|
i feel like it doesn't really count as 'completely optional' if it's needed for the true ending. putting it that way implies it just gives like a mask shard or charm or some poo poo. whatever someone's opinion of it is, trying to constantly paint it as something that people have to go above and beyond to go out of their way to do for something minor is kind of weird
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2017 17:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 00:01 |
|
|
Johnny Joestar posted:i feel like it doesn't really count as 'completely optional' if it's needed for the true ending. putting it that way implies it just gives like a mask shard or charm or some poo poo. whatever someone's opinion of it is, trying to constantly paint it as something that people have to go above and beyond to go out of their way to do for something minor is kind of weird Being blocked out of one boss fight and two cutscenes in a 20-30 hour game isn't a reason to go online and tell people their opinions are wrong. People are free to have their opinions, it just irks me when they act like there's no room for other reasonable people to disagree (not what you did, but the people I was responding to).
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2017 18:20
|
|
|
Calling the white palace optional is kind of misleading, especially since it means a couple other massive zones are also "optional" (I don't think you have any reason to clear the Queen's Garden if you aren't going for the true ending, and that zone fits in the game very well despite being on the same route). It's not like the true ending is super secret - a bunch of NPCs tell you that you should try to destroy the infection at the source rather than just seal it. I didn't think the White Palace platforming was necessarily bad, but it probably should not have been in the game. It was something like one of those forced stealth segments they always did in PS2 games. It asks the player to basically play a different game for a bit, but keeps the difficulty at the same level or greater. Plus, the visual design of "just regular saws, everywhere" and audio design of "constant buzzing, always" was disappointing considering how the rest of the game was designed. I sort of get the impression that the White Palace was one of the zones most damaged by budget/time constraints.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2017 20:51
|
|
|
Large sections of the White palace can be skipped with some thoughtful use of charms, or with careful observation.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2017 20:53
|
|
|
I'm sorry I opened this can of grubs.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2017 21:20
|
|
|
Applewhite posted:I'm sorry I opened this can of grubs. This has been the busiest this thread has been in a while. It's cool.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2017 21:30
|
|
|
In other news 1. I've been finding odd things to use the dream nail on and grabbing screenshots, clarifying some of the context of the Big Bad and the King. 2. I saw someone in a speedrun...escape during the False Knight fight. is it possible to break out of the room after the first "round"? Some of the routes I'm identifying are making me curious about a minimum kills run. I'm realizing a remarkable amount of stuff is obtainable/reachable without any killing. I've been going down the list, and I'm not sure you have to kill anything, ever. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Jun 11, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2017 21:59
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:In other news Yeah, there's a crack in the western wall that you can bust through once you finish the first phase of the fight. You won't be able to enter the City of Tears through the main gates if you skip him, though, since you won't have the city crest.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2017 22:13
|
|
|
OK, is a pacifist run doable? So much of this seems by design. Let's set aside the dreamers. What else has to die at your hands to complete the game?
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2017 23:19
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:OK, is a pacifist run doable? So much of this seems by design. Let's set aside the dreamers. What else has to die at your hands to complete the game? You have to beat the false knight, right? You definitely have to kill the bosses right before the dreamers, like the million rolling guys and the jellyfish. I might take a look at the map and try to figure out the others.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2017 23:40
|
|
|
Zinkraptor posted:You have to beat the false knight, right? You definitely have to kill the bosses right before the dreamers, like the million rolling guys and the jellyfish. I might take a look at the map and try to figure out the others. You don't have to beat the false knight- there are other ways into the city. I need to test the other two you mention.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2017 23:42
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:OK, is a pacifist run doable? So much of this seems by design. Let's set aside the dreamers. What else has to die at your hands to complete the game? Not by any sense of pacifist that I'm aware of. You must kill a large Balder to get to Greenpath, then beat up Hornet once to get the dash. You must kill the Watcher Knights to get to Lurien and you must kill Uumuu to get to Monomon -- these two fights are not in any way skippable to my knowledge. You obviously have to kill Hollow Knight himself.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2017 23:43
|
|
|
SirSamVimes posted:
That's something else on my list of features to look at, yeah. A fair few people have asked for it, and I'd love to see the screenshots people grab with it. No promises, but it might pop up in content pack 1 or 2! Also RE: White Palace. If it's any consolation, I had to play it through plenty of times myself without charms, and played harder configurations with fewer checkpoints haha. I'm not the one who designed it, so it was legit hard for me the first few times. I designed the Colosseum waves though, so if you raged out at the Trial of Fools you can blame me. I actually realised after release that I accidentally put in more enemies than I meant to in the bit with spikes at the bottom where you have to continually wall-jump. People dealt with it though, so oh well! The question of whether White Palace is or feels 'optional' is pretty interesting. Originally it was more detached from everything, but then we decided it would be a bit sad if it only lead to a powerup or something so we started thinking about how an 'alternate' ending could work. The idea is that you could finish the game without ever doing the hardest bits, but you could get a different outcome if you went for it. So in our minds, or from our point of view, we were adding content to the game by putting in a new ending behind White Palace as a reward for people who do it. But from a player's point of view, this feels more like we've taken the 'proper' ending of the game and locked it away behind the white palace, making people feel like they HAVE to do it. Not sure if that made sense, but It's an interesting difference between the perspective of us as devs and players that I've been thinking about recently a fair bit. Certainly a lesson I'll remember for future projects. Oh and regarding which bosses must be fought to finish the game, I think the list is: The two Elder Baldurs in Crossroads, the first Hornet encounter, Watcher Knights, Uumuu, Hollow Knight Interestingly, you don't actually 'kill' anything in a few of those fights. So a pacifist run is almost possible!
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 03:31
|
|
|
For what its worth, I don't really view White Palace as optional. Its technically optional but so much of the game is. If you just do the bare minimum the game is significantly shorter, so I think its safe to assume that most people are at least going to try to get the real ending. So its content I would very much expect the player to be experiencing. I've said pretty much everything others have about it before, but I'll add one more thing; I'd probably enjoy White Palace more if the platforming was exactly the same but had combat sections to break it up. The platforming would still be hard and I wouldn't like it, but it'd be a lot less exhausting if I had some fights to break up the endless dashing into sawblades.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 03:59
|
|
|
George Lazenby posted:That's something else on my list of features to look at, yeah. A fair few people have asked for it, and I'd love to see the screenshots people grab with it. No promises, but it might pop up in content pack 1 or 2! So was originally the Hollow Knight the only ending? You had to maintain the cycle?
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 04:01
|
|
|
George Lazenby posted:I designed the Colosseum waves though, so if you raged out at the Trial of Fools you can blame me. I actually realised after release that I accidentally put in more enemies than I meant to in the bit with spikes at the bottom where you have to continually wall-jump. People dealt with it though, so oh well! Curse you! Cuuuurse yooooou! (If it's any consolation, I enjoyed the White Palace, though I agree that it would've been way more spooky and therefore better if the saws were completely silent)
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 04:02
|
|
|
THE RADIANCE belongs in the real true final boss hall of fame if only for the badassitude of her intro. Seeing the Sun grow wings is a real "oh poo poo" moment in the best way. Pls make sure she makes a cameo in Wreck it Ralph II
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 04:06
|
|
|
Apparently I'm one of the only people who didn't block out my memories of all the other platforming sections that were in the game?
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 04:07
|
|
|
Augus posted:Apparently I'm one of the only people who didn't block out my memories of all the other platforming sections that were in the game? No I don't remember any either I just didn't want to say anything.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 04:10
|
|
|
Dancer posted:Being blocked out of one boss fight and two cutscenes in a 20-30 hour game isn't a reason to go online and tell people their opinions are wrong. People are free to have their opinions, it just irks me when they act like there's no room for other reasonable people to disagree (not what you did, but the people I was responding to). Can you stop being insufferably  so we can move on? Thanks.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 04:10
|
|
|
Applewhite posted:THE RADIANCE belongs in the real true final boss hall of fame if only for the badassitude of her intro. Seeing the Sun grow wings is a real "oh poo poo" moment in the best way. Pls make sure she makes a cameo in Wreck it Ralph II THE RADIANCE is a drat good boss fight, especially after the disappointment of how easy the Hollow Knight was.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 04:14
|
|
|
Augus posted:Apparently I'm one of the only people who didn't block out my memories of all the other platforming sections that were in the game? None of the other platforming sections are anywhere near as long and very few approach it in difficulty. The only ones where I had anywhere near the amount of trouble I went through as White Palace was reaching Nailmaster Oro without the tear, though I was really bad at nail bouncing then. The other was that one grub in Queen's Garden (you know the one).
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 04:16
|
|
|
Internet Kraken posted:None of the other platforming sections are anywhere near as long and very few approach it in difficulty. The only ones where I had anywhere near the amount of trouble I went through as White Palace was reaching Nailmaster Oro without the tear, though I was really bad at nail bouncing then. The other was that one grub in Queen's Garden (you know the one). Haha yeah. That grub... that grub. By the way, putting that one disappearing platform at the end of that segment is a masterstroke of evil. Oro was pretty difficult too, though I think that's more to do with the fact that segment is probably the first one most people encounter that requires them to be half decent at the bouncing. So basically the difficulty is just in learning an entirely new mechanic. It was good practice for that one room in Deepnest with the slow Garpedes though. That's the nice thing about the game though. Once you learn something, it feels pretty easy to repeat it and there is definitely a clear sense of progression in learning how to move and navigate through challenges. Not just getting new skills but the game is always actively putting you in new situations where you have to learn to use your existing skills just a bit better. I think that might be why White Palace is jarring. Everything up to that point is really organic and streamlined but the white palace, in terms of the sudden ramp in difficulty, and that the platform is very different than the base game might throw people off. I still liked it though.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 05:02
|
|
|
JuniperCake posted:That's the nice thing about the game though. Once you learn something, it feels pretty easy to repeat it and there is definitely a clear sense of progression in learning how to move and navigate through challenges. Not just getting new skills but the game is always actively putting you in new situations where you have to learn to use your existing skills just a bit better. I think that might be why White Palace is jarring. Everything up to that point is really organic and streamlined but the white palace, in terms of the sudden ramp in difficulty, and that the platform is very different than the base game might throw people off. I still liked it though. This is how I feel. Nail bouncing, etc. is all super easy after a bit, and while I'm not back to the White Palace in my Steel Soul playthrough, everything else has seemed so much easier, and it's a bit of a relief to not be flailing about. I get to make my lil Vessel look like a real pro~
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 05:59
|
|
|
Not intending to be contrarian; I loved the White Palace, however I also loved the escape sequences in Ori and the Blind Forest. Those levels, and the White Palace, felt like the platforming equivalent to a boss, and I really appreciated it's inclusion, particularly in a game with platforming as tight as Hollow Knight.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 06:10
|
|
|
as someone who enjoyed super meat boy quite a lot i kind of bounced off of the white palace because hollow knight isn't a game set up for you to continuously retry 1-hit 'death' scenarios. unless you use the regen charm, which means you have to stand around with your thumb up your rear end after every attempt if you want to keep going without having to start over from the last bench. it was just weirdly incongruous with the rest of the game. at least with the coliseum you had a chance to utilize your array of charms and try out different things instead of ramming your head into a buzzsaw repeatedly until you start going snowblind from all the white
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 06:42
|
|
|
The biggest thing for me is how out of place is feels. Visually and thematically it's totally out of wack with the whole rest of the game. Everything else is this really cool fresh world filled with characters and a great ambience to everything. Then you're tossed into a sheer white dream palace with buzz saws and randomly placed spikes. It just feels out of place. It also throws a high difficult platforming level at you when the next hardest thing is considerably easier than that. Just really feels out of place.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 07:44
|
|
|
I really like getting a serious platforming challenge. The game's controls are tight and fun enough that it deserved an area that really tests your skill at mobility.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 08:18
|
|
|
SirSamVimes posted:I really like getting a serious platforming challenge. The game's controls are tight and fun enough that it deserved an area that really tests your skill at mobility. This, the game feels really good and there are so many spots that just tease at pushing you to do some really tight jumps
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 08:24
|
|
|
In the end, if you're not enjoying a particular challenge, you don't have to do it. Look up the 100% ending on YouTube. Nobody reasonable will judge you. You don't have to do the White Palace if you don't want to. You don't have to do the Trial of Fools if you don't want to. Those areas are there if you want the utmost challenge from the platforming and battle mechanics the game has taught you to use up to that point. Just play the parts of the game that you enjoy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 08:56
|
|
|
funktopus posted:In the end, if you're not enjoying a particular challenge, you don't have to do it. Look up the 100% ending on YouTube. Nobody reasonable will judge you. No! I am a serious gamer and I will play until my thumbs bleed if that's what it takes to get 3 extra seconds of footage after the credits!!! I find the existence of anyone who would do less viscerally offensive.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 09:07
|
|
|
Applewhite posted:No! I am a serious gamer and I will play until my thumbs bleed if that's what it takes to get 3 extra seconds of footage after the credits!!! I find the existence of anyone who would do less viscerally offensive. Well I have news for you then. http://hollowknight.wikia.com/wiki/Mister_Mushroom
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 11:31
|
|
|
I managed to finish off the white palace last night and although I didn't enjoy it as much as other areas of the game I do appreciate it made me much better at platforming. Went straight back and got the queens garden grub first time.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 13:03
|
|
|
I think the white palace should just add more checkpoints or soul refills within the segments. The platforming is fine but you go too far back if you die during one of the segments. I honestly think you could add a bench (or soul refill) at the halfway point of the three segments and 75% of the negative reactions would disappear instantly. You would still have to mechanically perform all the required jumps but the time tax of failure and frustration is limited considerably
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 14:28
|
|
|
For those of you who wanted to listen to a podcast talk about hollow knight for two hours (part one), here you go. https://player.fm/series/bonfireside-chat-a-dark-souls-and-bloodborne-podcast/episode-120-hollow-knight-part-1
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 14:32
|
|
|
funktopus posted:In the end, if you're not enjoying a particular challenge, you don't have to do it. Look up the 100% ending on YouTube. Nobody reasonable will judge you. Everything immediately before and immediately after the white palace on the true end route is a lot more reasonable. If the white palace was actually as optional as the trial of fools, it'd be a lot less controversial. But the actual final boss of the game is gates behind it, and that boss is really well designed. As is everything else on the true end route. The white palace just should've been placed differently. Hollow Knight is the best metroidvania in like, a decade, but it's still got flaws.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 16:44
|
|
|
George Lazenby posted:
Really, it's your own drat fault for making me get invested in the world and the characters and their situation, and then making the reward for it so drat excellent. The best rewards for optional hard stuff, for me, are more bosses. And The Radiance is one INCREDIBLE reward You should have known better than to make everything that follows so drat cool and good.  Shame on you and your breathtaking sense of craft and artistry.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 22:32
|
|
|
FisheyStix posted:Really, it's your own drat fault for making me get invested in the world and the characters and their situation, and then making the reward for it so drat excellent. I have only one criticism for the above spoiler and it was every time, every time you want to make an attempt on The Radiance when you're still learning the fight you have to do the entire Hollow Knight fight first. This sucks first when HK isn't down to muscle memory and is 2-3 minutes of busywork, and sucks again when you do have him down to muscle memory from repeated attempts and it's a pointless 30 second button mash before you can actually get to the good stuff. At that point, like, why bother? You're just wasting the player's time, not a lot, but enough. Just have a bunch of dream circles floating out of the HK's room when you respawn at the bench or something, and move right on to the actual boss when you enter. That's a long, critical spoiler, so let me balance it out by saying The Radiance is a poo poo-hot awesome fight and both it and the HK's themes are among my favorite tracks and more or less got a soundtrack purchase on their strength alone. So, yay!
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 22:58
|
|
|
I wasn't too bothered by the double boss fight because the first one is easily and, more importantly, refills your health. It got old doing it but it didn't require me to actually play well the entire time so I could take it easy before getting destroyed by the real fight again. It does make it somewhat pointless though, so I won't call it good design, but it didn't significantly detract from my enjoyment of the ending. I'll take that fight any day over From's bullshit multi-phase fights. I still have nightmares about Friede.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2017 23:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 00:01 |
|
|
See I'm a fan of the multi-phase fight. I was honestly disappointed that Hollow Knight didn't bust out a "Final Form" on me, so to speak. Ofc THE RADIANCE made up for it but at the time HK was kind of a letdown. I'm definitely a sucker for the boss seeming like he's dead and then metamorphosing into something awesome and terrifying.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 01:38
|
|