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What is the best flav... you all know what this question is: This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Labour |
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907 | 49.92% |
| Theresa May Team (Conservative) |
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48 | 2.64% |
| Liberal Democrats |
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31 | 1.71% |
| UKIP |
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13 | 0.72% |
| Plaid Cymru |
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25 | 1.38% |
| Green |
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22 | 1.21% |
| Scottish Socialist Party |
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12 | 0.66% |
| Scottish Conservative Party |
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1 | 0.06% |
| Scottish National Party |
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59 | 3.25% |
| Some Kind of Irish Unionist |
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4 | 0.22% |
| Alliance / Irish Nonsectarian |
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3 | 0.17% |
| Some Kind of Irish Nationalist |
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36 | 1.98% |
| Misc. Far Left Trots |
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35 | 1.93% |
| Misc. Far Right Fash |
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8 | 0.44% |
| Monster Raving Loony |
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49 | 2.70% |
| Space Navies Party |
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39 | 2.15% |
| Independent / Single Issue |
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2 | 0.11% |
| Can't Vote |
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188 | 10.35% |
| Won't Vote |
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8 | 0.44% |
| Spoiled Ballot |
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15 | 0.83% |
| Pissflaps |
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312 | 17.17% |
| Total: | 1817 votes | ||
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learnincurve posted:It's not a terrorist attack. Terrorist attacks are done for political aims. This is a copy cat murder and a hate crime. Tory party and press have used the word terrorist because your casual idiot will read that line in the paper and on lists of terrorist attacks this year and assume he's Muslim Terrorist attacks are intended to make a community scared and afraid. That was absolutely the motivation for this attack and it's absolutely right that it be labelled as such to challenge people's "terrorists = Muslim" stereotype.
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Jun 19, 2017 08:40
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learnincurve posted:It's not a terrorist attack. Terrorist attacks are done for political aims. This is a copy cat murder and a hate crime. Tory party and press have used the word terrorist because your casual idiot will read that line in the paper and on lists of terrorist attacks this year and assume he's Muslim There were supposedly two other people in the van, but I get your point.
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Jun 19, 2017 08:42
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learnincurve posted:It's not a terrorist attack. Terrorist attacks are done for political aims. This is a copy cat murder and a hate crime. Tory party and press have used the word terrorist because your casual idiot will read that line in the paper and on lists of terrorist attacks this year and assume he's Muslim his political aim is "muslims get out of my country". he did this to scare muslims into leaving his country (or to personally remove them from his country via van)
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Jun 19, 2017 08:42
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I was starting to feel some hope, and then this horrible incident happened. I wish England wasn't filled with so much anger at the wrong parties.
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Jun 19, 2017 08:43
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It's simply not the definition of terrorism - It would had to have been done for political gain. This guy just wanted to kill Muslims. Call it a hate crime, call it a racist attack, call it a copy cat murder. Stop calling lone attacks terrorism. It gives the cunts airs and graces.
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Jun 19, 2017 08:45
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learnincurve posted:It's simply not the definition of terrorism - It would had to have been done for political gain. This guy just wanted to kill Muslims. ... I'm not sure I agree with you there. I would say it's a case of both being true.
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Jun 19, 2017 08:46
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learnincurve posted:It's not a terrorist attack. Terrorist attacks are done for political aims. This is a copy cat murder and a hate crime. Tory party and press have used the word terrorist because your casual idiot will read that line in the paper and on lists of terrorist attacks this year and assume he's Muslim Terrorism has different definitions. You require explicitly political acts. I go with something like "the threat of or an act of violence intended to coerce a desired social or political response." I'm sure the police have a different one of their own. If the attackers wanted to kill Muslims, wanted to inspire fear in their communities, and hoped others would follow suit then it'd count as terrorism by my definition. With or without a manifesto. Edit: Beaten to the punch.
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Jun 19, 2017 08:50
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learnincurve posted:It's simply not the definition of terrorism - It would had to have been done for political gain. This guy just wanted to kill Muslims. Surely the same can be said of all the other recent attacks. Good to hear we've defeated terrorism.
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Jun 19, 2017 08:52
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Not sure how we can decide that this attack wasnt politically motivated it seems more likely than not to me.
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Jun 19, 2017 08:53
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Presumably, classifying it as a terrorist attack means the police get greater powers?
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Jun 19, 2017 08:54
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So was it at the terror mosque or not? News said yes, some goon said no.
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Jun 19, 2017 09:06
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Tortuga posted:Surely the same can be said of all the other recent attacks. This. If London Bridge was a terrorist attack, and most people would call it that, so was this. Literally the only difference between the two was the skin colour of the people doing it. Racism is an ideology and 'I want to kill all the muslims' is a terrorist statement.
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Jun 19, 2017 09:09
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Trying to think up a counter-terrorism joke here but I never really played counterstrike.
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Jun 19, 2017 09:13
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learnincurve posted:It's simply not the definition of terrorism - It would had to have been done for political gain. This guy just wanted to kill Muslims. terrorism ˈtɛrərɪzəm/ noun the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
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Jun 19, 2017 09:13
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I suspect one hang-up is a blurring of the lines between hate crimes, crimes with a lot of casualties, and terrorism. If a guy got drunk and spur of the moment decided to shoot several religious minorities out of his own hatred that'd be a hate crime. It might even get investigated as terrorism for a period of time. But it wouldn't have the requisite desire for a political/social change associated with terrorism. If another guy killed everyone at his work with pressure cooker bombs because of a workplace dispute that'd be mass murder. But the motive isn't in line with an act of terrorism. Even if a weapon associated with terrorism was used. It'd still be investigated as terrorism at first because of the method. In this case the authorities at least suspect that the attack met their minimum requirements to be an act of terrorism. So they're treating it as terrorism. Which would be the case even if the death count were 0.
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Jun 19, 2017 09:15
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When will white community leaders condemn this atrocity?
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Jun 19, 2017 09:18
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Osama Dozen-Dongs posted:So was it at the terror mosque or not? News said yes, some goon said no. Different mosque according to the Guardian's reporter on the scene
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Jun 19, 2017 09:19
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Tortuga posted:Surely the same can be said of all the other recent attacks. Except Jo Cox's murder, which is a textbook example of terrorism and yet a lot of the media refused to call it terrorism.
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Jun 19, 2017 09:19
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I would blow Dane Cook posted:When will white community leaders condemn this atrocity? We need to seal the borders from these whites until we know what the hell is going on.
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Jun 19, 2017 09:20
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SteelMentor posted:We need to seal the borders from these whites until we know what the hell is going on. Frankly I think white van should be doing more to police their own community.
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Jun 19, 2017 09:23
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I would blow Dane Cook posted:When will white van community leaders condemn this atrocity?
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Jun 19, 2017 09:23
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Maybe they were just trying to sell some dodgy speakers?
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Jun 19, 2017 09:26
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Tortuga posted:Surely the same can be said of all the other recent attacks. I'm not saying it isn't. The question is if one man is going around saying "god has told me to kill you!" Is it a terrorist attack? This whole thing stinks to me and it's the festering stench of hypocrisy. The Daily mail and other right wing rags have followed this nasty Tory agenda of fuelling hatered and resentment against Muslims and now what? They think that calling it a terrorist attack and not a hate crime will give them the justification to say "well we called that white guy a terrorist too, look we are not racist!" Look at the left wing press, compared to the right wing press when it was announced. Left wing press called it an attack, right wing press leaped on it calling it a terrorist attack as soon as they heard the word van and before anything was known. How much of this now is because they can't do take backs?
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Jun 19, 2017 09:27
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ukle posted:Except Jo Cox's murder, which is a textbook example of terrorism and yet a lot of the media refused to call it terrorism. or even an assassination
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Jun 19, 2017 09:29
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learnincurve posted:It's simply not the definition of terrorism - It would had to have been done for political gain. This guy just wanted to kill Muslims. You weren't on the ABC radio about 45 minutes ago whinging that it wasn't a terrorist attack because people weren't doing it in the name of allah, were you?
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Jun 19, 2017 09:30
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learnincurve posted:I'm not saying it isn't. The question is if one man is going around saying "god has told me to kill you!" Is it a terrorist attack? Are you saying that the Met are only calling this terrorism because the Daily Mail did.
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Jun 19, 2017 09:30
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Catzilla posted:Presumably, classifying it as a terrorist attack means the police get greater powers? Yes. The point of "treating it as a terrorist attack", to use the carefully-chosen phrasing they do, is that it means that you're focusing on the possibility that the attacker was part of a network who may have the means to conduct further attacks. The additional powers they get under the law to investigate terrorism help them to track down that network (if it exists), they don't really help with the investigation/prosecution of the guy himself.
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Jun 19, 2017 09:37
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No. I'm saying instantly calling every attack made by a Muslim a terrorist attack, before actually checking any of the facts is some of the poo poo that fueled this crime in the first place. The Mail will point at this and say "well we assumed he was a terrorist too, so we can't be racist!" I guarantee it.
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Jun 19, 2017 09:38
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I'd say, even though this might be simplistic, that any sort of highly violent and negative action designed to invoke a sense of terror in a community is a terrorist attack.
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Jun 19, 2017 09:38
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Zephro posted:See I would find this stuff more convincing if literally hundreds of millions of people all over East Asia and the Americas didn't live in tower blocks without these problems. The problem of tower blocks in the West seems to be mostly confined to the West, which suggests either we suck at building high rise (which we do) and/or some cultural factor makes us dislike them for some reason. I spent the first sixteen years of my life living much more than 4 floors up and never felt like I was some outcast from society, and neither did anyone else I knew. People say "societal ills" and that calls to mind the idea of some single germ that, if only it could be found and fought, would make a better society, but it's really more like a tree collapsing under the weight of snow. You can sift the wreckage and look for the snowflake that finally tipped it over the edge, but without the stress from every other one already there, what would even have happened? Living too far off the ground is a stressor, but it's just one snowflake. I do not at all doubt that millions of people can live too far off the ground for their entire lives and be happy. But if you take people who are already at their breaking point and living too far off the ground, and move them closer to ground, fewer of them will break. The whole Center for Environmental Structures series is basically about how to pull as much stress as possible out of the design of a city. If you want to find a reason why tower blocks might be a problem in the West in particular, you could consider that for some reason around about 1920 people started manufacturing and selling these Crazygas Aerosolizing Robots and for some reason they became widespread consumer goods which people gladly ran for several hours a day, and it took multiple generations for the government to actually get around to saying "seriously make a non-crazygas version" and for that to stick?
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Jun 19, 2017 09:39
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learnincurve posted:No. I'm saying instantly calling every attack made by a Muslim a terrorist attack, before actually checking any of the facts is some of the poo poo that fueled this crime in the first place. I'm not aware of any violent attacks by Muslims that were labelled as terrorist attacks by the authorities but turned out not to be?
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Jun 19, 2017 09:42
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Glazius posted:If you want to find a reason why tower blocks might be a problem in the West in particular, you could consider that for some reason around about 1920 people started manufacturing and selling these Crazygas Aerosolizing Robots and for some reason they became widespread consumer goods which people gladly ran for several hours a day, and it took multiple generations for the government to actually get around to saying "seriously make a non-crazygas version" and for that to stick? e: Party Boat posted:I'm not aware of any violent attacks by Muslims that were labelled as terrorist attacks by the authorities but turned out not to be? Guavanaut fucked around with this message at 09:46 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 09:43
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Guavanaut posted:There was this guy, who they thought was a Muslim and a terrorist, but turned out to not be a Muslim and not doing it for political aims but still could have murdered a bunch of people as a 'prank' according to the evidence, so I'm not sure what that would be classed as. *flies plane into World Trade Centre* It's just a prank, bro!
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Jun 19, 2017 09:49
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Party Boat posted:I'm not aware of any violent attacks by Muslims that were labelled as terrorist attacks by the authorities but turned out not to be? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Westminster_attack "Police have found no link with any terrorist organisation" "By 1 April, all 12 suspects arrested after the attack had been released without charge". It makes him no less evil, he's still a mass murderer no matter what you call him. One of the many things that should worry us is that how many people know he was working alone? How many people think he was part of some terrorist network?
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Jun 19, 2017 09:50
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learnincurve posted:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Westminster_attack "On 22 March 2017, a terrorist attack took place in the vicinity of the Palace of Westminster in London, seat of the British Parliament." 🤔
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Jun 19, 2017 09:53
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learnincurve posted:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Westminster_attack Oh right, he didn't mean to instill mass panic in the Muslim community through his actions, he just wanted to kill maybe a dozen and then he was done, God rest his soul
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Jun 19, 2017 09:54
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"Police have found no link with any terrorist organisation" != "it was not a terrorist attack" Breivik's attack was a terrorist attack, as he had an identified political goal and set of targets. He was not part of any 'terrorist organisation' other than the general European far right. Same with Copeland in London.
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Jun 19, 2017 09:54
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There's no link to ISIS with a lot of attacks that they get credit for. Just one crazy motherfucker who afterward goes "BTW I love ISIS."
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Jun 19, 2017 09:56
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I'll hold my hands up and say I'm often really bad getting what I want to say out of my head on paper in a coherent way. I don't like reading the word terrorism in the papers, this is written far better than I ever could: https://www.theguardian.com/global/commentisfree/2015/jan/27/is-it-time-to-stop-using-the-word-terrorist
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Jun 19, 2017 10:01
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Guavanaut posted:"Police have found no link with any terrorist organisation" != "it was not a terrorist attack" Bang on the money.
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Jun 19, 2017 10:15
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