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What is the best flav... you all know what this question is: This poll is closed. |
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| Labour |
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907 | 49.92% |
| Theresa May Team (Conservative) |
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48 | 2.64% |
| Liberal Democrats |
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31 | 1.71% |
| UKIP |
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13 | 0.72% |
| Plaid Cymru |
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25 | 1.38% |
| Green |
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22 | 1.21% |
| Scottish Socialist Party |
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12 | 0.66% |
| Scottish Conservative Party |
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1 | 0.06% |
| Scottish National Party |
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59 | 3.25% |
| Some Kind of Irish Unionist |
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4 | 0.22% |
| Alliance / Irish Nonsectarian |
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3 | 0.17% |
| Some Kind of Irish Nationalist |
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36 | 1.98% |
| Misc. Far Left Trots |
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35 | 1.93% |
| Misc. Far Right Fash |
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8 | 0.44% |
| Monster Raving Loony |
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49 | 2.70% |
| Space Navies Party |
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39 | 2.15% |
| Independent / Single Issue |
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2 | 0.11% |
| Can't Vote |
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188 | 10.35% |
| Won't Vote |
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8 | 0.44% |
| Spoiled Ballot |
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15 | 0.83% |
| Pissflaps |
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312 | 17.17% |
| Total: | 1817 votes | ||
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spectralent posted:On the other hand, this hasn't stopped rampant press speculation before, so it is kind of weird this time around they're stony-silent. the landlord and politican classes just killed 100-300 people and when the media tries to interview them they get yelled at so they're taking this one slowly. the hosed thing is thats the only thing the council had to fear from actually talking to people, being yelled at. but they couldnt be arsed as always.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:46
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Tesseraction posted:But we've also learned that the council doesn't know and hasn't bothered to try and find out who may or may not have been there. The council are clearly incompetent assholes but I don't think they're in league with the media to hush things up (which I realise was not what OP was saying). It's just that I've seen a lot of people on twitter going 'd-notices are being issued to sweep the body count under the rug!!!' when really the truth is much more prosaic. It will probably be a few more days at least before we have a total body count but that's because of the nature of the fire, not a conspiracy.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:46
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happyhippy posted:Is there even a wall of the missing there? Everyone who would have put up a poster or photograph is dead. It's a block of flats that holds 500-600 people, we are being told 72 comfermed dead and 22 in hospital. Where are the other 400-500 people. Housing benefit, child tax credit, child support, pensions, NI records, tax credits, immigration records. A rough list could have been made in a day, strike off all those who have claimed for emergency benefit and for new housing and there's a rough estimate. Don't fob us off with this loving 72 people bullshit.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:48
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UrbicaMortis posted:The council are clearly incompetent assholes but I don't think they're in league with the media to hush things up (which I realise was not what OP was saying). It's just that I've seen a lot of people on twitter going 'd-notices are being issued to sweep the body count under the rug!!!' when really the truth is much more prosaic. It will probably be a few more days at least before we have a total body count but that's because of the nature of the fire, not a conspiracy. Yeah, what people seem to be mad about though is an unwillingness to estimate, even estimating how many people lived in the building before the fire which should be known already by the council.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:48
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People are mad because we're currently experiencing a national tragedy once a fortnight and this is the first one where it absolutely unmistakably feels like 'the establishment' is protecting itself at the expense of exploited citizens.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:49
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learnincurve posted:Where are the other 400-500 people.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:50
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nopantsjack posted:Yeah, what people seem to be mad about though is an unwillingness to estimate, even estimating how many people lived in the building before the fire which should be known already by the council. Good point. A confirmed total number will take ages but given on the info the council should hold, a reasonably accurate estimate could probably be made.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:52
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jBrereton posted:Leisure centre, mostly, I believe. And all the people who've been putting up missing posters just forgot to look there?
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Jun 17, 2017 17:54
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learnincurve posted:Everyone who would have put up a poster or photograph is dead. Yeah those lists are how they arrived at the number of missing people. If there's 72 missing then that's likely the approximate death toll. The authorities probably shouldn't go out and declare that everybody who's missing is definitely dead though.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:54
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Jun 17, 2017 17:55
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Jedit posted:^^^ This is not a great time to do BBQ. The survivors are mostly from the lower floors. If everyone she knew was from the upper floors then it makes sense. Hundreds are unaccounted for and the media is going "oohhh lets hope it doesn't go into triple figures". It's going into triple figures.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:55
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Yeah is there like, an actual list of all the residents and their confirmed status? Did 400+ people make it out safely? If yes then good. If not then how are there only 58 missing presumed dead?
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Jun 17, 2017 17:56
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i caught it and the end is "because a huge number of people, mostly children, burned to death, and that should be screamed from every streetcorner until the people responsible pay"
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Jun 17, 2017 17:57
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Bates posted:Yeah those lists are how they arrived at the number of missing people. If there's 72 missing then that's likely the approximate death toll. The authorities probably shouldn't go out and declare that everybody who's missing is definitely dead though. It would go a long way to eliminating people's suspicion if they'd release a statememnt ot the effect of "we have successfully accounted for x of the tower's y occupants, and confirmed that z people successfully escaped the tower on the night of the fire".
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Jun 17, 2017 17:58
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Spangly A posted:the way you describe modern governmence never fails to sound maliciously labyrinthian, and I'm real glad jeremy corbyn is about to get a mandate to hack away at any legislation written by PPE grads, consequences that will inevitably bring an empowered and class conscious proletariat against the capitalist class be damned britain cried for local democracy as a solution to the tensions of the 1980s, and got it good and hard that's not going to change really. even corbyn's letter to may is a paean to the importance of LOCAL VIEWS http://www.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/876009928045060097 (note that he asks for their participation, not their approval of outcomes. Corbyn's not enough of an idiot for that) if we demand governance through local consultation, best practices, and due process at the same time, of course it's going to be a nullity. there's nothing for locals to decide, save for perhaps a fund earmarked for their disposition, which will be inevitably spent on painting the bike-shed a different shade (cue photo-op, declare victory) the class conscious vanguard are actively participatory in this process - they are the class of intelligentsia who are employed to translate LOCAL VIEWS into an acceptable format. this was a trick that New Labour deployed well - it partnered with NGOs and activists that grew up during the dark days of Thatcher to go out and report on its new localism, like the various green/urban forums that were popular in the 1980s. during this translatory process, any cultural views more characteristic of Bigoted Woman would vanish, any plainly foolish ideas articulated would be swept under the rug, and the LOCAL VIEWS would be very enthusiastic about the new green initiatives, community gardens, cycling routes, and social inclusion initiatives, of which selected locals are supposedly championing. if anything is at all acknowledged to be ill, it is only because New Labour had failed to confront Racism and Poverty enough. in this process, all of the dysfunctional tutoring and handholding that LOCAL VIEWS require are of course elided.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:59
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It's worth remembering as well that a lot of people who did get out won't have gone into the system at that point. Anyone who had anywhere else to be, be it family or friends, will not have been in the centres they set up, and the processing of the survivors was pretty poo poo when they did get out. The police and services won't get into the estimate game, and they certainly won't name any of the victims until they get permission to do so from next of kin. At the same time you can absolutely point at police cuts as being one of the reasons why getting information out is taking what seems like a long time, as a whole lot of the administrative staff that would normally be involved in processing such stuff don't exist any more.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:02
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coffeetable posted:orrrr the authorities have, after long experience, decided not to risk telling people their relatives are dead until they're very sure that they're dead
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Jun 17, 2017 18:02
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Jedit posted:^^^ This is not a great time to do BBQ. I mean yeah some of what she says is a little dubious but gently caress, I ain't gonna judge her for that in these circumstances. The important thing is the deep, impotent despair that comes through so clearly.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:03
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If the intent has been to cover things up by hiding numbers it was a real bad strategy, at least, since I feel like the response has been "Holy gently caress the government can't even guess how many people have died?" rather than "well we don't know so let's just stop thinking about it!  "
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Jun 17, 2017 18:04
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Like the response of the fire fighters and police on the scene was really good. Everything that has occurred since then has been an utter poo poo show.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:07
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They're releasing the count of people reported missing who they've located dead or failed to locate among the survivors. The problem is that there's clearly another number, the number of unidentified bodies they've recovered from the tower, which isn't getting mentioned even as something we *ought* to know - and this is odd given that, for example in coverage of the Manchester arena bombing, the media were up all night and the next day reporting any speculation so long as they could find one local resident to state it out loud.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:07
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So May has given a statement saying the inquiry will report directly to her and she will be responsible for implementing the advice. Quite apart from being extremely optimistic about her longevity as PM, I'm pretty sure that's not going to reassure people who blame her and her government for ignoring the advice of previous inquiries.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:07
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Jedit posted:^^^ This is not a great time to do BBQ. The video has been cut off, in the full video she says "yeah there's 70 people but compare that to 500, 600" with the 70 referring to people who got out. In the full video she talks about the difficulty of explaining to a 5-6 year old where their grandmother is.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:09
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jabby posted:So May has given a statement saying the inquiry will report directly to her and she will be responsible for implementing the advice. The press have been all over here about not appearing in control of the situation, this is a desperate attempt to look like she is. No one is going to believe the inquiry's outcome now.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:09
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There won't be a confirmed body count for a while, death certificates for missing people are issued at the conclusion of coroners inquests (a process that could take years) so the most you'll get is "x missing, presumed dead" with fatalities increasing as bodies are recovered which will be a process taking weeks (and inquests can't even start until recovery procedures have finished)
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Jun 17, 2017 18:10
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goddamnedtwisto posted:AIUI (from chatter on my local FB group from understandably concerned people living in both new-build and renovated high rises) rock wool gives better performance than PU or PET insulation and is completely fireproof - and, notably, was being used on all the insulation/beautification upgrades to tower blocks in London from the mid-90s until about 2009, and nobody's quite sure if there was an actual change to the regs or not then, but everyone moved to plastic insulation. That was all largely in an era before the Grenfell Tower renovation, so the Express blaming it on the EU is more Old Man Shouts at Claude. The initial refrigerator failing, if that's what it was, might be down to changes in allowed materials, but that should have been an isolated apartment fire.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:13
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Irony Be My Shield posted:They can estimate a likely overall count without informing individuals they aren't sure about. It's reasonable that the cops don't release estimates. What's not reasonable is the complete lack of curiosity that the media seems to have developed. They could be doing some investigative journalism instead of waiting around for the official tally, just like they do for every other occurrence of any kind
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Jun 17, 2017 18:14
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Which is part of the reason the government is rushing to get a judge lead public inquiry in place as soon as possible to try to get something out before the end of the summer probably - with usual caveats about the effectiveness of public inquiries
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Jun 17, 2017 18:14
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kustomkarkommando posted:death certificates for missing people are issued at the conclusion of coroners inquests (a process that could take years) Wait, seriously? Surely that causes all sorts of problems for the families/estates?
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Jun 17, 2017 18:17
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Jesus, I can't imagine how difficult it's going to be identifying the remains after a fire of this scale and intensity. Not to mention I imagine large parts of the building are going to take a great deal of time, effort and caution to access safely in order to do so.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:22
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kustomkarkommando posted:Which is part of the reason the government is rushing to get a judge lead public inquiry in place as soon as possible to try to get something out before the end of the summer probably - with usual caveats about the effectiveness of public inquiries Inquiries are just a way for the government to cover their rear end by taking years to tell us what we already know, but by that point we won't be as angry. In a years time we'll find out that people cut costs and a "culture of red-tape cutting" lead to people being put at "greater risk than necessary" and there will be a scapegoat or two being fired or possibly sent to golf-jail. It'll turn out that really what they did wasn't illegal though and recommendations will be largely ignored. unless JEZZA gets in in which case the inquiry will be shortcut by deathsquads going directly to those responsible and turning them into jam.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:22
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Steve2911 posted:Wait, seriously? Surely that causes all sorts of problems for the families/estates? If there's a reasonable belief to assume someone is dead and the authorities generally agree at an inquest the process can take about a year, give or take, for a death certificate to be made to release the estate or allow life insurance pay outs. Its the process unfortunately In this case though any coroners inquest is going to hear evidence about claims of wrongful death so it may not be as quick
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Jun 17, 2017 18:23
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The number of inquests of that type are only like 10-20 a year though normally. A sudden influx of 100+ will drag things out even more. There are only so many coroners
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Jun 17, 2017 18:26
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ronya posted:britain cried for local democracy as a solution to the tensions of the 1980s, and got it good and hard In the 1980s Thatcher took power from local government, cut their funding, rate-capped them, centralized business rates, introduced penalties on those which spent 'too much' and compulsory competitive tendering. In the 1980s I was in a housing co-op, and saw the neutering of tenant power by the Housing Corporation, which demanded tenant 'participation' and removed their power to do anything but what the HC wanted.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:27
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josh04 posted:They're releasing the count of people reported missing who they've located dead or failed to locate among the survivors. The problem is that there's clearly another number, the number of unidentified bodies they've recovered from the tower, which isn't getting mentioned even as something we *ought* to know - and this is odd given that, for example in coverage of the Manchester arena bombing, the media were up all night and the next day reporting any speculation so long as they could find one local resident to state it out loud. Do you think that people are starting to suffer from "disaster fatigue" (or what ever phrase is appropriate)?
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Jun 17, 2017 18:28
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Guavanaut posted:Old Man Shouts at Claude. 
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Jun 17, 2017 18:29
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Steve2911 posted:Wait, seriously? Surely that causes all sorts of problems for the families/estates? Presumably those pale in comparison to the problems faced by a living person who's declared dead.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:30
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Jippa posted:Do you think that people are starting to suffer from "disaster fatigue" (or what ever phrase is appropriate)? You're seeing the opposite. People are becoming more and more angry about each incident.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:30
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There will probably one singular multiple fatality inquest which which may have to hear evidence on every one considered missing alongside evidence on the causes of the fire etc which will not be a fast process
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Jun 17, 2017 18:32
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Somewhere In a little room there are Tories sat around discussing how they are going to spin it that they don't know how many because "most of them were illegals innit" and try and put it out there that people are missing because they are pretending to be dead to avoid deportation.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:36
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