EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

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Phlegmish: Jul 2, 2011

Aren't they the insane hosed up fundamentalist Protestant party that keeps causing outbreaks of the mumps because they don't believe in vaccination

Well, you have two of them so I assume CU is the least bad one, judging by how surprisingly OK you seem to be with them.

# ? Jun 14, 2017 07:20

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# ? May 25, 2024 23:28

Shibawanko: Feb 13, 2013

The really bad one is SGP, the CU is in favor of retaining part of the welfare state and no more privatizations of things that ought to be state-run, they're in favor of green energy too, but then they're against abortions and legal weed. I don't like them but they're not the worst party by a long stretch.

# ? Jun 14, 2017 07:29

Hambilderberglar: Dec 2, 2004

Phlegmish posted:

Aren't they the insane hosed up fundamentalist Protestant party that keeps causing outbreaks of the mumps because they don't believe in vaccination

Well, you have two of them so I assume CU is the least bad one, judging by how surprisingly OK you seem to be with them.

That's the SGP, which also doesn't allow women to be members, and their website is down on sunday, among a variety of hosed up poo poo they believe in.
They used to run on the same list with CU but we've abolished list mergers in all elections (inshallah).

# ? Jun 14, 2017 09:47

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Hambilderberglar posted:

That's the SGP, which also doesn't allow women to be members, and their website is down on sunday, among a variety of hosed up poo poo they believe in.
They used to run on the same list with CU but we've abolished list mergers in all elections (inshallah).

Women can be members ever since judges threatened to withhold their state subsidies for discrimination against women. Women who are members still can't vote, however.

# ? Jun 14, 2017 14:17

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

loving lol @ Baudet calling the VVD a left wing party re: Rotterdam municipal elections.

# ? Jun 14, 2017 15:33

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

Orange Devil posted:

loving lol @ Baudet calling the VVD a left wing party re: Rotterdam municipal elections.

Baudet is absolute poison for anything. I'm more worried about him than I am about Wilders.

# ? Jun 14, 2017 15:53

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Junior G-man posted:

Baudet is absolute poison for anything. I'm more worried about him than I am about Wilders.

Agreed.

# ? Jun 14, 2017 15:57

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

Surely nothing bad can ever happen now that we've turned Greece into a long-term debt colony? It'll work out fine.

http://www.politico.eu/article/why-greece-is-germanys-de-facto-colony/

quote:

Why Greece is Germany�s �de facto colony�

The debt relief Athens desperately wants is hostage to Berlin�s election politics.

BERLIN � Poor Alexis Tsipras.

For days, the Greek leader has been working the phones, trying to secure the best possible terms for his country as it enters the last mile of its seemingly endless cycle of bailouts. So far, his efforts have won him more mockery than respect � especially in Germany.

�He keeps calling the whole time, and the chancellor says again and again, �Alexis, this issue is for the finance ministers,�� German Finance Minister Wolfgang Sch�uble told an audience here on Tuesday, referring to the Greek prime minister�s attempts to win over Angela Merkel to his cause.

Eurozone finance ministers are set to decide at a meeting in Luxembourg on Thursday whether to release a more than �7 billion tranche of aid to Greece. No one doubts Athens will get the money. Sch�uble all but committed to it on Tuesday. But Tsipras wants something even more precious: debt relief.

No serious economist believes Greece will ever crawl out from under its more than �300 billion debt without significant forgiveness from its creditors. That means convincing Germany, the country to which Greece owes the most.

For much of Greece�s nearly decade-long depression, the country was hostage to its domestic politics. Now, it�s hostage to Germany�s.

Berlin, which has long opposed outright debt relief, refuses to budge. With a general election in Germany set for late September, Merkel and Sch�uble are unlikely to soften their position anytime soon. The Greek bailouts remain politically toxic in Germany, and any agreement involving debt forgiveness would be seen domestically as an admission the rescue effort had failed � and at the German taxpayers� expense.

Over the years, Germany has quietly accepted more subtle forms of forgiveness, like extending maturities on Greece�s loans and reducing the interest burden. But a straightforward cut, as demanded by the International Monetary Fund, remains out of the question. At least until after the election.

Unfortunately for Tsipras, he has very little say in the matter. One big reason he wants debt relief now is that it would allow the European Central Bank to include Greece in its bond-buying program, known as quantitative easing.

That would go a long way toward boosting investor confidence in Greece�s stability. But Greece won�t be eligible for the program as long as its debt burden isn�t deemed sustainable. And with the ECB�s program set to be wound down soon, Greece may never benefit.

Tsipras may yet try to resist a deal this week and take the matter to next week�s summit of European leaders in Brussels. That�s unlikely to make much difference.

Truth is, Europe stopped listening to Greece a long time ago.

Gone are the days when talk of �Grexit� (Brexit�s forgotten sire) triggered a nervous tick across financial traders� faces. Today, mention of Greece is more likely to elicit a glazed look, if not a yawn. With the country�s debt safely out of the hands of the credit markets and in the vaults of the ECB and Europe�s treasuries, Athens can no longer rattle the global financial system.

Tsipras didn�t understand that dynamic until after he and his leftist Syriza coalition were elected in early 2015. Syriza won by promising to reverse much of the austerity creditors had imposed on Greece over the years. Buoyed by the victory, Tsipras held a referendum on whether the government should accept bailout terms negotiated by his predecessor. Voters� response was clear: Oxi, No.

Then reality set in. Faced with the collapse of Greece�s banking system, exit from the eurozone and a future even bleaker than the present, Tsipras and his band of leftist firebrands came to heel. Yanis Varoufakis, the �rockstar� finance minister who once advocated �sticking the finger to Germany,� was forced out.

Ever since, Tsipras has largely complied with creditors� demands for further budget cuts and economic overhauls. Berlin and its partners confronted his occasional bouts of resistance with simple patience. In the end, they knew the Greek leader would have no choice but to relent.

Time and again, they were proven right. Just last month, Tsipras pushed through cuts to pensions, a move once unthinkable.

From the beginning of the crisis, part of Germany�s strategy for dealing with Greece has been not to make the process too easy. Though German officials won�t say so publicly, making an example of Greece has always been part of their plan.

And it�s worked. Across Europe, Greece has become synonymous with economic incompetence. Officials in other European capitals refer to Athens like a wayward, unrepentant relative. No one wants to be like Greece.

�Greece is de facto a colony,� Polish Foreign Minister Witold Waszczykowski said in an interview with POLITICO, explaining his country�s resistance to joining the euro. �We don�t want to repeat this scenario.�

Despite the challenges that reputation poses, Greece is holding out hope that it will ultimately get what it wants.

For one, the IMF has been on its side for more than a year, refusing to participate in the bailout unless there�s debt relief. Germany�s parliament made its approval of the bailout in 2015 contingent on the participation of the IMF, which lawmakers regard as a guarantor that the process won�t be skewed in Athens� favor.

That has led to a protracted standoff. Last week, IMF Managing Director Christine Lagarde proposed a sleight of hand that would allow the bailout to go forward. The IMF would formally join but not release any funds until after the Europeans spell out what kind of debt relief they will accept.

If that happens at all, it won�t be until after the German election. In the meantime, Tsipras has little choice but to heed the wishes of his �colonial� masters.

I read Varoufakis' book on the negotiations a few weeks a go - absolutely worth your time by the way - and this is just another repeat of another repeat. Tsipras should've used the no vote to get the hell out.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 09:22

Toplowtech: Aug 31, 2004

There is also that German guy who go to restaurants in Florence, do not pay and says that THE ITALIANS WILL PAY FOR IT.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 09:53

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

So, just that I understand this correctly, if you enter a contract and expect this contract to be fulfilled by the other party, that's making them your "colony"?

Coolio.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 09:56

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

Yeah, if you sign a contract that says they are your colony and expect them to fulfil the contract by being your colony, that makes them your colony.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 10:25

nimby: Nov 4, 2009; The pinnacle of cloud computing.

GaussianCopula posted:

So, just that I understand this correctly, if you enter a contract and expect this contract to be fulfilled by the other party, that's making them your "colony"?

Coolio.

Your parents, uncles and older neighbours were encouraged to enter a contract so they could live the high life, now you are a slave to a foreign power.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 10:45

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

nimby posted:

Your parents, uncles and older neighbours were encouraged to enter a contract so they could live the high life, now you are a slave to a foreign power.

Well, they can always quit the EU and go back to the Drachme if the want to default - no one is taking that option away from them.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 10:54

Pinch Me Im Meming: Jun 26, 2005

GaussianCopula posted:

Well, they can always quit the EU and go back to the Drachme if the want to default - no one is taking that option away from them.

Charybdis, meet Scylla.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 10:56

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

Pinch Me Im Meming posted:

Charybdis, meet Scylla.

Well, obviously if you cheat to get into the Eurozone, continue to cheat to have a debt fueled consumption binge and than elect a number of governments who only look out for their own clients, life is going to suck.

It's also important to note that the biggest reason the Greeks want debt relief now instead of at the end of the program is that they need it for internal politics - not because they have immediate funding needs that need to be taken care of. I don't see why other countries should sacrifice political capital to help SYRIZA out - and I'm not just talking about Germany but also about the Netherlands (don't have a government) and Finnland (one of their governing parties just split).

# ? Jun 15, 2017 11:02

Kurtofan: Feb 16, 2011; hon hon hon

i'm gonna laugh when bayrou gets thrown out the government after the legislatives for being a shithead lol

# ? Jun 15, 2017 11:30

Toplowtech: Aug 31, 2004

Kurtofan posted:

i'm gonna laugh when bayrou gets thrown out the government after the legislatives for being a shithead lol

If by now, after years of him getting throw away by most rightwing groups including his own centrist group, you couldn't understand the guy got some relational problems, yeah, you are macron.
I remember him ranting a few years back about politicians who were reacting to the press the way he is currently complaining about them.

Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Jun 15, 2017

# ? Jun 15, 2017 11:43

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

quote:

Berlin, which has long opposed outright debt relief, refuses to budge. With a general election in Germany set for late September, Merkel and Sch�uble are unlikely to soften their position anytime soon. The Greek bailouts remain politically toxic in Germany, and any agreement involving debt forgiveness would be seen domestically as an admission the rescue effort had failed � and at the German taxpayers� expense.

This is the key paragraph. Debt forgiveness would be an admission. Meanwhile everyone who knows anything (aka everyone in this thread but GC) has already understood long ago that the bailout coupled with austerity was a failure. Wile E. Schauble is stubbornly insisting that as long as we don't look down, we haven't walked off the cliff.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 11:59

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

Orange Devil posted:

This is the key paragraph. Debt forgiveness would be an admission. Meanwhile everyone who knows anything (aka everyone in this thread but GC) has already understood long ago that the bailout coupled with austerity was a failure. Wile E. Schauble is stubbornly insisting that as long as we don't look down, we haven't walked off the cliff.

Actually both the second bailout (not completed thanks to Oxi, otherwise debt relief would have been offered in November 2015) and the third state that debt measures will be taken at the end of the program to ensure that the Greek debt is sustainable after the end of the program.

The key point is that Tsipras want's debt relief now to strengthen his position internally.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 12:24

I Love Annie May: Oct 10, 2012

GaussianCopula posted:

Actually both the second bailout (not completed thanks to Oxi, otherwise debt relief would have been offered in November 2015) and the third state that debt measures will be taken at the end of the program to ensure that the Greek debt is sustainable after the end of the program.

The key point is that Tsipras want's debt relief now to strengthen his position internally.

So loving what if Tsipras needs the relief for internal stability? Greek debt still exists whether Syriza benefits or not from a debt relief, and the Greek economy will never return to pre crisis levels unless you take measures to forgive its unsustainable debts.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 12:38

Geriatric Pirate: Apr 25, 2008; by Nyc_Tattoo

I Love Annie May posted:

So loving what if Tsipras needs the relief for internal stability? Greek debt still exists whether Syriza benefits or not from a debt relief, and the Greek economy will never return to pre crisis levels unless you take measures to forgive its unsustainable debts.

Except that with interest cuts, repayment free periods and maturity extensions, the debt is in no way unsustainable in the short term (Greece has a smaller repayment burden as a percentage of debt than France right now) so it is about political capital

# ? Jun 15, 2017 13:05

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

GaussianCopula posted:

So, just that I understand this correctly, if you enter a contract and expect this contract to be fulfilled by the other party, that's making them your "colony"?

Coolio.

This is your mind on neoliberalism.

I guess you think the Unequal Treaties were just contracts? Lmao

# ? Jun 15, 2017 13:10

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

lollontee posted:

This is your mind on neoliberalism.

I guess you think the Unequal Treaties were just contracts? Lmao

I must have missed the part of history were China cooked there books to be even considered worthy of those Treaties, surely you have a source for that?

I Love Annie May posted:

So loving what if Tsipras needs the relief for internal stability? Greek debt still exists whether Syriza benefits or not from a debt relief, and the Greek economy will never return to pre crisis levels unless you take measures to forgive its unsustainable debts.

Again, there is consensus on the issue of medium and long term debt relief - the only question is whether it should be done now or at the end of the program. Perhaps you can enlighten me why gross financing needs of Greece in 2040-2050 are such a pressing issue today, when there is an explicit commitment by the Eurogroup to deal with that issue in 2018, at the end of the program.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 13:55

Flowers For Algeria: Dec 3, 2005; I humbly offer my services as forum inquisitor. There is absolutely no way I would abuse this power in any way.

Kurtofan posted:

i'm gonna laugh when bayrou gets thrown out the government after the legislatives for being a shithead lol

The Ayrault and Valls governments were full of shitheads and conflicting egos. That's not going to harm Bayrou, I think.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 14:01

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

GaussianCopula posted:

I must have missed the part of history were China cooked there books to be even considered worthy of those Treaties, surely you have a source for that?

Ah yes, well of course that justifies your brave new model neocolonialism. Now that you say it, the unwarranted and completely injustified destruction of British property by the perfidious Qing was a completely jus ad bellum.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 14:11

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

lollontee posted:

Ah yes, well of course that justifies your brave new model neocolonialism. Now that you say it, the unwarranted and completely injustified destruction of British property by the perfidious Qing was a completely jus ad bellum.

Colonialism would describe a situation in which the overlord is funneling wealth and resources out of the colony, I don't see that in happening in Greece at all.

The award for best doorstep interview of the Eurogroup goes to Peter Kazimir and his briefcase stuffed with money
https://tvnewsroom.consilium.europa.eu/event/eurogroup-meeting-june-2017-17328/arrival-and-doorstep-sk-kaimr-178dd

GaussianCopula fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Jun 15, 2017

# ? Jun 15, 2017 14:34

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

GaussianCopula posted:

Colonialism would describe a situation in which the overlord is funneling wealth and resources out of the colony, I don't see that in happening in Greece at all.

Colonies don't actually have to be profitable.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 14:37

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Colonies don't actually have to be profitable.

So what would be the point of having Greece as a colony?

# ? Jun 15, 2017 14:52

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

GaussianCopula posted:

Colonialism would describe a situation in which the overlord is funneling wealth and resources out of the colony, I don't see that in happening in Greece at all.

The award for best doorstep interview of the Eurogroup goes to Peter Kazimir and his briefcase stuffed with money
https://tvnewsroom.consilium.europa.eu/event/eurogroup-meeting-june-2017-17328/arrival-and-doorstep-sk-kaimr-178dd

No it wouldn't you illiterate twathead. How you convinced yourself of something this divorced from reality (and dictionary definitions of words) I cannot fathom, but I'm starting to envy your capacity for self-delusion.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 14:56

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

GaussianCopula posted:

So what would be the point of having Greece as a colony?

Germany will always let its foreign policy be determined by the necessity to secure the space necessary to the life of [their] Folk.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 14:58

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

GaussianCopula posted:

So what would be the point of having Greece as a colony?

It's an object lesson in what happens if you step out of line, to keep the rest of Europe loyal.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 15:10

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

GaussianCopula posted:

So what would be the point of having Greece as a colony?

If you cannot figure out why your beloved Schitwolf would use Greece for accounting fraud in the ongoing 4+ trillion euro bank bailout of the past decade, you are literally retarded. Your Deutsche Bank, along with the rest of EU banking system is bankrupt, and instead of admitting it your political leaders blamed it on Greece and made it into a national accounting fraud dumping ground.

But of course, you are psychologically incapable of admitting that reality, because that would have some rather uncomfortable implications for neoliberal ideological hypocrisy. You know, that whole free markets bullshit doesn't really work very well if the price tag for keeping the banks alive is trillions of euros every few decades...

# ? Jun 15, 2017 15:11

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

GaussianCopula posted:

So what would be the point of having Greece as a colony?

Sadism mainly.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 15:15

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

lollontee posted:

If you cannot figure out why your beloved Schitwolf would use Greece for accounting fraud in the ongoing 4+ trillion euro bank bailout of the past decade, you are literally retarded. Your Deutsche Bank, along with the rest of EU banking system is bankrupt, and instead of admitting it your political leaders blamed it on Greece and made it into a national accounting fraud dumping ground.

This. Deutsche is the Goldman Sachs of Europe.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 15:19

Randler: Jan 3, 2013; ACER ET VEHEMENS BONAVIS

Yeah, GC and the Federal Republic should really stop treating Germany and Deutsche Bank as separate entities, just because ~legally~ Deutsche Bank is a corporation that Germany only holds shares in.

(Maybe it should be renamed into the East Thracian Trading Company AG?)

# ? Jun 15, 2017 15:42

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

It's really cool since this is like the umpteenth time I've had this argument with GC, and he runs away every single facking time time. Ah well, the point bears repeating I guess.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 15:42

Dawncloack: Nov 26, 2007; ECKS DEE!; Nap Ghost

GaussianCopula posted:

Colonialism would describe a situation in which the overlord is funneling wealth and resources out of the colony, I don't see that in happening in Greece at all.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/19/news/companies/greece-germany-airports-privatization/index.html

No one is as blind as the man who doesn't want to see, as we say in Spain.

And you go on with your blabber about how they signed a perfectly fine agreement, for anyone else who's reading it: When you have to privatize fast, fire-sale style, you can't sell at any price but cheap for a number of reasons. That's what's going on with the above article.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 16:36

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

Yes Greece was rescued in 2011 because a collapse would have risked a collapse of the European banking system, which was very fortunate for Greece.

Not sure why this is relevant today, given that Greece is still a sovereign country which could refuse to continue being a "debt colony" any day.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 16:38

Geriatric Pirate: Apr 25, 2008; by Nyc_Tattoo

Orange Devil posted:

This. Deutsche is the Goldman Sachs of Europe.

The same Goldman Sachs that tried their best to reject any government capital injections and only gave in in the end because every bank had to accept one? The same Goldman Sachs that then promptly repaid the capital, giving the government a profit?

Or could it just be that, when you don't understand a thing about economics or finance, you just associate Goldman Sachs with everything bad?

Just for future reference: Goldman Sachs is the bank you're supposed to hate for "helping" Greece hide their debt (Goldman sold them an interest rate product that allowed them to reclassify debt) or mis-selling CDOs.

In general though anyone trying to draw some sort of link between Deutsche Bank and Greece is a total moron. While DB had problems in Greece (total exposure of about e1.2bn in 2011, not all of which was low quality), they were pretty miniscule compared to the exposures that French banks had.

But then again, back to my point about Goldman, you're probably naming Deutsche because of it's name as opposed to any actual understanding of how it got into trouble..

lollontee posted:

It's really cool since this is like the umpteenth time I've had this argument with GC, and he runs away every single facking time time. Ah well, the point bears repeating I guess.

The problem is that you're wrong on so many basic points that it's difficult to start anywhere because it's not clear what you actually understand. The direct bailout of Greece was the softest possible option for Greece, even if it happened to save European banks in the process.

Let's think about a hypothetical scenario for starters: Let's say that Greece had defaulted in 2011 and the French banks took the losses. What do you think would have happened?

Either the banks go under, which is retarded for the rest of Europe and no one ever lends to Greece again (also, Europe is screwed). Or then the banks get bailed out with equity injections, but no one ever lends to Greece again because they just defaulted. Oh yeah, and they still have a huge deficit, instead of a deficit that's partly financed by the EU for the next 7 years (and counting).

Not to mention what happens to Greek pension funds who were the main holders of Greek debt (and thus were bailed out).

But by all means, continue :qq:

ing about how the banks got "bailed out" even though the biggest beneficiary of the bailout was the Greek people and it would have been a hell of a lot cheaper for the rest of Europe to just take care of their own banks and let Greece finance its own deficit and take care of its own pension funds.

It's like you're an animal of some sort who's just been instinctively been trained to start growling whenever someone mentions "banks"

# ? Jun 15, 2017 16:45

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# ? May 25, 2024 23:28

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
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Geriatric Pirate posted:

The same Goldman Sachs that tried their best to reject any government capital injections and only gave in in the end because every bank had to accept one? The same Goldman Sachs that then promptly repaid the capital, giving the government a profit?

Or could it just be that, when you don't understand a thing about economics or finance, you just associate Goldman Sachs with everything bad?

Just for future reference: Goldman Sachs is the bank you're supposed to hate for "helping" Greece hide their debt (Goldman sold them an interest rate product that allowed them to reclassify debt) or mis-selling CDOs.

In general though anyone trying to draw some sort of link between Deutsche Bank and Greece is a total moron. While DB had problems in Greece (total exposure of about e1.2bn in 2011, not all of which was low quality), they were pretty miniscule compared to the exposures that French banks had.

But then again, back to my point about Goldman, you're probably naming Deutsche because of it's name as opposed to any actual understanding of how it got into trouble..

The problem is that you're wrong on so many basic points that it's difficult to start anywhere because it's not clear what you actually understand. The direct bailout of Greece was the softest possible option for Greece, even if it happened to save European banks in the process.

Let's think about a hypothetical scenario for starters: Let's say that Greece had defaulted in 2011 and the French banks took the losses. What do you think would have happened?

Either the banks go under, which is retarded for the rest of Europe and no one ever lends to Greece again (also, Europe is screwed). Or then the banks get bailed out with equity injections, but no one ever lends to Greece again because they just defaulted. Oh yeah, and they still have a huge deficit, instead of a deficit that's partly financed by the EU for the next 7 years (and counting).

Not to mention what happens to Greek pension funds who were the main holders of Greek debt (and thus were bailed out).

But by all means, continue ing about how the banks got "bailed out" even though the biggest beneficiary of the bailout was the Greek people and it would have been a hell of a lot cheaper for the rest of Europe to just take care of their own banks and let Greece finance its own deficit and take care of its own pension funds.

It's like you're an animal of some sort who's just been instinctively been trained to start growling whenever someone mentions "banks"

The problem being you couldnt bailout a 40 trillion dollar economy in tbe snp pf a fj gers. Greece defaults, euro project dies of capital flight.

# ? Jun 15, 2017 17:02

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