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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
| M |
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65 | 21.52% |
| Total: | 229 votes | ||
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It occurred to me while reading that FPD article that the progressive wing needs to rebrand as the 'positive wing'. If the brass wants to not commit to positive changes at least they would have to tap dance harder.
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Jun 12, 2017 18:29
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So can anyone more familiar with Socialism or "true Left Wing" politics tell me where Bernie ranks? I know he's probably a moderate compared to, I dunno, Lenin or something but I'm mostly wondering because someone I was talking to said the "socialism" we have here in the US is just a typical liberal co-opting a term and that there is no growing class consciousness here. I'm pretty Progressive, I think? I support Sanders and Corbyn at any rate. But maybe they aren't actually all that radical. I wouldn't really know.
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Jun 12, 2017 18:40
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icantfindaname posted:Corbyn's not even that left wing, his "unelectability" is mostly a result of wacky foreign policy positions, not domestic economic ones I mean, the guy still wants to nationalize public transportation. It's not very left, but compared to THE WINDOW he might as well be Lenin. And the alarm at Corbyn was because of those economic policies. His wacky foreign policy positions were just a way for Murdoch and co to attack him constantly, and no matter how many challengers Corbyn turns to dust whenever someone in Labour tries to push him out, he'll still be "unelectable." Like, someday people will look back and point out the skulls outside his cave and go "Hey, maybe the people who vote actually.... liked him? A lot?" Granted, Labour became a four letter word after Blair, since he moved to the center because it was the new fad and nothing that people who voted for labour wanted actually happened, and that kind of hosed the party real hard.
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Jun 12, 2017 18:48
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Sanders is definitely further right than the labour party at least on a policy level. He's got a few good things on the foreign policy level but they barely scratch the surface. He opposed the contras, sort of, and thinks Iran sanctions are bad although his stated reasons are in-line with the DC Consensus. Meanwhile Corbyn wants to prosecute Blair for war crimes, was one of the people who pushed for the extradition of Pinochet to Spain and would probably have no problem having Kissinger arrested the moment he tries setting foot on British soil. His policy proposals are mild redistributism that afaict don't really push for anything like mass nationalizing infrastructure or power on a grand scale. Basically he could do so much better and it would still not be Full Communism Now, and it's always amazingly puzzling that just that is deemed too spicy for the american center left. The people who pushed for his policies across most of Europe and the Americas are the centrists ffs.
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Jun 12, 2017 18:53
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Thalantos posted:I don't mean to down play what she did, just that it's. ..kind of irrelevant for those at the bottom of the pile, economically speaking. They aren't really so easily separated. I used my updated ID to get a job with the correct name and gender, and the changes in social security policy meant that I could put my correct gender on employment paperwork and not be afraid that social security would literally send a letter to my employer outing me, which is how things used to work. Without that progress I would've had a *much* harder time getting and keeping a job.
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Jun 12, 2017 18:55
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Agnosticnixie posted:Sanders is definitely further right than the labour party at least on a policy level. Yeah, but the smear campaign is because those policies stop rich assholes making even more money from poor people. Like, what matters isn't how extreme the opinion is (I wouldn't mind just arresting kissinger regardless of where he goes) it's that his policies directly hurt Rupert Murdoch and his rich rear end in a top hat friends, even if they are milquetoast leftism.
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Jun 12, 2017 19:02
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C. Everett Koop posted:Obama is the greatest disaster in the history of the United States, far worse than the Civil War or WW2 or 9/11. Anyone who considered themselves a true leftist or liberal that doesn't spit on the ground when they say Obama's name is a fraud and a charlatan. We would have been better off with eight years of Sarah Palin than eight hours of Barack Obama. What's the difference between hockey mom Sarah Palin and Donald J. Trump? Lipstick. Ironically, there's actually an argument for this. 8 years of Bush gave us an enormous pendulum swing back to the left from which we got some good down ticket victories and, Obama, who while being objectively terrible, was relatively decent compared to what we would have probably ended up with if Bush hadn't been such a disaster. And Bush was subtle in comparison to Trump. I was thinking about it the other night, looking at the actual damage Trump has been able to do during his time in office, I think it's fair to say that, he's been one of the most ineffective president's at achieving his agenda (especially when you consider that his party also owns the other two branches of government as well) than almost any other president in history, with few exceptions, of course. On the other hand the damage he's done to his own party and ideology has been truly impressive. It seems like the most effective way to show people how absolutely terrible Republicans are at governing is to let Republicans govern. Given the pendulum swing to the left we got from Bush, the only thing I can imagine the pendulum swing from Trump giving us is if a bunch of geneticists decided to clone MLK and we elect him president. -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Jun 12, 2017 |
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Jun 12, 2017 20:20
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NikkolasKing posted:So can anyone more familiar with Socialism or "true Left Wing" politics tell me where Bernie ranks? I know he's probably a moderate compared to, I dunno, Lenin or something but I'm mostly wondering because someone I was talking to said the "socialism" we have here in the US is just a typical liberal co-opting a term and that there is no growing class consciousness here. bernie is well to the left of karl marx, just like his british penpal cORByn you should fear him 
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Jun 12, 2017 20:47
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:The thing that pisses me off most about organizing for action is the name, who the gently caress are they organizing Policy wonks and thinkfluencers
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Jun 12, 2017 20:48
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C. Everett Koop posted:Obama is the greatest disaster in the history of the United States, far worse than the Civil War or WW2 or 9/11. Anyone who considered themselves a true leftist or liberal that doesn't spit on the ground when they say Obama's name is a fraud and a charlatan. We would have been better off with eight years of Sarah Palin than eight hours of Barack Obama. Bill Clinton was worse. The free trade, finance deregulation, crime laws, and stripping of the social safety nets passed during his tenure led to the situations Obama was elected to fix.
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Jun 12, 2017 21:12
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VitalSigns posted:I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the conservative Democrats who were so frightened of the left that even though they were winning the primary they couldn't stop cheating just to be sure regardless of whether that helped Republicans win the general, are also siding with reactionaries abroad lmao.
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Jun 12, 2017 21:13
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I mean really, at what point do we not hold the Clintons and Obamas responsible for their actions and charge them with Treason/drive them out of the country? They've been betraying us for over a quarter of a century, caused some of the worst incidents this country has ever seen, and yet the general expectation is still to worship them like gods! Really what needs to happen is that voting records need to be made public so that we can find the Obama/Clinton voters and hold them responsible for their actions. A vote for those three is a vote against America and should be punished to the fullest extent.
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Jun 12, 2017 21:40
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NikkolasKing posted:So can anyone more familiar with Socialism or "true Left Wing" politics tell me where Bernie ranks? I know he's probably a moderate compared to, I dunno, Lenin or something but I'm mostly wondering because someone I was talking to said the "socialism" we have here in the US is just a typical liberal co-opting a term and that there is no growing class consciousness here. I don't know what's in Bernie's heart, but what he pushes for is social democracy, not socialism. Social democrats want to make capitalism nicer by regulating businesses, creating a robust social safety net, and perhaps even nationalizing certain essential industries like healthcare. Socialists want to move beyond capitalism by taking power over the economy away from private business owners and putting it under democratic control. Socialists support the things that social democrats support, but they're not the end goal.
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Jun 12, 2017 22:39
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C. Everett Koop posted:I mean really, at what point do we not hold the Clintons and Obamas responsible for their actions and charge them with Treason/drive them out of the country? They've been betraying us for over a quarter of a century, caused some of the worst incidents this country has ever seen, and yet the general expectation is still to worship them like gods! 2/10, you really need to step it up
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Jun 13, 2017 00:12
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C. Everett Koop posted:I mean really, at what point do we not hold the Clintons and Obamas responsible for their actions and charge them with Treason/drive them out of the country? They've been betraying us for over a quarter of a century, caused some of the worst incidents this country has ever seen, and yet the general expectation is still to worship them like gods! i would unironically be down to have 2020's election bar anyone who voted for Trump or Clinton in the last election from participating
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Jun 13, 2017 00:44
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idk about locking her up over emails but Mrs. Mandatory Minimums definitely should get 3-5 for losing to an orange pissgremlin because a computer program told her to.
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Jun 13, 2017 00:46
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Condiv posted:bernie is well to the left of karl marx, just like his british penpal cORByn eh, they're both to the right of Karl Marx Marx Marx
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Jun 13, 2017 00:57
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Speaking of Axelrod, I'll be attending this event on Thursday. Any question suggestions if I can get one in?
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Jun 13, 2017 02:27
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Ask him why they used such a ghoulish photo.
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Jun 13, 2017 03:03
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:I mean, the guy still wants to nationalize public transportation. It's not very left, but compared to THE WINDOW he might as well be Lenin. The most unswallowable part of Corbyn for the center-left part of the DNC is his foreign policy positions. Which definitely would cause a shift in power and breaks in relationship no matte who was in power. The mentality of all US Politicians involve at the very least protection of foreign interests and allies and what is more common is intervention in world affairs that are judged immoral and that is never going to change. There is a big belief that is aligned with this mindset that ceasing to continue our policy worldwide would ceed control to already existing powers and there sphere of influence. On-the-face anti-imperialism campaigns by the left against America's foreign interests kind of ignore the fact that other countries like Russia and China have developed their own empires and aren't afraid to use them to screw over America if need be. ISeeCuckedPeople fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Jun 13, 2017 |
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Jun 13, 2017 03:08
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:On-the-face anti-imperialism campaigns by the left against America's foreign interests kind of ignore the fact that other countries like Russia and China have developed their own empires and aren't afraid to use them to screw over America if need be.
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Jun 13, 2017 03:15
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I don' t particularly think they ignore it, I think they see the US as a big boy with the military power to handle its own drat foreign interests, considering the US is a hyperpower and Russia is limited to soft power and clumsy bullying of weak neighbors.
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Jun 13, 2017 03:34
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KDdidit posted:Speaking of Axelrod, I'll be attending this event on Thursday. Any question suggestions if I can get one in? ask him what he thinks about Plouffe working for uber and him (Plouffe) getting fined $90k for illegal lobbying and messina working for theresay may's campaign and robert gibbs working for mcdonald's and so on
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Jun 13, 2017 03:44
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:On-the-face anti-imperialism campaigns by the left against America's foreign interests kind of ignore the fact that other countries like Russia and China have developed their own empires and aren't afraid to use them to screw over America if need be.   Yeah man what a tremendous military threat we face, Russia will be coming over the Fulda gap any second with their massive UK-plus-Japan-sized military. Oh wait turns out if the biggest military empire the world has ever seen doesn't take care of its people, a foreign power can spend a few pennies on twitter bots to stoke populist rage and install a president friendly to foreign interests lol VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Jun 13, 2017 |
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Jun 13, 2017 03:51
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:On-the-face anti-imperialism campaigns by the left against America's foreign interests kind of ignore the fact that other countries like Russia and China have developed their own empires and aren't afraid to use them to screw over America if need be. imperialism is when a country does things
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Jun 13, 2017 04:06
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VitalSigns posted:
Lots of that military spending is for things like health care and pensions for service members just FYI
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Jun 13, 2017 05:18
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these dumb motherfuckers worship death and they'll visit it upon you https://twitter.com/JStein_Vox/status/874468249475452928
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Jun 13, 2017 05:18
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Lots of that military spending is for things like health care and pensions for service members just FYI Lol no. Well depending what you mean by "lots": all military pay and benefits, of which TRICARE and pensions are a subset, comes out to about $150 billion a year.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:29
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VitalSigns posted:Lol no. Well depending what you mean by "lots": all military pay and benefits, of which TRICARE and pensions are a subset, comes out to about $150 billion a year. $150 billion is still a lot of money. Remove that figure from the budget and we're spending less than China. There's plenty of wasteful military spending but a straight comparison of money spent isn't a particularly helpful figure.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:31
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I can't wait to die for Hillary's dignity on the streets of Warsaw or what the gently caress ever
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Jun 13, 2017 05:32
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Taintrunner posted:I can't wait to die for Hillary's dignity on the streets of Warsaw or what the gently caress ever Hilary should pull a Churchill and join Ukrainian troops in the trenches like Churchill tried to do during WW1.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:34
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:$150 billion is still a lot of money. Remove that figure from the budget and we're spending less than China. Pretty sure that chart is all the other military budgets added together, take 150 billion off and we're "merely" spending more than the top 6 other countries put together instead of the top 10.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:35
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OK but it's only a quarter of the military budget so not exactly "lots" of the budget, but even if you exclude paying soldiers from "military spending" for some reason (even though military budgets for other countries include paying their soldiers but whatever), fearmongering about Russian and Chinese threats to the American military empire is still loving absurd.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:36
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VitalSigns posted:
Such a great military force that we can't even invade and hold Iraq of Afghanistan correctly. All the money in the world don't mean poo poo when your forces are stretched that thin. Russia and China build their empire through their allies. For Russia that's Iran, Venezuela and Half of western europe. NATO isn't even willing to do poo poo in Syria. The nations that ally with Russia and China straight up don't give a gently caress. They're not democracies and they don't have to worry about winning elections.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:37
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Remove that figure from the budget and we're spending less than China. Oh ok so you can't read a bar graph, got it.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:37
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Lots of that military spending is for things like health care and pensions for service members just FYI Not as much as needs to be as turns out. I strongly suspect the free market adding an additional ablative layer of profit-skimming ticks on the surface of the VA will ameliorate the problem. Capitalism has burdened the nation-state with all the obligations of empire as the hegemonic nation in question uses the military as a gossamer surrogate for the social safety net every other industrialized nation takes for granted while the benefits go to private citizens. (imperialist profits have always gone to private citizens, is the wry joke in this post, in the unfunny politics subforum of the unfunny forum)
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Jun 13, 2017 05:37
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VitalSigns posted:OK but it's only a quarter of the military budget so not exactly "lots" of the budget, but even if you exclude paying soldiers from "military spending" for some reason (even though military budgets for other countries include paying their soldiers but whatever), fearmongering about Russian and Chinese threats to the American military empire is still loving absurd. Yes but I played Red Alert 2 and this Putin guy really knows what he's doing Willie Tomg posted:Not as much as needs to be as turns out. I strongly suspect the free market adding an additional ablative layer of profit-skimming ticks on the surface of the VA will ameliorate the problem. If you want a good laugh look up how much private manufacturers jack up prices of basic poo poo like screws for military aircraft. We taxpayers are getting absolutely robbed hand over fist.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:38
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Such a great military force that we can't even invade and hold Iraq of Afghanistan correctly. Why is Iran Russia's ally, and not a social democracy aligned with the USA? Oh right, because of short-sighted American empire building. Hey why are our forces stretched thin in Iraq and Afghanistan? Oh right, because of short-sighted American empire building. Hey why is there so much anti-Americanism in South America? Oh right...
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Jun 13, 2017 05:40
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Remove [$150B] from the budget and we're spending less than China. no thats not true at all, what the gently caress VitalSigns posted:OK but it's only a quarter of the military budget so not exactly "lots" of the budget, but even if you exclude paying soldiers from "military spending" for some reason (even though military budgets for other countries include paying their soldiers but whatever), fearmongering about Russian and Chinese threats to the American military empire is still loving absurd. if russia disrupts the hegemonic Free American Trade Market then it is only moral and just we give way to an insurgent superpower who does more with less! Oh, word? That's dumb as gently caress? That's a stupid way to do business and its a stupider way to run foreign policy? Well do go on, my man! Here's a big ol' space to go on in: There, try not to have too much fun!
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Jun 13, 2017 05:43
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VitalSigns posted:OK but it's only a quarter of the military budget so not exactly "lots" of the budget, but even if you exclude paying soldiers from "military spending" for some reason (even though military budgets for other countries include paying their soldiers but whatever), fearmongering about Russian and Chinese threats to the American military empire is still loving absurd. You keep saying this but one of these countries hacked our free and fair electors and got a quasi-dictator elected. So yeah- no I'm not gonna feel like fearmongering about russias threats to the America Military Empire is absurd. But then again I strongly support the invasion of Russia and destruction of Putin by any means neccesarry. I hate the man with a passion. If I ever met him I would do everything in my power to kill him because I believe he is a demon of satan incarnate and pure concentrated evil. ISeeCuckedPeople fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Jun 13, 2017 |
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Jun 13, 2017 05:44
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