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You know what will save evo? The 16 year old party game that has the same 3 winners every tourney
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Jun 20, 2017 06:00
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Is Street Fighter V really bad enough to kill an entire genre of game? I don't play it myself but I watch the top 8s at whatever tournament is on and it seems entertaining enough It's not. It's proved it's not good enough to carry the insane numbers of 2016, but since there's still the last reg week, I'm pretty sure SF will have pretty similar numbers to USF4's last year (NRS is also gonna catch up, I'd wager). You have two (well, three) games with actual big player dropoffs in Smash and Marvel, and numerically speaking only the Smashes really matter. Those games always had very little crossover with SFV when it came to entrants, and they had pretty significant exclusive player numbers (like 50% for 4 and 67% for Melee). so I find it kinda hard to say SFV poisoned that well. We're probably just seeing a combo of EVO getting more expensive + SFV Release Hype dying off + Smash community deciding they'd rather do their own thing again.
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Jun 20, 2017 06:12
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Is Street Fighter V really bad enough to kill an entire genre of game? I don't play it myself but I watch the top 8s at whatever tournament is on and it seems entertaining enough No it isn't that level of bad and if FGs die off with Tekken 7 out there then nothing was going to 'save' it anyways.
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Jun 20, 2017 06:14
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Doom and gloom is the name of the game.
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Jun 20, 2017 06:15
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If sfv was going to kill the fgc it would have happened already, just a lovely game lul right now.
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Jun 20, 2017 06:30
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Serious question but what is it about the other games that keeps people from picking them up and boosting their numbers? Are the extra system mechanics for each game too much work to figure out or is it literally just people want to play SF because everyone else plays SF?
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Jun 20, 2017 07:03
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Jun 20, 2017 07:04
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Is Street Fighter V really bad enough to kill an entire genre of game? No single game is bad enough to kill an entire genre. People just wouldn't play that game. SF5 is divisive but I enjoy playing it and a know quite a few sponsored players who also enjoy playing it. It's not universally reviled like you might assume by reading this thread.
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Jun 20, 2017 07:42
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I haven't watched a single event in 8 months and its largely because SF5 is straight booty fwiw
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Jun 20, 2017 07:47
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WDIIA posted:I haven't watched a single event in 8 months and its largely because SF5 is straight booty fwiw You should watch the Injustice 2 top 8 fro CEO, it is good poo poo.
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Jun 20, 2017 08:07
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there really shouldn't be a stabilization to numbers lower than the evo before last if there's any actual growth which is the bigger thing folks should be looking out for. sf5 isn't enough to kill the genre dead but it is slowly choking the life out of local scenes via stagnation. there's not really any substantial amount of new folks coming in in the same vein that sf4 and marvel 3 despite that massive growth/bump in folks actually going to EVO last year. i'd really like to see how many EVO entrants are repeat entries vs. new entries for this year b/c i'd wager that 'new entry' category is the lowest it's been by a large margin for the post-SF4 era of fighting games. if marvel 4 follows that same trend of being trash it's probably gonna continue the same deal- a lack of growth causing folks to not come out anymore b/c they don't give a drat about the game with nobody to really fill their shoes. well, i dunno. that's just my observation from the ground level alongside hearsay from other scenes following the same trend and it kinda sucks 'cuz the communal aspect is one of the big parts of the genre to begin with. it's the same poo poo as restaurants where the majority of potential competitive players don't really outright say it's bad or whatever- they just stop playing. the game simply doesn't have the same magnetic appeal that previous games had despite the increased funding and attempts to put eyes onto the game. i'm still teaching people marvel in 2017 who have picked up the game from seeing it on streams and poo poo, folks who come out to locals and play in events despite being so behind the curve that they'd never realistically catch up. part of that is definitely the inherent appeal in infinite coming out and the idea that some basic fundamentals can be carried over from 3 to infinite (though i'm not certain of how true that will turn out to be) but if it turns out to be the same as 5 i have no doubt these folks will just stop playin' as well- there's already worries about the game based on the demo that capcom put out. despite being newer, somehow that simply has not happened for sf5- there's folks who were joined in at the end of sf4's lifecycle, but there is literally not a single new person who has joined my local scene because of sf5. when it first came out there was plenty of new blood, but over time there somehow managed to be an actual 0% retainment rate which is still mindblowing to me. i'm sure most scenes don't have that bad of a situation but hearing similar enough stuff happening across the board is definitely worrying. here's alex valle wondering about this poo poo as well. i was just listening to this while typing this out and it coincidentally came up which is tight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVq37fC3QN4&t=1154s Reiley posted:Serious question but what is it about the other games that keeps people from picking them up and boosting their numbers? Are the extra system mechanics for each game too much work to figure out or is it literally just people want to play SF because everyone else plays SF? to summmarize: https://my.mixtape.moe/bhfdoi.webm (i just had this sitting around for awhile b/c i couldn't get the drat infinite box to show up in the sky) Fereydun fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 08:24
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WDIIA posted:I haven't watched a single event in 8 months and its largely because SF5 is straight booty fwiw Tekken is back to being fun to watch, and CEO Top 8 Injustice was p.rad
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Jun 20, 2017 09:12
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Huge respect to Valle after watching that interview.
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Jun 20, 2017 10:33
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yall are new to lulls its ok every single game you like went through this. the golden era had a big fat deadspot smack in the middle of it. 3s a3 cvs2 mvc2 all out at the same time...and people just not motivated as much. this happened for SF4 too. relax kids evo wont die.
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Jun 20, 2017 11:03
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Valle praised the game play of MvC though after attacking SFV. Are we sure this isn't next level shilling?
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Jun 20, 2017 15:10
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Sarchasm posted:No single game is bad enough to kill an entire genre. People just wouldn't play that game. unfortunately untrue for games that set the standards for a genre. see sc2 for rts edit also fereydun how is a zero percent retain rate for sfv players mind blowing to you? it's a hollow shallow game designed to attract people that will be repelled by the Truth of competition if they get serious enough Zand fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 17:17
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SC2 didn't kill RTS games, MOBAs did. RTS games have a similar FG problem tho, where nobody wants to actually learn how to play them.
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Jun 20, 2017 17:38
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Hace posted:SC2 didn't kill RTS games, MOBAs did. sc1 was still big before blizzard announced they were dropping it for sc2. now they are crawling back with the remake they abandoned the design philosophy of their once popular and good games to appeal to casuals who only superficially liked the poo poo anyway. it didn't work out well. sounds familiar to me
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Jun 20, 2017 17:58
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No really, MOBAs killed RTS games. Not everything is an analogue to Street Fighter.
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Jun 20, 2017 17:59
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Hopefully something will kill Street Fighter the same way where it strips it of a lot of "traditional" poo poo that's not actually fun or good and adds some other stuff that's fun and good that a lot of people like and then makes a zillion dollars.
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Jun 20, 2017 18:07
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Zand posted:edit also fereydun how is a zero percent retain rate for sfv players mind blowing to you? it's a hollow shallow game designed to attract people that will be repelled by the Truth of competition if they get serious enough i didn't think it'd be a literal 0%, that's loving crazy. there's folks out there who genuinely like the game so you would assume that there'd be new blood for it as well to some degree. AkumaHokoru posted:yall are new to lulls its ok every single game you like went through this. they are pushing the game and putting so much backing into it- that nearly 6k entrant count for EVO last year despite the trip cost increase wasn't some freak accident, it's folks who really wanted to like the game and came out to play because of the increased exposure. like, i'm not really sure how it could possibly be argued that there's a lull if the year prior was full of recordbreakers for event numbers
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Jun 20, 2017 18:12
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Fereydun posted:there really shouldn't be a stabilization to numbers lower than the evo before last if there's any actual growth which is the bigger thing folks should be looking out for. It's a recession for sure, but I think 2016 was just WAY outside the curve because of New Street Fighter Hype, considering it broke single-game registration numbers in like 4 days. CEO went through a similar phenomenon this year too, and I still think the biggest narrative here is more how the Smash scene is seceding again. Unlike SFV, there's nothing that could explain a 60%+ dropoff there for BOTH games other than them wanting to do their own poo poo. Every other community seems to be following their usual curve. About retention, it's kinda hard to confirm it without solid data, but you're right that SFV didn't attract many people to the scene, I'm seeing that around local FG circles too. However, I don't think it has to do with the game being too "shallow" from an entry-level standpoint, as Zand proposes. It's more that I barely see anyone TRYING to get into the game since June 2016. In fact, I think it's exactly because of the game not being attractive to casual players that SFV is stagnant. Not that it didn't try to be, but the terrible launch, mediocre graphics (with occasional meme face) and bad word-of-mouth meant that very few people outside competitive circles actually picked it up. Also let's be fair, outside of SF4 and maybe the first couple of years of UMVC3, there isn't a single fighting game that kept adding players to their scene. The genre is stagnant as a whole, which I suppose only makes SFV's failure sadder, because it was one of the games that could break that mold. Intel&Sebastian posted:Hopefully something will kill Street Fighter the same way where it strips it of a lot of "traditional" poo poo that's not actually fun or good and adds some other stuff that's fun and good that a lot of people like and then makes a zillion dollars. there's nothing fun about mobas alternatively they did it's called smash bros
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Jun 20, 2017 18:14
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idk, I hate most of them too and they're getting long in the tooth unto themselves but there's clearly something to it if everyone would rather do that than play an RTS.
Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 18:22
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What is it about SFV that makes it "shallow"? I think another poster earlier called it fraudulent and random as well. I don't really follow the scene too closely so the reviews and reactions I saw were mostly about busted online and lack of single-player content, which I assume the FGC didn't care much about the second one -- but that the fighting mechanics themselves seemed solid? From a spectator's perspective it seems to look all right
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Jun 20, 2017 18:22
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How come no one seems to think that Evo getting stupidly expensive to attend has anything to do with declining numbers? Of course last year was gonna be a bump when there was a new major SF release, but at this point it's $75 base cost (which only covers Fri/Sat without competing and no spectating on Sunday), +$10 per game entry, +$100 if you want to actually be on the floor to watch Sunday finals, +$180/night to stay in the event hotel, +flights, +food and drink. If you want to enter 2 games, stay for Sunday, and split a queen bed hotel room between 4 people, it's gonna be $350 each just to be there, without flights or food or drinks (which can easily push the whole thing toward $1k). That's pretty rough for younger/newer players who are just getting into the scene and want to try being there in person for a major event.
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Jun 20, 2017 18:31
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Lack of variety among characters and their options, CC being afraid to buff characters who suck Slow rear end movement 90% of buttons are boring and short (resulting in watching tournament matches where Karin is tossing out st.mk a zillion times) Everything is minus on block and footsies isn't worth playing The entire design philosophy behind doing things like making zoning not work and invincible DP's nerfed out
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Jun 20, 2017 18:31
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:What is it about SFV that makes it "shallow"? I think another poster earlier called it fraudulent and random as well. Nah the mechanics have been lovely since release. The things that make a game Street Fightery are classic contests of zoning and careful footsies; SFV does away with this in favor of trying to be more "aggressive," but what that really means is that characters are really homogenous, everyone basically has 1 combo, and hitconfirm -> V-trigger -> super is such a stupid damage swing that rounds become coin flips because the person who's been winning the whole time isn't actually winning if the other guy has meter.
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Jun 20, 2017 18:33
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:What is it about SFV that makes it "shallow"? I think another poster earlier called it fraudulent and random as well. almost all the criticism on here has been about the endless ways sf5 fails in a mechanical sense, just on and on. reviews and laypeople and so on dont mention this because they dont know poo poo about fighting games
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Jun 20, 2017 18:37
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Dias I agree with you that the game isn't appealing to newbies. the issue is that the game got made poo poo by the attempt to appeal to people that aren't worth appealing to, and failed at it anyway. you can make appealing games that are friendly to new blood players without making your game poo poo. capcom just didn't do this, they did something else that's weird and bad with their attempt
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Jun 20, 2017 18:41
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I think it's entirely possible that SF5 in its current state isn't as shallow as it seems. But it's hard to really say because 1. V-Triggers are so ridiculously overpowered that they decide most matches 2. Anti-airs are too weak discouraging you from actually playing the ground game 3. Despite the addition of backroll and the removal of hard knockdowns, as soon as someone is knocked down the advantage swings way too hard in favor of the attacker. This was a problem even before invincible DPs were removed.
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Jun 20, 2017 18:44
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Sc2 being bad didn't kill RTS, LoL did by being simpler and team-based but with many of the same skills crossing over. Sc2 only got bad with the expansions, wings of liberty was a joy to play and watch. Now it's really bland and samey, and the lowered skill ceiling is a part of that, top level games have lost their big impact moments. Blizz tried to fix that by adding more units with controlled abilities, but it never really meshed together and none of them turned out to be as fun as controlling units in SC1.
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Jun 20, 2017 18:49
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Hopefully something will kill Street Fighter the same way where it strips it of a lot of "traditional" poo poo that's not actually fun or good and adds some other stuff that's fun and good that a lot of people like and then makes a zillion dollars. Going on a tangent here but I haven't played any other fgs since tekken 7 came out. While t7 is certainly engrossing and brutally demanding in a way that leaves little time for other fgs, that game is so fun and good to me because the neutral game is no-frills and deeply rooted in tradition. The tekken fundamentals of spacing, poking, forcing whiffs with immaculate movement, etc. etc. are not only more or less written in stone and rooted in legacy, but also incredibly rewarding in-game and deeply satisfying in the way that something you truly love never gets stale. I can't say the same for the mainline street fighter series where the speed of your walk and the range of your low forward are not givens but uncertainties. I can fightcade zand in some bargain bin trash game like karnov's and yet the basic acts of moving left/right and pressing buttons still feel great and powerful. I would really like it if street fighter returned to and embraced this "traditional" style instead of talking up whatever v-disease game mechanic they're going to add next iteration to 'add gameplay depth' at the expense of the foundations that make a simple 2d fighting game inherently fun.
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Jun 20, 2017 18:49
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I think the game is mechanically fine and fairly rewarding for newbies or for people who only play SF games casually. What I think someone above is saying (and I agree with) is that the game doesn't get new people now because of all the poo poo surrounding it, like the launch, the rootkit stuff and the subsequent pure online anger about it. Like even in this forum, a new person asking about about something in the SFV thread is usually greeted with a bunch of responses to refund the game or Play Tekken or LOL CAPCOM and whatever instead of any actual help. My point is the whole environment around the game is super toxic, which hurts expanding the player base more than the actual in game fighting game stuff. Which is still usually pretty fun in a vacuum if you aren't a super seasoned FG veteran. I think something like the rumored Super relaunch would help a lot of this if Capcom doesn't completely gently caress it up (which is asking a lot).
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Jun 20, 2017 18:50
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dangerdoom volvo posted:almost all the criticism on here has been about the endless ways sf5 fails in a mechanical sense, just on and on. reviews and laypeople and so on dont mention this because they dont know poo poo about fighting games The thing is, with SF4 you had to be playing at a relatively high level to start "feeling" what people generally didn't like about it's mechanics, and even higher to really articulate what exactly was negative about it. And the vast majority of people playing online weren't at that level. There was a whole giant sea of people who were in a sweet spot of just enjoying a pretty good FG with a ton of characters and variety who could start winning matches with whatever character they wanted if they practiced hard enough (for example I mained Hugo in that game and had probably the most fun I've ever had in FGs). With SF5 I'm a solid bronze/silver straddler and I can absolutely feel and articulate the bad mechanics even without needing to reference this thread. And it feels bad to try and play low or mid tier because there's not enough characters and variety and openness in the system to allow you to not get rear end rammed 4 out of every 5 matches. And even worse: Even though Capcom mucked around with the game in order to appeal to and recruit new people, they chased all of those people away by not having an Arcade mode ready to go on day one. So now no one is happy. Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 18:53
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Hace posted:Also your guesses are insanely whack lmfao
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Jun 20, 2017 18:57
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Zand posted:Dias I agree with you that the game isn't appealing to newbies. the issue is that the game got made poo poo by the attempt to appeal to people that aren't worth appealing to, and failed at it anyway. you can make appealing games that are friendly to new blood players without making your game poo poo. capcom just didn't do this, they did something else that's weird and bad with their attempt I get that, but then the issue here isn't appealing to casuals, it's being poo poo at it, and we can agree on that. Capcom has just been poo poo at making fighting games overall, really. It's not even like SFV's mechanics made the game more scrub-friendly at all - they took away Ultras and replaced them with a harder to use mechanic, less advantage on stuff means you can't just press buttons, knockdown game favors the guy that actually learned their meaties, there's a LOT of hit-confirming now with big punishes if you gently caress up...the two changes that favor casual players are easier combos (but gently caress 1f links anyway) and anti-airs sucking. Still, you'll see people crying their eyes out because of st.lps, so... Capcom seems to mistake "simple to play" for "limited", really. A limited game tends to be simple to play, but the opposite isn't always true, and when you limit a new player's options, they're not gonna have fun since they'll just get DESTROYED trying to do their one thing. Do the same on the other side of the spectrum and you'll have games decided by who made the correct guess and got their one thing started.
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Jun 20, 2017 19:18
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https://twitter.com/MrWiz/status/877228122654900224 gotta get that arena from 80% empty to maybe 75% empty at best. You know what would put butts in the seats for sure? Melee Reiley posted:Serious question but what is it about the other games that keeps people from picking them up and boosting their numbers? Are the extra system mechanics for each game too much work to figure out or is it literally just people want to play SF because everyone else plays SF? The same reason people don't drop soccer for hockey even though it's two teams trying to put an object in a goal. SF style =/= NRS style =/= anime airdashers even though it's two people compete to knock each other out first.
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Jun 20, 2017 19:23
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C. Everett Koop posted:The same reason people don't drop soccer for hockey even though it's two teams trying to put an object in a goal. SF style =/= NRS style =/= anime airdashers even though it's two people compete to knock each other out first. this is also an insanely wack guess
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Jun 20, 2017 19:26
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Dias posted:I get that, but then the issue here isn't appealing to casuals, it's being poo poo at it, and we can agree on that. Capcom has just been poo poo at making fighting games overall, really. It's not even like SFV's mechanics made the game more scrub-friendly at all - they took away Ultras and replaced them with a harder to use mechanic, less advantage on stuff means you can't just press buttons, knockdown game favors the guy that actually learned their meaties, there's a LOT of hit-confirming now with big punishes if you gently caress up...the two changes that favor casual players are easier combos (but gently caress 1f links anyway) and anti-airs sucking. Still, you'll see people crying their eyes out because of st.lps, so... This basically just draws me back top the dota comparisons: dota has always been balanced for the people who play it competitively because the stuff that newer players get barely scratches the surface of that information. The game is INCREDIBLY deep, at a level that would be a fault in many other games, but having matchmaking means that you lose a few of your first games then go play with other people who don't know everything. SFIV, with whatever problems it had, to me as a casual player and regular viewer, looked like it had that depth but it was still fun to play when I was just fumbling around and rewarding to get better at when I took a little time with it. The quoted post does a good job describing how I felt playing SFV, that the game wasn't easier or better, just a little simpler, and it's not really more fun to watch, so while it's alright to dick around in it doesn't feel like it's worth putting that same effort in. In theory, I'm basically the player that it seems like capcom was trying to attract, but in reality V was just a game that my computer handled worse, didn't have the characters I'd worked on anymore, wasn't on a console I owned or had a stick for, and represented starting over knowledge-wise for a game that looks worse.
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Jun 20, 2017 19:54
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dangerdoom volvo posted:this is also an insanely wack guess Not sure how "thing a isn't the same as thing b" counts as a wack guess there boss.
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Jun 20, 2017 20:01
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