captain Invictus posted:That's an insane deal as far as army bundles go in miniatures games. That's a little over 2 dollars per figure, including 3 Striders, 8 jetbikes and an aircraft. That's a helluva deal if someone's looking to pick up an army on the cheap.
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Jun 5, 2017 18:25
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Seldom Posts posted:a relevant post: As an owner of a Mantic Kings of War mega army deal (that I got at a 50% discount) I agree they are a massive lot of minis for your money. Counterpoint- they arent very good minis.
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Jun 5, 2017 18:26
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Bistromatic posted:I stopped actively playing around the time the first battle engines were released and i still think it's a bad idea to go that big with game pieces. WMH seems, compared to GW, to have a lot better rules (for an 'objective' measure of coherency, clarity, skill ceiling etc.), but worse models. Now though it seems they are trying to reach for GW levels of commercial fuckery. Did they introduce their Colossals before or after GW started going crazy with WFB giant centrepieces? What's the timeline of influence here?
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Jun 5, 2017 18:27
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Hra Mormo posted:Yeah whatever Warmachine is or is not it's definitely not a game with generally cheaper mans than GW (though some of the most egregious gw poo poo like 5 dudes for 50 freedom moneys is a bit out of line). At best Warmachine could be lauded for having mans at a multitude of price points, if you want a man but not a lot of man you can just drop some pocket money on a solo or maybe a new caster and still have a new toy to play with. With GW the same pricepoint usually only covers supplies and some of the cheapest HQs. Warmachines big pull on the pricing front, is that you get a lot of mileage and variation in what you buy. An "hq" choice can pretty drastically define how the stuff you own works, so reworking a list to fit the newest flavor of the moth doesn't necessarily mean starting from scratch. Really though, price isn't the big draw for warmachine. It's mainly tight rules and a goal of balance between factions/modles that allow for good competitive/casual play w00tmonger fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Jun 5, 2017 |
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Jun 5, 2017 18:28
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anti_strunt posted:WMH seems, compared to GW, to have a lot better rules (for an 'objective' measure of coherency, clarity, skill ceiling etc.), but worse models. Now though it seems they are trying to reach for GW levels of commercial fuckery. Collosals have been around about 4 or 5 years now iirc
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Jun 5, 2017 18:30
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w00tmonger posted:Warmachines big pull on the pricing front, is that you get a lot of mileage and variation in what you buy. An "hq" choice can pretty drastically define how the stuff you own works, so reworking a list to fit the newest flavor of the moth doesn't necessarily mean starting from scratch. True, but they have also caused a lot of anger in the past by invalidating lists with erratas etc. A certain subset of gamer will get salty about literally anything. I bet someone in here saved that PP forum post from the guy trying to start a class action lawsuit against them for changing his lists.
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Jun 5, 2017 18:31
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Moola posted:link [quote=" http://thefoundingfields.com/2012/05/the-emperors-gift-shadowhawk/"] My love for the Grey Knights started with Ben Counter’s Grey Knights novels and I’ve always reading about them. I’ve even gamed with and against them on the tabletop. As such, they are a chapter I’m quite intimate with so I was very curious to see how Aaron Dembski-Bowden would deliver, and whether I would enjoy The Emperor’s Gift as much as I’ve enjoyed Ben’s work with them over the years. The Emperor’s Gift is a novel that gets everything right and checks all the boxes on the list of “what makes a novel great”. It is seriously character-driven to the extreme, has great set piece battles and, by the time you are done with it, it leaves you on an emotional high. In more ways than one. Like with the majority of Gav Thorpe’s work, Aaron knows how to get in the mind of his characters and write as if its the characters themselves writing. Our protagonist Hyperion, from whose first person perspective the novel is written, is a deeply-flawed “good guy” character that you learn to appreciate over the course of the narrative and seeing the world around him through his eyes is a learning experience that is not to be missed by any fan of the setting. I liked Hyperion from the get go, mainly because he is the protagonist in a great novel, and because he is written as a (mostly) realistic and believable character. Since the novel is written as his account of the events leading up to the First War for Armageddon, the defining battle of that conflict, and its aftermath, we really get into his psyche and see what makes the Grey Knights tick and how they interact with everyone around them. There is a particular revelation about Hyperion in the novel however, that I didn’t really like because for me it detracts from the narrative. I can’t see it as anything other than a random cool moment that is just meant to score cool points. Especially since there aren’t actually a lot of people who are going to get the reference too! Ah well. [/quote] PoontifexMacksimus fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Jun 5, 2017 |
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Jun 5, 2017 18:33
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Serotonin posted:As an owner of a Mantic Kings of War mega army deal (that I got at a 50% discount) I agree they are a massive lot of minis for your money. Fair enough. I have some of the old mantic dorfs, and some of the new mantic dorfs, and the new dorfs are way, way better. The new steel warriors are as good or better than any of the GW fantasy minis I have. I haven't tried building the enforcers yet.
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Jun 5, 2017 18:33
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w00tmonger posted:
Yeah the rules are pretty tight and make a great tournament game. My problem with is has been the level of complexity is way too high for my kids who want to get into wargaming, They loved the appeal of big heroic casters etc pulling off cool stuff, but all the complexities of the synergies etc left them totally out of their depth. We tried Kings of War and that also left them cold as it doesnt really have that heroic factor of big models doing cool poo poo with super hero like powers. Against my better judgement we picked up[ a couple of Age of Sigmar start collecting sets and the kids have loved it. I know its damning the game with faint praise but its perfect for young kids. The new 40k looks similar the and the kids are excited by the aesthetic.
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Jun 5, 2017 18:35
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Seldom Posts posted:Fair enough. I have some of the old mantic dorfs, and some of the new mantic dorfs, and the new dorfs are way, way better. The new steel warriors are as good or better than any of the GW fantasy minis I have. Ive got the KoW dwarfs and they paint up OK, but they really arent great models. I also bought into Dreadball in a big way and while I think its a better game than Bloodbowl (or rather it was at release before rule boat hit it super quick due to their dumb release schedule) the minis were horrific to clean up and paint.
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Jun 5, 2017 18:36
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Serotonin posted:Counterpoint- they arent very good minis. Agreedo!
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Jun 5, 2017 18:39
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Moola posted:Agreedo! I did like the Berserker Badger Riders though
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Jun 5, 2017 18:40
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Ironically I just hit up my Mantic Asterians with some Nuln Oil today and wow they suddenly don't look like rear end anymore. Makes you think.
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Jun 5, 2017 18:40
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Serotonin posted:I did like the Berserker Badger Riders though I think Phoon(?) sent me some Ogre dudes and they were pretty neat
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Jun 5, 2017 18:42
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Serotonin posted:Collosals have been around about 4 or 5 years now iirc Alright, I wasn't following WFB for years before the Sigmocalypse, when did the escalation to stuff like the new Nagash start? It'd be pretty interesting if PP actually taught GW a lesson in what the market will swallow... PoontifexMacksimus fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Jun 5, 2017 |
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Jun 5, 2017 18:42
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Moola posted:daily reminder that being a fan of a company that just sells toys is weird AF So is being a dedicated hater to be honest
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Jun 5, 2017 18:43
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Serotonin posted:I know its damning the game with faint praise but its perfect for young kids. The new 40k looks similar the and the kids are excited by the aesthetic. It's like how Harry Potter was going to save the literacy of a generation, but now you have a bunch of thirty-year-olds debating the canon of the "potterverse" (Or comic books)
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Jun 5, 2017 18:47
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anti_strunt posted:It's like how Harry Potter was going to save the literacy of a generation, but now you have a bunch of thirty-year-olds debating the canon of the "potterverse" Thats the risk I guess. Ive been wargaming for 34 years now (yes Im old as poo poo) but I have actually had fun playing AoS. Its got some weird design decisions and the usual annoying GW stuff (loving true LOS) but its still been enjoyable. To be fair I enjoy most wargames I've ever played. Except Infinity(jesus gently caress that stupid game). I dont expect that to be a popular viewpoint in this thread though, so sorry.
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Jun 5, 2017 18:51
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anti_strunt posted:Alright, I wasn't following WFB for years before the Sigmocalypse, when did the escalation to stuff like the new Nagash start? I'm pretty sure GW had started giving every race a big gribbly before the colossals hit. There was that period where orcs got the huge spider, DE got their hydra, TK got the huge sphinx thing.
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Jun 5, 2017 18:51
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Serotonin posted:Yeah the rules are pretty tight and make a great tournament game. My problem with is has been the level of complexity is way too high for my kids who want to get into wargaming, They loved the appeal of big heroic casters etc pulling off cool stuff, but all the complexities of the synergies etc left them totally out of their depth. We tried Kings of War and that also left them cold as it doesnt really have that heroic factor of big models doing cool poo poo with super hero like powers. Against my better judgement we picked up[ a couple of Age of Sigmar start collecting sets and the kids have loved it. I always felt, no snarkyness intended, that GW made a pretty solid business move with AoS where they seemed to consciously refocus the WHFB line for kids. There's this weird thing in the miniatures world where the prime age for getting loving hype about elves riding dragons and badnasty darkwarriors called Badnasty Darkwarriors is in the early teens, if not earlier. Everyone I know who's into minis in my area started at that age. But NOBODY caters to them, games like Infinity and Warmachine, while great games, really cater to adults who grew up with this poo poo while nobody caters to the prime age for entering the hobby. Well, I suppose X-Wing and Heroclix do, and those are, as far as I know, the best selling minis games in the world. GW found it's market and refocused to it. It's not for me at all, but not everything has to be.
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Jun 5, 2017 18:52
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Hra Mormo posted:I always felt, no snarkyness intended, that GW made a pretty solid business move with AoS where they seemed to consciously refocus the WHFB line for kids. There's this weird thing in the miniatures world where the prime age for getting loving hype about elves riding dragons and badnasty darkwarriors called Badnasty Darkwarriors is in the early teens, if not earlier. Everyone I know who's into minis in my area started at that age. But NOBODY caters to them, games like Infinity and Warmachine, while great games, really cater to adults who grew up with this poo poo while nobody caters to the prime age for entering the hobby. Well, I suppose X-Wing and Heroclix do, and those are, as far as I know, the best selling minis games in the world. Yeah Ive had that chat about AOS in my LGS a few times in total good faith then caught myself thinking 'gently caress that sounds snarky as gently caress calling it perfect for young kids'. Also some of the design decisions Ive always struggled with like shooting while engaged in combat have made perfect sense to the kids Im playing with. They've watched LOTR, they've seen Legolas shoot his bow while fighing Orcs, why cant my guys fire their bows? everything in my wargaming grogy soul screams its wrong , but me, they like it.
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Jun 5, 2017 18:54
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Serotonin posted:Except Infinity(jesus gently caress that stupid game). I dont expect that to be a popular viewpoint in this thread though, so sorry. What was your issue with Infinity? (There are some to be had.)
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Jun 5, 2017 18:55
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anti_strunt posted:What was your issue with Infinity? (There are some to be had.) We tried the latest edition and the one before that. I loved a lot of the minis. Ok not THOSE ones, but most were cool. Most of the games we played ended up with someone hiding a load of lovely cheap troops at the back of the board to gain activations, then deep striking ( or whatever its called) one or two super elite guy with a HMG in and wiping out the opponents force pretty much first turn by taking all the activations. Im sure it was down to our bad lists and understanding of the game and its tactics, but it really soured me on it. I just didnt like the whole being able to do multiple activations without penalty issue. Made no sense to me. I always wished you had limited activations per model if that makes sense. It was one of the only games Ive ever felt like rage quitting mid game. On the plus side I made a bit of profit selling my painted Haq force.
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Jun 5, 2017 19:00
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Ashcans posted:I'm pretty sure GW had started giving every race a big gribbly before the colossals hit. There was that period where orcs got the huge spider, DE got their hydra, TK got the huge sphinx thing. Alright, for some reason I'm trying to research this! For WFB I found an Amazon link for a Finecast Warhydra with a date of 2011. For WMH I found a review of the first Colossals from 2012. Does that make sense to more knowledgeable folk?
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Jun 5, 2017 19:05
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Serotonin posted:We tried the latest edition and the one before that. I loved a lot of the minis. Ok not THOSE ones, but most were cool. Most of the games we played ended up with someone hiding a load of lovely cheap troops at the back of the board to gain activations, then deep striking ( or whatever its called) one or two super elite guy with a HMG in and wiping out the opponents force pretty much first turn by taking all the activations. Yeah, the learning curve is a cliff for new players. It's perfect for people who like DOTA/League types of games where there's powerful combos and synergy, but it takes a lot of in-depth game knowledge to be decent at them. There was a dude who showed me the nicer parts of the game (as a demo, not against a new player), and he used his warjack as a wrecking ball that tossed a bunch of dudes in the air, stunned a warcaster, and something made it explode to instakill the caster and end the game in a single turn.
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Jun 5, 2017 19:08
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Serotonin posted:As an owner of a Mantic Kings of War mega army deal (that I got at a 50% discount) I agree they are a massive lot of minis for your money. This guy gets it
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Jun 5, 2017 19:08
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Ashcans posted:I'm pretty sure GW had started giving every race a big gribbly before the colossals hit. There was that period where orcs got the huge spider, DE got their hydra, TK got the huge sphinx thing. All of those are more analogous to battle engines in PP. $50-60 dollar heavy hitter anchors to your army. Though those things have been a center piece for WH Armies ever since I got into the game the first time back in the 90s with most factions being able to take dragons, giants or steam tanks. PP definitely started putting out gargantuans and collosi before GW did. And both companies have the same problem with them, giant $130 centerpieces that are a bitch to transport anywhere and each one is either hobbled by bad rules to be near useless or so powerful they can handle whole Armies by themselves. My only real experience is with GW, Infinity, PP and Malifaux. The individual models all tend to be priced similarly, it's just that the last three's games can all be played with way fewer models than GW. One thing I can appreciate with 8th is that while troops, usually an armies' cheapest option (money wise) stayed the same for points value, everything else has had their points value increased lowering the bar for entry and making game sizes smaller.
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Jun 5, 2017 19:12
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Hra Mormo posted:I always felt, no snarkyness intended, that GW made a pretty solid business move with AoS where they seemed to consciously refocus the WHFB line for kids. There's this weird thing in the miniatures world where the prime age for getting loving hype about elves riding dragons and badnasty darkwarriors called Badnasty Darkwarriors is in the early teens, if not earlier. Everyone I know who's into minis in my area started at that age. But NOBODY caters to them, games like Infinity and Warmachine, while great games, really cater to adults who grew up with this poo poo while nobody caters to the prime age for entering the hobby. Well, I suppose X-Wing and Heroclix do, and those are, as far as I know, the best selling minis games in the world. Honestly if they'd released AoS as a separate thing and not blown up the Old World for it, they'd probably have gotten a lot less ill will. It's one thing to say "here is a new game, which is barely a game but whatever it has cool models and kids enjoy it," but throwing out 30 years of stuff people were deeply attached to and replacing it with a game which only faintly resembled its predecessor was some truly awful PR.
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Jun 5, 2017 19:15
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Canon ranking of people who care the most: 
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Jun 5, 2017 19:16
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Weve found AoS not too bad cost wise. We only play at 1000 points ( quick and easy for the kids, not too many models and units to worry about) and so far a start collecting box and a couple of other purchases have completed our 1000 point lists. Compared to the probably 1000 or so Ive spent on Warmachine it feels OK value.
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Jun 5, 2017 19:16
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Corrode posted:Honestly if they'd released AoS as a separate thing and not blown up the Old World for it, they'd probably have gotten a lot less ill will. It's one thing to say "here is a new game, which is barely a game but whatever it has cool models and kids enjoy it," but throwing out 30 years of stuff people were deeply attached to and replacing it with a game which only faintly resembled its predecessor was some truly awful PR. Yeah I never got why they did that. The whole AOS release was some monumentally badly handled poo poo.
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Jun 5, 2017 19:17
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I'm glad that FFG decided not to have "epic ships" be part of the normal game. Transporting those giant things would be horrendous. quote:My only real experience is with GW, Infinity, PP and Malifaux. The individual models all tend to be priced similarly, it's just that the last three's games can all be played with way fewer models than GW.
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Jun 5, 2017 19:19
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TTerrible posted:Canon ranking of people who care the most: I'm thinking about posting until I hit the funny number, but then I wouldn't be able to post in my favorite chat thread 
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Jun 5, 2017 19:19
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:All of those are more analogous to battle engines in PP. $50-60 dollar heavy hitter anchors to your army. Though those things have been a center piece for WH Armies ever since I got into the game the first time back in the 90s with most factions being able to take dragons, giants or steam tanks. Kind of what I expected, very interesting! Macdeo Lurjtux posted:One thing I can appreciate with 8th is that while troops, usually an armies' cheapest option (money wise) stayed the same for points value, everything else has had their points value increased lowering the bar for entry and making game sizes smaller. As has been repeatedly stated in the 40K thread this does not necessarily follow. If you wish to play at old point levels, you'll need fewer models, but if you wish to play at old army sizes you just increase the points. If people have the same toys they had before, why should they suddenly want to play with fewer of them? If they wanted shorter games, why didn't they play smaller games? Macdeo Lurjtux posted:My only real experience is with GW, Infinity, PP and Malifaux. The individual models all tend to be priced similarly, it's just that the last three's games can all be played with way fewer models than GW. This is really the crux of the matter. The reason 40K games can balloon so obscenely is because it, being a game of more primitive design, is rather tactically flat, with a relatively limited set of tactically relevant interactions available at any time. This means that as model count goes up, tactical complexity increases only in a linear fashion, unlike for an Infinity game where it increases, if not geometrically, at least far quicker. In other words, as 40K grows it grows more in tedium than in complexity. PoontifexMacksimus fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Jun 5, 2017 |
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Jun 5, 2017 19:34
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Infinity's biggest problem from my POV is that their dreadnought size mechs are still metal. There's no excuse for that in tyool 2017.
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Jun 5, 2017 19:46
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Not that this is the place for good faith arguing, but with SW:A GW now has a reasonable path for a player to start with a small force and grow an army. You can buy an infantry box, make an SW:A team, then add a start collecting box and have a small army, then fill it out with other stuff until you're at a full sized army. There's a logical progression that was totally absent a few years ago. Warmahordes in my area tends to be pretty cutthroat- there's journeyman leagues occasionally but the large majority of activity is steamroller tourneys, and those honestly require about the same level of expense as getting a full GW army since you need two 75 point lists that don't have a lot of overlap to avoid getting totally stomped.
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Jun 5, 2017 19:48
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TTerrible posted:Canon ranking of people who care the most: I officially care more than Avenging Dentist
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Jun 5, 2017 19:48
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anti_strunt posted:As has been repeatedly stated in the 40K thread this does not necessarily follow. If you wish to play at old point levels, you'll need fewer models, but if you wish to play at old army sizes you just increase the points. Well it's an interesting situation since the trend since 3rd edition is that every new edition point values have gone down, not up. And ever since 2nd 1500- 2000 point games have been the staple so it bears to be seen which way the game will go. Also, note that I was talking about the bar for entry, I.e. The size of a force a new player needs to begin playing games. A start collecting box and a troop+transport bundle can get most Armies to the new 1000 point mark and playing games. Most players aren't going to refuse to play at that level just because they have more models than necessary.
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Jun 5, 2017 19:53
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TTerrible posted:Canon ranking of people who care the most: Yeah but what if all their posts are about how much they don't care?
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