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CommonShore posted:I like how adding a single black soldier - and did they even make reference to his race? - has made an internet thread have a discussion about race by drawing into relief how segregated the past was. "Drawing into relief how segregated the past was?" What the hell are you talking about? Pretending that people in the past were happy go lucky nonracists is ignorant and accomplishes nothing.
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Jun 11, 2017 20:04
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Good ol' Doctor Who
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Cojawfee posted:"Drawing into relief how segregated the past was?" What the hell are you talking about? Pretending that people in the past were happy go lucky nonracists is ignorant and accomplishes nothing. Adding an unexpected black face to the soldiers made a whole bunch of people go  "mah history!"
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Jun 11, 2017 20:08
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The group had a guy who was hanged for desertion so maybe it wasn't an official British army unit.
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Jun 11, 2017 20:12
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Well, if there is any plot hole: The Colonel was hung, unsuccessfully, for desertion, right? How did he get back in charge of a regiment? Even if he survived the hanging, and (as I understand it) they considered that the end of the death penalty, how did he get another regiment? Wouldn't he have been discharged from the army? So they took him down from the rope and was like "well, you survived, how would you like to command a regiment?" Like, the black soldier might have been a little ahistorical, but it seems like something that could have happened, but I don't see the line between the guy getting hanged and then getting another command.
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Jun 11, 2017 20:22
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glowing-fish posted:Well, if there is any plot hole: Well he said that only the sergeant knew about it, so maybe he bought his way back in somehow. Maybe Gatiss got it from some movie or something. In reality, the Victorian army only really hung people for crimes like theft that would bring disrepute to the army in general. Desertion happened so much that they would just firing squad them and not bother with the public spectacle. There is one case though that is interesting: quote:In studying the various hangings in Regency England, it is surprising how often a hanging initially did not work. There were cases of the ropes breaking, being too long, not tied properly, and the scaffolding falling apart. This also occurred with military hangings. During the capture of Monte Video in Uruguay in 1807, a deserter was caught serving with the enemy and sentenced to be hanged: http://www.warof1812.ca/punish1.htm Note that in this case, transportation is shipping off to a penal colony like Australia. So cases where people have the hanging scars after deserting and were left alive did happen in very rare occasions. But even if he changed his identity and re-enlisted, recruits were medically examined just to prevent this sort of thing from happening. But he could maybe have greased the recruitment officer and got back in, working his way back up. It's possible. I'm not sure how he could've hidden the rope burns for his entire enlistment period, but I guess that's possible too. Anything's possible in fiction, and this has some bearing in historical fact. It'd be a perfect storm of events to create this character, but stranger things have happened and it's a decent enough backstory.
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Jun 11, 2017 20:59
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Ropes were sometimes too long. If I was being hung and my feet suddenly touched the ground I'd assume the whole court martial and execution was some sort of elaborate prank.
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Jun 11, 2017 21:07
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Military executions are one big screw up. After WWII, some random guy claimed to have experience as an executioner and he was improperly hanging Nazis for quite a while.
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Jun 11, 2017 21:09
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He's an officer. Which means he almost certainly comes from money and power, even if he doesn't have any himself. My guess is that he had the means to cover it up (probably by calling in every last favor from connected members of his family), and it cost him enough to make heading off to another planet with a spaceman they dug up to get gemstones seem like a good idea. (E. My entire knowledge of the 19th century British army comes from half-remembered Sharpe episodes I watched like a decade ago. I stand by my assessment.)
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Jun 11, 2017 21:16
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https://twitter.com/bbcdoctorwho/status/873932860863815680
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Jun 11, 2017 21:18
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Astroman posted:They even played with it in a cheeky way, when the white soldier brought the sergeant a drink and the black soldier was like "What about me?" and you expect it to be a race thing, but oh haha no, it's because the sergeant outranks him lol there was no discrimination in history! I've seen plenty of people On Line watch/play/read things with discrimination in them and say they don't want to see that sort of thing in escapist fiction because they see enough of it in real life
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Jun 11, 2017 21:20
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Doctor Who is about an alien with a machine that can go anywhere in space and time, and people want the show to be about the history of racism around the world and how no one can change it.
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Jun 11, 2017 21:30
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2house2fly posted:I've seen plenty of people On Line watch/play/read things with discrimination in them and say they don't want to see that sort of thing in escapist fiction because they see enough of it in real life On the other hand it can educate people without being heavy handed. As an American I'm hyperaware of race and race relations history here, but it was pretty eye opening to see the "No Coloureds" sign in Remembrance of the Daleks. "Oh wait, they had the same issues in the 60s? poo poo."  You don't have to make the episode about it but it seems unwise to candycoat it. Especially a couple episodes after the "history is a whitewash" line. It's also an "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" moment when 5 years ago I would have probably gotten into an argument with social justice types about them wanting more race and social justice commentary in Doctor Who and them calling me a racist for not wanting it so much. Now I'm racist for wanting historical racism acknowledged because it hurts the feelings of modern audiences and actors.  But times change I guess. In the 70s we could have penis shaped aliens in their full glory; now it's an eye on a blurry viewscreen! 
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Jun 11, 2017 21:33
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That's pretty rad. Say what you want about Moffat and Gatiss but they enjoy doing these little nods to the past just for the hell of it and that's cool.
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Jun 11, 2017 21:37
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Astroman posted:
I'm pretty sure it was too much for them then as well and that's why they put it into a cape.
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Jun 11, 2017 21:40
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remusclaw posted:I'm pretty sure it was too much for them then as well and that's why they put it into a cape. The cape just makes it...well, I'M not going to say it.
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Jun 11, 2017 22:03
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docbeard posted:He's an officer. Which means he almost certainly comes from money and power, even if he doesn't have any himself. My guess is that he had the means to cover it up (probably by calling in every last favor from connected members of his family), and it cost him enough to make heading off to another planet with a spaceman they dug up to get gemstones seem like a good idea. Possible. There is another way it could have gone. The major (? not sure, gonna call him a major) told the men to look at the colonel's "famous wounds". Later the colonel says the major has been 'bleeding him dry'.
He didn't have a plan for desertion, he just ran, and soon he ran into a small party including a superior officer and the major. The officer in charge recognised that he was running, and being a hard rear end had him executed on the spot. Hung from a tree, where other potential deserters would see what happens to cowards. The hanging failed. Soon after the party was attacked by the enemy, with the colonel and the major being the only survivors. Everyone else who knew about the attempted desertion is dead. The major was an opportunist, and offered to cover up the whole thing. The colonel had never deserted, oh no, he had simply been injured early in the battle, probably while doing something heroic. Resulting in "famous wounds". The major had found him and taken care of him until the battle was over and they were able to rejoin the rest of the army. Since then, the major has been 'bleeding him dry'. Blackmailing him for money and for promotions and commendations. He got himself assigned to the colonel's unit, easy enough considering the bond they supposedly shared. Now any time the colonel gets a promotion, pay raise or other opportunity, so does the major. The show just didn't have time to spell out the whole story, because it was too busy showing one soldier drugging another so he could rob the tomb and then maroon all the other men by stealing the only spaceship and going home. 
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Jun 11, 2017 22:53
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Maybe the soldiers were just nice and mostly non-racist. Maybe they're incredibly racist to him off-screen. Maybe the RHIP scene was a coded race thing. Or maybe a black person can be in a piece of fiction set in the past and have it not be about racism? If you're really desperate you can make up some reasoning for it however you like, but it doesn't matter one bit.
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Jun 11, 2017 23:22
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I thought it was a good and fun episode, much needed after last week's...misstep...and I enjoyed it thoroughly. I thought that presenting a black soldier in a Victorian regiment completely without comment, particularly in an episode that was otherwise very free with its criticisms of Victoriana, was a mistake (if probably a well-intentioned one). Not because it's historically impossible, not because of OH NO MY REALISMS, but because presenting history as friendlier to marginalized people than was actually the case does those people a disservice, in a way that presenting ridiculous things like time travel and space wizards and big stompy Martians does not. I thought both of those things, and see no contradiction between them.
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Jun 11, 2017 23:50
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I liked the use of characters from the past outside of the normal "historical episode" format. It was a simple episode really ("What if British Empire soldiers ran into aliens with superior technology?") but it was well-executed.
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Jun 11, 2017 23:59
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On an unrelated note (that is 1% speculation and 99% vastly unrealistic OH PLEASE OH PLEASE OH PLEASE)... As far as I know, Michelle Gomez has only ever said she won't be playing Missy any more after this year. (Do not feel the need to correct me on this.) And they've been playing extremely coy about whether and how this might not be a traditional regeneration story. What if, when Capaldi leaves, the Doctor doesn't so much regenerate as, well, die (or maybe he just retires), and a successfully-reformed Missy takes on the name of the Doctor in his memory? (I JUST WANT MICHELLE GOMEZ TO PLAY THE DOCTOR IS THAT SO MUCH TO ASK)
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Jun 12, 2017 00:05
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Making the main character of Doctor Who someone other than Doctor Who for any length of time seems like quite a bad idea.
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Jun 12, 2017 00:09
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cargohills posted:Making the main character of Doctor Who someone other than Doctor Who for any length of time seems like quite a bad idea. I mean, yeah, probably. (Maybe Capaldi will regenerate into her. A MAN CAN DREAM.)
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Jun 12, 2017 00:29
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I could see Missy's story going something like this: Missy genuinely reforms, final story meets Simms Master in full evil mode, dies and regenerates into new Master who decides he's tried evil and tried good and both are beneath him. Then we get an utterly amoral Master more like Delgado's. Hell, sometimes have him be on the side of the angels and keep us guessing. Maybe this is wishful thinking but after the election I'm hopeful about everything.
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Jun 12, 2017 00:50
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The Master does not reform. Any time the Master spends doing good is only for the sake of the laughs they will get when they inevitably return to form.
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Jun 12, 2017 01:04
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I personally did take the RHIP acene as coded racism against the regiment's one non-white (you don't pick that by accident, after all), but something else has struck me that could explain all this if it needs one. The commander was hanged for desertion, although we have noted that such a position at the time wasn't exactly one filled entirely on merit. His second in command is extremely power-hungry, untrustworthy and overconfident, seeming to have no regard for his fellow soldiers or the potential danger of his foes. Many of the other soldiers in the regiment didn't seem especially capable either, but that might be me not knowing Victorian military standards. Finally, the entire regiment hosed off on a spaceship to Mars, an expedition that I can't imagine would get approval or even consideration from anybody overseeing them. Maybe they're just a really lovely regiment. A group put together of people who the army doesn't want around but can't dismiss for Reasons, so they just get assigned to some outpost in the middle of nowhere where they can't gently caress anything up.
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Jun 12, 2017 01:08
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Cleretic posted:Maybe they're just a really lovely regiment. This is the impression I got, yeah.
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Jun 12, 2017 02:33
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This was an... okay episode. I really thought, right up until they displayed Alpha Centauri, that they were just going to go with its voice for fear of putting a big dick on the screen. The clumsier of Gatiss forced whimsy jokes were mostly absent right until the very end ("Frozen, it's a movie," groooooaaaan), and it's at least an attempt to condemn British imperialism, even if some of the execution was lacking. The Ice Warriors' weird military rules have always been sort of awkward for the writing, and there were portions of it that reminded me of a middling Big Finish episode (the deserter, the random triumphant way he was he spared, yadda yadda). In particular the "he doesn't represent us" stuff fell sort of flat, given whatever military action they were probably involved in before the were transported to Mars. I liked the first half a lot better than I liked the second half. Peter Capaldi, who was already amazing, has only gotten better this season, Pearl Mackie is incredible, and Matt Lucas really rounds things out. I almost wish we could see another season with the three of them working together. Anyway, I'm interested to see what Rona Munro's episode is like.
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Jun 12, 2017 04:22
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Bicyclops posted:Anyway, I'm interested to see what Rona Munro's episode is like. Straight up sequel to Survival. 
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Jun 12, 2017 04:35
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I liked having a fairly straightforward runaround with weird monsters on an alien planet for once. The visuals were fun and it had a nice classic Who atmosphere.
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Jun 12, 2017 07:20
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Astroman posted:Straight up sequel to Survival. Sadly both Hale and Pace are busy.
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Jun 12, 2017 09:15
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Man, the tumblr was strong in this episode. Why is it that anti-racists and anti-sexists are the only ones I ever see who even care what race or sex a character is? I don't remember Martha Jones having an episode-by-episode checklist of historically-relevant discrimination, new dates to reaffirm her sexual preference, and her vagina being a plot-point. I thought I would be used to this in the Moffat era. It just seems so unintentionally shallow.
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Jun 12, 2017 10:34
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hahaha what the gently caress is this ^^ ?
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Jun 12, 2017 11:41
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Chakram posted:Why is it that anti-racists and anti-sexists are the only ones I ever see who even care what race or sex a character is?
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Jun 12, 2017 11:42
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"The Shakespeare Code" had exactly the same moment as the frost fair episode where Martha has reservations about standing out as a black woman in Elizabethan London and the Doctor points out that history is more diverse than one is often taught. For the longest time I thought that was a Gatiss episode, because it feels incredibly like a Gatiss episode.
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Jun 12, 2017 12:23
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Gareth Roberts episode, who most recently co-wrote 'The Caretaker' with Moffat.
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Jun 12, 2017 12:27
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Indeed, I'd previously assumed it was Gatiss's spiritual sequel to "The Unquiet Dead".
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Jun 12, 2017 12:34
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Wheat Loaf posted:Indeed, I'd previously assumed it was Gatiss's spiritual sequel to "The Unquiet Dead". An episode so forgettable to me that I was writing up some thoughts I had on it before realizing I was actually thinking of The Idiot's Lantern and actually had no opinion whatsoever on The Unquiet Dead. The only thing I remember about The Unquiet Dead was having ghosts, and... Charles Dickens, I think? A famous British author of some kind.
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Jun 12, 2017 12:40
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God, there's only 3 more episodes left this season.
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Jun 12, 2017 12:46
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Bicyclops posted:The clumsier of Gatiss forced whimsy jokes were mostly absent right until the very end ("Frozen, it's a movie," groooooaaaan), Between that and the Lion King in Ten's first episode, maybe the Doctor just really likes Disney movies?
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Jun 12, 2017 13:43
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fractalairduct posted:Between that and the Lion King in Ten's first episode, maybe the Doctor just really likes Disney movies? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODXH61_fbp8
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Jun 12, 2017 14:05
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