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This thread is really good when it's discussing events and hypothetical situations that might happen after new news breaks, and it's incredibly terrible when it's discussing the definition of a word or the literal meaning of two words
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Jun 13, 2017 04:48
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Mustached Demon posted:How'd you post from the 80s? Tons of coke? Keep loving that chicken, America.
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Jun 13, 2017 04:49
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Ogmius815 posted:It might be. But practically speaking you can't diagnose that without actually examining someone. It's widely considered to be unethical to diagnose a public figure with a mental illness merely on the basis of his public appearances. So yeah, in a case where an actual medical doctor who has examined Trump is saying his decision making is impaired because he has dementia, that could be disability. Short of that the twenty-fifth amendment procedures are inappropriate. How are you going to get him to consent to be examined?
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Jun 13, 2017 04:49
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glowing-fish posted:I am not arguing about the pragmatics of the law, just about what the law says. The 25th Amendment to the constitution does not say that it can only be activated in times of medical incapacity. It says "unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office", and that can include non-medical reasons. Using it for other reasons is not a coup, it is within the literal reading of the amendment. Sure, but when you have the actual person arguing on twitter that he can do his job just fine and it's just the deep state that has stolen his presidency from him, and 30-40 percent of the country agrees with him, it is much better to have the legal process of relieving his power be based in "He committed a crime, and we are removing him because of this crime" as opposed to "look, he is making some SERIOUS bad decisions".
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Jun 13, 2017 04:49
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business hammocks posted:You're making a mountain out of a molehill here. I actually feel at a disadvantage while arguing with you because I see your Peter Parker avatar, and know that Peter Parker is the master of zany, disarming quips. Its a bit unfair of a conversational tactic, IMHO. Can I ask where you are from? I hope you believe me, I really am stunned to learn that people consider the East Coast to have mountains.
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Jun 13, 2017 04:49
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BRISTOL PALINS BABY posted:What's funnier? That conservatives are following a dementia patient into oblivion, or that they can't tell the difference between conservatism and the symptoms of dementia? I think it's just as likely that WE can't tell the difference between conservatism and symptoms of dementia. It doesn't seem too far fetched that it didn't matter which party Putin could make win, just as long as he could have some sort of control and have the strings to a few powerful people. What better insurance than having both sides in your pocket?
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Jun 13, 2017 04:51
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business hammocks posted:You're making a mountain out of a molehill here. 
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Jun 13, 2017 04:52
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:How are you going to get him to consent to be examined? Practically you probably won't be able to. Sucks I know.
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Jun 13, 2017 04:52
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Oh my god it literally does not matter whether Trump is sick or not, all that matters is that he's evil.
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Jun 13, 2017 04:54
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BRISTOL PALINS BABY posted:Keep loving that chicken, America. I've shown my distain for boomers, Reaganomics, and modern conservatism enough here. We're not all guilty.
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Jun 13, 2017 04:54
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Ularg posted:It doesn't seem too far fetched that it didn't matter which party Putin could make win, just as long as he could have some sort of control and have the strings to a few powerful people. What better insurance than having both sides in your pocket? Oliver Stone is pretty loving bonkers nowadays, too. I think his general distrust of the American government might have more to do with him cozying up to Putin than anything else. Any port in the storm for a man who is tied screaming to his own mast.
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Jun 13, 2017 04:55
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Spiritus Nox posted:Oh my god it literally does not matter whether Trump is sick or not, all that matters is that he's evil. No it definitely does matter. The twenty-fifth amendment isn't there to dispose of presidents you think are evil. Sorry.
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Jun 13, 2017 04:55
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Ogmius815 posted:It might be. But practically speaking you can't diagnose that without actually examining someone. It's widely considered to be unethical to diagnose a public figure with a mental illness merely on the basis of his public appearances. So yeah, in a case where an actual medical doctor who has examined Trump is saying his decision making is impaired because he has dementia, that could be disability. Short of that the twenty-fifth amendment procedures are inappropriate. The text of the amendment makes no mention of the CAUSE of the inability, just that the inability is there. The law doesn't give the power to diagnose that inability to a doctor, or make a medical cause necessary. It says that if over half of the cabinet and two-thirds of both houses of congress say that there is an inability, then there is. If the President refused to leave his bed for weeks at a time, it wouldn't matter if he had severe pneumonia, early stage Alzheimer's, or was just in a bad mood. It isn't the cause, it is the manifestation that the amendment addresses. Your statement about it being "inappropriate" seems to be based on the belief that the amendment was designed for medical disability. Where do you have evidence for that?
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Jun 13, 2017 04:56
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Ogmius815 posted:No it definitely does matter. The twenty-fifth amendment isn't there to dispose of presidents you think are evil. Sorry. Republicans will not under any circumstances invoke the 25th amendment unless Trump is so far gone that removing him won't actually change any of their policy. If we're going to dream of getting enough democrats in congress to invoke the 25th, we may as well dream of just impeaching him on obstruction of justice.
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Jun 13, 2017 04:57
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As long as people actually create a movement there is no reason to believe what Trump does can not be reversed. The problem is some members of the Democratic Party don't want that movement to exist because it will expose their golden geese. These are end times people. You have about another 50-100 years before mankind goes extinct. The real only hope for humanity is whether or not people are actually willing to take action. If we aren't, then we ultimately deserve what we get. England showed they have the balls to do what is required. Which isn't much. 80% turnout of youth? It wasn't even 90%...
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Jun 13, 2017 04:58
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:How are you going to get him to consent to be examined? Promise him sweets if he's a good boy.
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Jun 13, 2017 04:59
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:England showed they have the balls to do what is required. Which isn't much. 80% turnout of youth? Well, if the standard is set by the U.K., Democrats don't even have to take back the House, they just need to force Republicans to side with racist nationalists to keep their majority.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:00
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:These are end times people. You have about another 50-100 years before mankind goes extinct. The real only hope for humanity is whether or not people are actually willing to take action. You're really bad at political commentary. Pretty good at doomsaying though. Also, yeah, the UK REALLY showed us* *Exits EU, votes majority Conservative party
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Jun 13, 2017 05:01
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Trabisnikof posted:Well, if the standard is set by the U.K., Democrats don't even have to take back the House, they just need to force Republicans to side with racist nationalists to keep their majority. I think that step has been covered...
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Jun 13, 2017 05:01
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Fart Amplifier posted:Has anyone posted the video of the fat comedian beating up the cringy ex-T_D mod? A few pages back but holy poo poo watch this if you haven't. If you are going to skip ahead to the fight at least watch from about 23:30-26 minute mark. This made my loving week.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:01
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Is there a thread for trump predictions? Stuff like a 'when is mueller getting fired' pool?
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Jun 13, 2017 05:02
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glowing-fish posted:The text of the amendment makes no mention of the CAUSE of the inability, just that the inability is there. The law doesn't give the power to diagnose that inability to a doctor, or make a medical cause necessary. It says that if over half of the cabinet and two-thirds of both houses of congress say that there is an inability, then there is. That's not quite what I mean. The framers of the Twenty-fifth intentionally left the meaning of "disability" open-ended and flexible, to be decided by the VP, cabinet, and ultimately congress in using the amendment. There's no reason, constitutionally speaking, why you couldn't use the amendment to get rid of Trump because you think he has dementia, or because he really sucks at being president. I'm merely saying that it wouldn't be smart to try and use the amendment to get rid of a president who was only arguably disabled, because it would be seen as a political coup and this would put the amendment itself, which serves a vital purpose, in jeopardy. The better way to get rid of a president who is clearly incompetent but not clearly disabled is to use impeachment.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:02
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glowing-fish posted:I actually feel at a disadvantage while arguing with you because I see your Peter Parker avatar, and know that Peter Parker is the master of zany, disarming quips. Its a bit unfair of a conversational tactic, IMHO. That's newspaper Spiderman. He's not really up to the standards of wit you might expect from regular Spiderman, ironically because Stan Lee is also undergoing decline into dementia. Look, just let me have this gimmick. When the AHCA goes through, I'll probably die not long after. I've lived in New York, Wisconsin, Connecticut, and Pennsylvania, and they're all pretty different in my subjective judgment even though I lived in college towns every time (grew up in one too).
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Jun 13, 2017 05:03
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Boon posted:You're really bad at political commentary. Pretty good at doomsaying though. Labour lead by one of the most extreme leftist to run in Europe in the past 20-30 years just had one of the biggest swing in electoral history after a short term 2 month election cycle, coming back from 20 points behind in the polls, and that's what you gleaned from it? The man got more votes for his party than any other Labour leader in history.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:04
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Fastness of life and all https://twitter.com/eorden/status/874467399281635328
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Jun 13, 2017 05:06
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Labour lead by one of the most extreme leftist to run in Europe in the past 20-30 years just had one of the biggest swing in electoral history after a short term 2 month election cycle, coming back from 20 points behind in the polls, and that's what you gleaned from it? All it took was the conservatives destroying the country and for every remotely personable leader to discredit himself for Corbyn to almost win an election.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:07
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Labour lead by one of the most extreme leftist to run in Europe in the past 20-30 years just had one of the biggest swing in electoral history after a short term 2 month election cycle, coming back from 20 points behind in the polls, and that's what you gleaned from it? Hmmmm yes, great man theory IS totally real.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:07
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pillsburysoldier posted:Fastness of life and all Oh, okay, so this just ratchets her having Jones on her show to straight-up motherfucking hubris. The loving audacity of interviewing him, knowing it was going to land right around her hosting a Sandy Hook benefit gala... good lord.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:09
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empty whippet box posted:Is there a thread for trump predictions? Stuff like a 'when is mueller getting fired' pool? Post the
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Jun 13, 2017 05:09
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:How are you going to get him to consent to be examined? Can't Bones as Chief Medical Officer order anyone to have a medical examination even if they outrank him.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:10
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Ogmius815 posted:That's not quite what I mean. The framers of the Twenty-fifth intentionally left the meaning of "disability" open-ended and flexible, to be decided by the VP, cabinet, and ultimately congress in using the amendment. There's no reason, constitutionally speaking, why you couldn't use the amendment to get rid of Trump because you think he has dementia, or because he really sucks at being president. I'm merely saying that it wouldn't be smart to try and use the amendment to get rid of a president who was only arguably disabled, because it would be seen as a political coup and this would put the amendment itself, which serves a vital purpose, in jeopardy. The better way to get rid of a president who is clearly incompetent but not clearly disabled is to use impeachment. The 25th Amendment doesn't use the world "disabled" or "disability". You seem to be confusing the meaning of the amendments' "unable" or "inability" with the modern usage of the term "disability", meaning a physical or mental condition that can be medically diagnosed. Someone who is incompetent is unable to perform their duty. The amendment is open about the cause of that inability. I don't think you are open to be reasoned with, because you are using one specific modern concept, "disability", to override the text of the amendment, which, as written, seems to possibly refer to any type of incompetency. In fact, while I don't think you are disabled, you are unable to understand my argument.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:10
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empty whippet box posted:Is there a thread for trump predictions? Stuff like a 'when is mueller getting fired' pool? Hell I'd throw in a buck for a pool if a bunch of goons wanted to do it. I call the 20th.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:11
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dont even fink about it posted:So I guess the question is, when did Putin start bankrolling far left figures? This is obviously something that took a lot of cultivation. This was a practice under the USSR- although McCarthyism was nuts, many Soviet spies were dissdents on the left. Targeting dissatisfied fringes in all aspects of the democratic society was always a part of the playbook. Little has changed in that particular regard, even if the media and specific strategies have changed greatly.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:11
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glowing-fish posted:The 25th Amendment doesn't use the world "disabled" or "disability". Did you read the post you quoted? I agree that what constitutes an inability (other parts of the succession laws use "disability", I forgot which word was actually in the constitution, oops) is left open to be determined by the Vice President, the cabinet, and congress. You want to try again?
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Jun 13, 2017 05:16
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Discendo Vox posted:This was a practice under the USSR- although McCarthyism was nuts, many Soviet spies were dissdents on the left. Targeting dissatisfied fringes in all aspects of the democratic society was always a part of the playbook. Little has changed in that particular regard, even if the media and specific strategies have changed greatly. The main difference is that the Soviet Union was at least nominally something the left aspired to during the Cold War, but now it's an alliance of sheer opportunism. Right wing organizations can at least credibly come up with reasons why they share common cause with Putin (horrible though they may be), but for someone like Stein to act like Putin's her best friend is pure cynicism.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:17
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Ice Phisherman posted:You assume he's manageable. Better men than Jared Kushner have tried. You assume incorrectly. Also ignoring Donnie's current version of Nancy or the daughter he wants to gently caress being the controllers.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:19
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Ogmius815 posted:Did you read the post you quoted? I agree that what constitutes an inability (other parts of the succession laws use "disability", I forgot which word was actually in the constitution, oops) is left open to be determined by the Vice President, the cabinet, and congress. You want to try again? Excellent! Then we agree! If the president's behavior means he is unable to perform his duties, is unable to make decisions with a sound mind, and the Vice-President, the Cabinet, and Congress agree with the required majority, then that is not a coup, but is in line with the word, and as far as we can tell, the intent, of the 25th Amendment. Glad you agree with me.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:19
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empty whippet box posted:Is there a thread for trump predictions? Stuff like a 'when is mueller getting fired' pool? Friday.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:21
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And it's seriously easy to fund unwittingly moles if you have a bunch of money. It's not like you need to be a great writer to be a pundit. Give them/buy them/place them in a place where they can be prolific and predictable and they'll cross-pollinate with like minded publications and eventually land at a think tank/friendly administration.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:23
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glowing-fish posted:Excellent! Then we agree! Yes. However, as I mentioned before, it would be stupid to use this procedure to get rid of a president who was only arguably disabled, such as Trump. If you did that it would look like a political coup dressed in constitutional clothing and would probably spark a constitutional crisis. At the very least the twenty-fifth amendment would be forever tainted and politicized. A better, more legitimate-seeming way to get rid of such a president would be to use the impeachment process. And what do you know? It would be easier too because impeachment doesn't require a two thirds majority in the house. It also doesn't require the VP and cabinet officials to cooperate.
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Jun 13, 2017 05:26
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