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Which Thread Title shall we name this new thread? This poll is closed. |
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| Independence Day 2: Resturgeonce |
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44 | 21.36% |
| ScotPol - Unclustering this gently caress |
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19 | 9.22% |
| Trainspotting 2: Independence is my heroin |
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9 | 4.37% |
| Indyref II: Boris hosed a Dead Country |
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14 | 6.80% |
| ScotPol: Wings over Bullshit |
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8 | 3.88% |
| Independence 2: Cameron Lied, UK Died |
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24 | 11.65% |
| Scotpol IV: I Vow To Flee My Country |
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14 | 6.80% |
| ScotPol - A twice in a generation thread |
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17 | 8.25% |
| ScotPol - Where Everything's hosed Up and the Referendums Don't Matter |
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15 | 7.28% |
| ScotPol Thread: Dependence Referendum Incoming |
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2 | 0.97% |
| Indyref II: The Scottish Insturgeoncy |
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10 | 4.85% |
| ScotPol Thread: Act of European Union |
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5 | 2.43% |
| ScotPol - Like Game of Thrones only we wish we would all die |
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25 | 12.14% |
| Total: | 206 votes | ||
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Baron Corbyn posted:Britain Elects's NowCast now has East Renfrewshire and Edinburgh North and Leith as likely to go to Labour. Good eggs or bad eggs running in those seats?
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Jun 7, 2017 14:58
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It doesn't matter, because East Ren will go Tory.
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Jun 7, 2017 15:19
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Oh my god, Blair McDougall, really? For fucksake. Scottish Labour are trash
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Jun 7, 2017 15:25
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if the Tories get in on the backs of a handful of Scottish seats my poo poo will be so lost it will it will pass into myth. it will take archaeologists generations to find my poo poo
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Jun 7, 2017 15:27
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Coohoolin posted:Socialism needs decentralisation, atomising down imperial legacies like the loving UK seems an obvious prerequisite.
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Jun 7, 2017 15:33
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CoolCab posted:if the Tories get in on the backs of a handful of Scottish seats my poo poo will be so lost it will it will pass into myth. it will take archaeologists generations to find my poo poo If the Tories get in off the backs of a handful of Scottish seats it's probably worth looking at how they managed to win 300+ seats in England & Wales before combusting about Scotland.
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Jun 7, 2017 15:33
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Cat Machine posted:but I'm also kinda tempted to give Patrick Harvie some support If you like Caroline Lucas then Patrick Harvie is pretty much the same but bolder. No pun intended. Considering the last time the Scottish parliament election was close between SNP & Green in the FPTP part of it. It wouldn't be a bad idea but keep in my mind this is the General Election and the SNP would no doubt get some advantage because people will be tactical with their voting. Then again. 2015 happened. forkboy84 posted:If the Tories get in off the backs of a handful of Scottish seats it's probably worth looking at how they managed to win 300+ seats in England & Wales before combusting about Scotland. But enough about how England isn't the problem. mehall posted:It doesn't matter, because East Ren will go Tory. Pretty much. I be surprised if the SNP keep that seat.
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Jun 7, 2017 15:54
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Coohoolin posted:Pfff, what a lack of ambition. Corbyn is a normal European social democrat, we could go a lot further.
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Jun 7, 2017 15:59
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A Buttery Pastry posted:When you say "normal European social democrat", I assume you don't mean an actual normal European social democrat, because that's a pro-market privatizing liberal. Yea I was about to say. I say Corbyn is an actual true Social Democrat rather than the infested third-way 'social' democrats that plague europe.
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Jun 7, 2017 16:04
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Coohoolin posted:Socialism needs decentralisation, atomising down imperial legacies like the loving UK seems an obvious prerequisite. You're Swiss aren't you, how's socialism working out in Switzerland? More people in Scotland are going to vote for right or centrist parties in the Election tomorrow than vote for left wing parties. You can't cast up FPTP as the reason for people voting Tory, they're going to vote Tory because they want to and feel it's the right choice. Trying to characterise Scotland as less racist than England is loving ludicrous.
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Jun 7, 2017 16:27
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Extreme0 posted:If you like Caroline Lucas then Patrick Harvie is pretty much the same but balder. Fixed for you.
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Jun 7, 2017 16:27
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Aramoro posted:Fixed for you. I was well aware of the joke when I made my reply.
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Jun 7, 2017 16:31
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Aramoro posted:You're Swiss aren't you, how's socialism working out in Switzerland? The biggest party in Scotland, and the party that governs Scotland, is openly, explicitly, and constantly pro-immigration and pro-internationalism in a way that Labour is not, and could not be for any electoral success.
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Jun 7, 2017 16:35
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Coohoolin posted:The biggest party in Scotland, and the party that governs Scotland, is openly, explicitly, and constantly pro-immigration and pro-internationalism in a way that Labour is not, and could not be for any electoral success. That''s a bit of a non-sequitur statement and doesn't address anything I said in my post. Scotland is easily as racist as England in general. The pro-immigration stance of the governing party doesn't alter that at all. The SNP did not get elected on their immigration stance, they could have has any stance and it would have made no measurable difference to their polling figures.
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Jun 7, 2017 16:39
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Aramoro posted:That''s a bit of a non-sequitur statement and doesn't address anything I said in my post. If a party running in England was as pro-immigration as the SNP they'd get hammered for it. That much is obvious. I don't respond to anything else because comparing Switzerland to Scotland is utterly inane.
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Jun 7, 2017 16:41
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Didn't one of their recent manifestos support a points-based immigration system? Or was that the white paper? One or the other.
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Jun 7, 2017 16:43
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Coohoolin posted:I don't respond to anything else because comparing Switzerland to Scotland is utterly inane. I made the comparison because you seem to have this weird belief that the Scottish people are innately left wing, some latent socialism that's just waiting to be unlocked by independence. What I don't get is why you think this is true for Scotland and not any other country. Like why is it not true for Switzerland or any other small country. Certainly no polling backs up your idea, so where's it coming from?
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Jun 7, 2017 16:45
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Extreme0 posted:If you like Caroline Lucas then Patrick Harvie is pretty much the same but bolder.
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Jun 7, 2017 16:48
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cargohills posted:Didn't one of their recent manifestos support a points-based immigration system? Or was that the white paper? One or the other. The points based immigration system was suggested in the White Paper, not sure they've made any statements outside of that. Edit: Their current policy is a bit of a platitude and a call to reintroduce post work study visas, which is understandable as that was in the news so they want to sound like they care about it. In this BBC Poll from 2015 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-31800374 suggests there's a slight difference in opinion between Scotland and England but still a majority in favour of reducing immigration. Though there are issues with the polling and comparisons they make as they're collating data from different polls taken at different times. Aramoro fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Jun 7, 2017 |
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Jun 7, 2017 16:49
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For whoever it was asking about Edinburgh North and Leith, Gordon Munro is a Cool and Good socialist Momentum type.
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Jun 7, 2017 16:56
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Aramoro posted:I made the comparison because you seem to have this weird belief that the Scottish people are innately left wing, some latent socialism that's just waiting to be unlocked by independence. What I don't get is why you think this is true for Scotland and not any other country. Like why is it not true for Switzerland or any other small country. First of all, the polling- it's not really relevant, but the fact that the Tories have a much lower vote share in Scotland, that Brexit was overwhelmingly voted against, that Scotland hasn't voted Tory in loving donkeys, that doesn't mean anything to you? It also sounds like you're ignoring the fact that most Scottish socialists vote SNP in general elections. You're also misrepresenting what I said. I didn't say it was automatically to happen upon independence. I said independence is a prerequisite if it is EVER going to happen. But regardless, here's an actually interesting answer that's not just deflecting your boring gotchas: There's nothing innate about it. Political culture is a cycle of reflective influence between the electorate, the media, and the political institutions, and in Scotland this has led (thanks to effective pro-immigration messaging) to a far more left-wing climate than in England. It's a structural consequence various historical conditions and the narrative dominance at play up here. If you really want to talk about Switzerland, I could point out that every Swiss resident (not citizen) automatically has their wages negotiated by a trade union, resulting in massive wages; that Swiss welfare structures try to find the right job for you (a graduate is told to ignore anything that doesn't require a degree in their field); that Swiss higher education is free at the point of use; that all these things are considered sacrosanct and no party, not even the far right shitheel SVP, would be able or willing to take them apart. Of course, at the same time, being a rich small country surrounded by poorer neighbours, the Swiss are also incredibly racist. It's not an innate characteristic, it's the result of geopolitical and historical developments specific to that country. What IS true is that it's a lot easier for a small but dedicated group of political radicals to affect significant change in a smaller, more localised nation-state.
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Jun 7, 2017 17:02
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Coohoolin posted:First of all, the polling- it's not really relevant, but the fact that the Tories have a much lower vote share in Scotland, that Brexit was overwhelmingly voted against, that Scotland hasn't voted Tory in loving donkeys, that doesn't mean anything to you? It also sounds like you're ignoring the fact that most Scottish socialists vote SNP in general elections. I'm not ignoring Scotland's voting record, As you mentioned later there's a natural cycle to politics and previous Scotland returned solid tory votes which moved to Labour then to the SNP. But nothing there suggests actually Socialists. I would be interested to see you backup your claim that most Scottish socialist votes SNP though, and hoe many there are. Not because I think you're wrong, I'm genuinely interested in where you got this from. Coohoolin posted:You're also misrepresenting what I said. I didn't say it was automatically to happen upon independence. I said independence is a prerequisite if it is EVER going to happen. But regardless, here's an actually interesting answer that's not just deflecting your boring gotchas: Not really gotcha's just trying to actually clarify what you mean. Do you accept then that Scotland is not necessarily more socialist than England? Just that if it were independent it would be easier to campaign for Socialism. Coohoolin posted:There's nothing innate about it. Political culture is a cycle of reflective influence between the electorate, the media, and the political institutions, and in Scotland this has led (thanks to effective pro-immigration messaging) to a far more left-wing climate than in England. It's a structural consequence various historical conditions and the narrative dominance at play up here. I totally agree it's far easier for a smaller group of motivated people to swing political opinion in a smaller country. So it would be easier to try to swing the balance towards socialism. But at the same time Scotland is just as racist as Switzerland or even England. I think Switzerland is a really great example of protected rights and a strong welfare state which is required for a progressive society despite being ruled by right-wing scum. This level of protection was not outlined in the last white paper on Independence which makes it feel like the SNP are not aiming for such a thing, which to my mind is a bad thing. Aramoro fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jun 7, 2017 |
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Jun 7, 2017 17:15
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Coohoolin posted:The biggest party in Scotland, and the party that governs Scotland, is openly, explicitly, and constantly pro-immigration and pro-internationalism. So are the Lib Dems. The SNP are, pretty explicitly, Blair-style thirdwayish liberals. I mean, I dont even think that's a terrible thing although it's not my preference, but complaining Corbyn isn't left wing enough while defending the SNP's left wing credentials doesn't do much to help your argument
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Jun 7, 2017 17:32
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Not gonna quote bit by bit because time. There is a large SNP Socialists group within the party. Most SSP/RISE/assorted lefties I know will vote SNP in the GE because independence can have socialism piggy backed onto it yadda yadda. The vast majority of socialist proponents and writers and activists etc are pro-independence and recognise the SNP is the most effective way to get there at this time. I don't have any data or anything, this is just the result of me having spent 7 years in Scottish socialist circles as an activist, writer, and campaign organiser. I never Scotland is "more socialist" than England. I said it's less racist, which to me is backed up by the fact that the SNP can be massively pro-immigration without suffering electorally from it, and by the vast majority of Scotland v England experiences myself and every foreigner I know have encountered. And trust me, very very few countries are quite as racist as Switzerland, or at least in the same way. When you apply for naturalisation, your local community has to sign off on you. You get stuff like this sometimes (Dutch woman denied passport because she was a vegan campaigning against cowbells and annoyed everyone): http://www.cntraveler.com/story/dutch-woman-denied-swiss-passport-for-being-annoying Switzerland is loving nuts. But the good things are protected, and one of my biggest reasons for wanting independence, for example, is the chance to have these things codified in a proper constitution. The SNP, despite the weakness of the white paper, were pretty drat big on a constitution. There's more but I'm a bit bleargh at the moment.
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Jun 7, 2017 17:38
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For what it's worth, would still vote Yes even with PM Jezza. Would be much happier with our neighbours though. Also believe SNP would disintegrate and or splinter post indy, and if you need convincing of that, tell me how UKIP are doing now they have effectively achieved their core purpose. Conversely to Coohoolin, most leftie Yessers I know are voting for Corbyn. Not all, but most. EDIT: On a cheerier note, Happy Fringe Brochure-mas cultured goons! Acaila fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Jun 7, 2017 |
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Jun 7, 2017 17:42
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Coohoolin posted:First of all, the polling- it's not really relevant, but the fact that the Tories have a much lower vote share in Scotland, that Brexit was overwhelmingly voted against, that Scotland hasn't voted Tory in loving donkeys, that doesn't mean anything to you? You're living in a city that went from three Tory councillors to eleven last month, so I'd say that last doesn't mean anything to me.
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Jun 7, 2017 19:00
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Coohoolin posted:the SNP conference routinely passes really left wing motions, quote:Holyrood tax raising powers aren't actually all that effective. quote:What IS true is that it's a lot easier for a small but dedicated group of political radicals to affect significant change in a smaller, more localised nation-state.
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Jun 7, 2017 21:09
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Coohoolin posted:The biggest party in Scotland, and the party that governs Scotland, is openly, explicitly, and constantly pro-immigration and pro-internationalism in a way that Labour is not, and could not be for any electoral success. Convenient that these two policy areas that you believe demonstrate the SNP's leftist credentials are also ones where they have absolutely no power over.
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Jun 7, 2017 21:16
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The average Scottish voter is more left wing, more socialist, but more racist than the average English voter, in my opinion as a non-white person who has lived more than a decade in both countries. But that big Coohoolin post up the page was at least well-reasoned and coherent, so fair play to him for that.
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Jun 7, 2017 23:07
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Coohoolin posted:There is a large SNP Socialists group within the party. Most SSP/RISE/assorted lefties I know will vote SNP in the GE because independence can have socialism piggy backed onto it yadda yadda. The vast majority of socialist proponents and writers and activists etc are pro-independence and recognise the SNP is the most effective way to get there at this time. I don't have any data or anything, this is just the result of me having spent 7 years in Scottish socialist circles as an activist, writer, and campaign organiser. Do you not think there's a chance of confirmation bias in that then? You've got no evidence but it's just something you feel is true. I', not doubting that socialists do vote for the SNP, I#m just doubting there's enough of them to make a difference pre or post independence. Coohoolin posted:I never Scotland is "more socialist" than England. I said it's less racist, which to me is backed up by the fact that the SNP can be massively pro-immigration without suffering electorally from it, and by the vast majority of Scotland v England experiences myself and every foreigner I know have encountered. But the SNP policy on immigration has been a points based system, a system last espoused by UKIP in this campaign. Though admittedly now they have no policy other than post study work visas because they got a lot of good press when we deported that couple from the highlands. Like someone else said, this is a policy they cannot actually affected so it's understandable it has little effect on their polling.
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Jun 8, 2017 09:00
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Hoops posted:The average Scottish voter is more left wing, more socialist, but more racist than the average English voter, in my opinion as a non-white person who has lived more than a decade in both countries. for what it's worth as a white person, I've never seen the casual racism in London or Oxford that I'd see regularly in Glasgow.
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Jun 8, 2017 18:10
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Well poo poo
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Jun 8, 2017 22:08
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Thats a hell of an exit poll
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Jun 8, 2017 22:08
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That's quite a thing.
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Jun 8, 2017 22:42
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Aramoro posted:Thats a hell of an exit poll Given how polls have gone recently I'll see you all in the morning for Prime Minster Tim Farron.
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Jun 8, 2017 22:56
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I wouldn't usually recommend it but Wing's twitter feed is a hilarious illustration of denial right now.
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Jun 8, 2017 22:57
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Strongness and stableness.
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Jun 8, 2017 23:39
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Mhairi Black apparently in trouble? Wow.
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Jun 8, 2017 23:41
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Leggsy posted:I wouldn't usually recommend it but Wing's twitter feed is a hilarious illustration of denial right now. I've been blocked by the oval office so I'll take your word right now that he is roasting his phone in a toaster.
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Jun 8, 2017 23:49
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| # ? May 11, 2024 09:54 |
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quote:The Tories are very hopeful in Gordon - the constituency of former SNP leader Alex Salmond, BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg says. quote:She says they are also very hopeful in Edinburgh South - the seat of Labour's Ian Murray.
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Jun 8, 2017 23:49
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