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This is a cool take, thanks
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Jun 20, 2017 22:28
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Sir Kodiak posted:Nope. He's talking about acting in accordance with your beliefs. You're misunderstanding Diana's statement. She no longer tries to save mankind because she believes no one can help them make that choice. Steve distinguishes between acting for a just reward and acting on beliefs because all of mankind is fallen, and what people deserve doesn't matter. Diana learns the power of love through Steve's sacrifice. These are biblical concepts. She then turns into a flying cross made of god-lightning. People who don't see the Christian imagery are ignoring what's on the screen. Alfred: Everything's changed. Men fall from the sky, the gods hurl thunderbolts, innocents die. That's how it starts, sir. The fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness that turns good men... cruel. The key point is that we're watching a criticism. We presume history proceeds as expected and that WWII occurs, and the tenet that love conquers evil will fail. This doesn't concern Wonder Woman because she effectively acts as an indifferent Calvinist. She'll slay gods from other worlds, but she won't try to save mankind because it's not up to her. Chief's people remain displaced. Sameer remains discriminated against. WWII happens. This is in stark contrast to Batman, who very much cares about deserve: Diana Prince: A hundred years ago I walked away from mankind; from a century of horrors... Men made a world where standing together is impossible. Bruce Wayne: Men are still good. We fight, we kill, we betray one another, but we can rebuild. We can do better. We will. We have to. That's the twist in BvS. The indifferent god Luther has been raging against is Wonder Woman.
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Jun 21, 2017 00:37
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teagone posted:I wish someone would name and shame the execs or whoever that were confused about the No Man's Land scene and wanted it cut out of the film/replaced with something dumb. I want to revel in the schadenfreude of the internet burning them down into ash because of how goddamn stupid they were for even suggesting to remove that iconic (imo) setpiece. Film execs are too rich and isolated to care whatever random Twitter people think. In fact, they're in the same class of people that own and control social media platforms that exploit people's most negative emotions. A self-satisfactory illusion of power in a powerless age, which again, would have been another theme the film could have touched on considering the despair of World War 1, "young men die for a rich man's war," etc etc. I've been playing through Battlefield 1 and it made me come back and want to touch on a point about Wonder Woman and why outside of a few overenthusiastic people, this isn't really a film that will be remembered, much less considered "iconic." People compare this film to a Marvel movie, and it shares the Marvel problem of not really having a meaningful villain or doing anything of interest with the setting. Battlefield 1's problem is that it tries to turn the War to end All Wars as technology and tactics changed dramatically into yet another modern military shooter campaign, however it manages to nail the emotional beats of the everyman's despair. In an early level you drive a tank across enemy lines, get bogged down in mud, and actually play as a pidgeon flying back to headquarters and looking down at the horrendous, hellacious man-made hell that you just fought through, seeing it extend for miles upon miles. While Battlefield 1 lacks any sort of superheroes or supervillains outside of about half a dozen videogame protagonists, it's far more successful at establishing the setting and the sheer vastness of it than having Chris Prine explain it to her. What follows in the now famous "No Man's Land" scene becomes comedic in comparison.  In 2017's Woman of Wonder, the virtual reality pornographic satire of Wonder Woman, there's a sequence where a German goon shoots a Luger at point blank range in an attempt to kill the Woman of Wonder. She easily deflects them with her wrists in what is clearly a tribute to 2017's Wonder Woman, except the special effects team forgot to dub in the last few gunshots, so she's essentially deflecting air for several seconds. In contrast to Wonder Woman, it becomes laughable as our heroine treads across No Man's Land, casually deflecting rounds aimed squarely at her head whilst her companions charge in after her, realizing she's "drawing fire." Then machine guns, the great terror of the war in their ability to cut down entire charges with ease, proceed to fire directly on her shield, or below her shield but to the right or left of our heroine, as her friends take up the nearby flank and lay down fire, before advancing on the German trench and effortlessly carving through them. It's also largely ahistorical to even have a "No Man's Land" considering that at 1918 the Germans were mostly on the run, thanks to the invention of tanks which were largely on the British side. It's comical considering the reality of the setting they're using and how much they handwave away the reality of it that a loving Battlefield game manages to have a more emotionally resonating sequence with a goddamn pidgeon. It's the great superhero movie problem - the constant lack of a true villain to justify as fantastical a response as a Amazonian demigod. Batman vs. Superman ends with a generic muscle monster, Deadpool has some dude with axes whose name nobody remembers, Avengers AOU has infinite robots, the list goes on. Wonder Woman has a dude in medieval armor that she defeats with love or whatever. In comic books, the best villains aren't big men who punch things really hard. They're villains with motivation, plots, and largely outwit our heroes. Evil doesn't win become good is dumb, evil wins when they're more clever than the hero. They are also largely more fantastical and larger than life than standard villain fair. Lex Luthor masterminds his way into the White House, Norman Osborne sidesteps his way into using government power to form a supervillain group, Ozymandias brings about world peace by unleashing an alien on New York City, Kingpin picks apart Daredevil's life bit by bit until he mentally breaks. There's somewhat of a stab at this in Wonder Woman, but it thematically stumbles through this with the elegance and care of a bull in a china shop. Taking the time to sit down and try to rewrite a basic outline for this movie, it should have gone something like this:  The film opens with the ancient Greek "Fates" revealing that something has gone horribly wrong with how history has diverged from it's threads, and tell the Amazonians they must prepare their greatest warriors, with cryptic metaphors about the clash of steel titans upon the mortal-made underworld - yet as the Amazonians are isolated from our world, they do not understand. Soon after, Captain Kirk shows up to warn them about the Germans invading, we have all of that sequence, Wonder Woman and Chris Pine head off to London to see what is to be done. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO9pOlUhmPI&t=160s In our fish out of water montage, Diana comes across the White Feather Movement, a brigade of women tasked with shaming and humiliating men who haven't joined up to fight - putting feathers in their hair, calling them cowards for not being in uniform, etc. - Diana confronts them asking why have they not gone to fight as well, why are they not in uniform, and it's a fun little comedic yet enlightening bit about the horrors of war and how they intersect with the oppression of women in a supposedly enlightened society. That's truly the greatest crime of Wonder Woman - is that it doesn't take advantage of the settling and the uniqueness of World War 1, nor does it use this setting to inject some fantastical larger than life comic book villainy. We come to learn that the 1918 we know has not come to pass - the Germans have held steady and are actually gaining ground thanks to a new technological terror, the "War Wheel."  A massive terror of steel and spikes, they push back against our tanks and pave through No Man's Land as if it was little more than rough soil. Wonder Woman knows that something here is clearly wrong and that the machinations of Ares are at work here. Terrified, and unsure of what to do, the British high command send Steve Trevor and his squad to go behind enemy lines to see if there is some sort of weakness. To do so, they have to get through Verdun, and the "No Man's Land" that stretches for miles upon miles, Diana remarks that this is the domain of Hades, and a great power is at work here for the land of the underworld to be made real, a River Styx of bodies trapped out beyond the trenches. Soon after, we hear the machinations of the War Wheel in the distance, coming to plough through this sector. The men hide in the trenches, and Diana with sword and steel in hand, ready to face this steel beast of fantastical evil down. She leaps and she stabs and carves through the steel skin of the 20 foot terror, peeling the crew from their seats and casting them into the River Styx, left to flee for their lives as Chris and the rest of the line push forward, Diana holding up this absurdist steel mechanation as a giant shield, pushing it forward in order to cover the men beside her, filling their hearts with courage, and one remarks that Steve's friend is truly a "woman of wonder." *rimshot*  The God of War, who has come down from the obscurity of Mount Olympus to directly assist the Germans from behind enemy lines, catches wind of this and flies into a rage. His power comes from war, and this war, the Great War, and all of it's horror, is the source of his power - he feeds off of the needless deaths and endless slaughter, and he has planned to make this a war that will go on until the end of time, turning Earth itself into a hellacious nightmare - locking the great powers of the world into infinite overlapping treaties and then triggering a domino effect via the assassination of Franz Ferdinand - as we learn via flashback. Now that the Amazonians have caught onto his plot, of plunging the mortal world into infinite war, he is forced to forced to accelerate his plans, and gives the Germans plans for all sorts of weapons - walking tanks, floating airships, a bunch of militaristic dieselpunk nightmare poo poo which would plunge the world into a dark age of infinite war. Wonder Woman, Steve, and company push through and learn of the location of this great German manufacturing center of these horrible War Wheels and other weapons that Diana senses are what the workings of the God of War directly interfering in the world of Men. Kirk and his redshirts plot to demolish the entire complex, and understand this is likely a suicide mission. Diana's role is to carve through as many goons as she can, in a violent diversion to give cover for her comrades. The plan starts off going without a hitch, as dieselpunk mecha soldiers do their best to try and cut Diana down, as she starts to break a sweat darting around their slow, weighted suits of iron, cutting them down. Suddenly, a new foe takes the field.  Oh, poo poo! It's Kratos! How the hell did WB get this license? The mortal who killed Gods and became the sitting God of War, in a German uniform with his obnoxious golden lion fists comes charging out, and takes Diana by surprise. The two have a brutal fight, ripping the complex apart, as Kratos lectures Diana on how the Greek pantheon has become weak and left the mortal world to be conquered and how he'd masterminded a plot to turn the world into his domain via the weakness of the hearts of men. Diana decries his exploitation, and why don't you fight a real warrior, like me, a proud Amazonian woman, lifting the cannon from a fallen dieselpunk trooper and shattering both of Kratos' lionfists. He pulls out his iconic chainblades and Diana is knocked on her back feet, taken aback before remembering her training, some throwaway line from Themyscria - and she darts and dodges and swats away his fantastical flameblades, before chucking her sword into his belly, gutting him like the mortal he was born as. Obviously this fight should go on quite a bit longer than I've detailed but you get the picture - it should be fantastical and over the top, yet hard hitting and really selling the idea of two titans clashing, one overpowering the other in raw force, and forcing the other to rely on her heart, courage, and wits to slay our villain, fuckin' old-style. Walking away, Steve and his crew try to take some of the blueprints home so that the American and British empires can safeguard the world, but Diana snatches them up and burns them, insisting this is not the world you really wish to live in, exchanging one tyrant for another, and realizing the world that men lusting for power can realize when inspired by the powers of Gods and Amazonians and what not, resolves to return to Themyscria and demands that this chapter be forgotten, the Amazonians shrouded in shadow until a time when women of wonder are needed to safeguard this Earth comes again. Wonder Woman comes home a hero, having returned the world to the place it should be. Basically, my biggest problem is that Wonder Woman is not fantastical enough to be a comic book movie, and disrespects the historical setting instead of taking advantage of it in order to be a comic book movie. We don't really have a good villain, nor a meaningful challenge to justify a superhero. It's more of a confident, semi-satisfying wet fart instead of a full dump of a proper superhero movie. Taintrunner fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 01:06
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Sir, this is a McDonalds drive thru
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Jun 21, 2017 01:24
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I think we just found the line between doing an interesting if unorthodox reading of a film and just writing fanfic.
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Jun 21, 2017 01:25
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BrianWilly posted:I think that's kind of different. She thought, at that point in time, that Ares had corrupted Steve, like he did with the Germans. So then when she learns that no one had been corrupted by Ares, she immediately understands that everyone is capable of what the Germans are capable of, regardless of nationality. teagone posted:I wish someone would name and shame the execs or whoever that were confused about the No Man's Land scene and wanted it cut out of the film/replaced with something dumb. I want to revel in the schadenfreude of the internet burning them down into ash because of how goddamn stupid they were for even suggesting to remove that iconic (imo) setpiece.
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Jun 21, 2017 01:29
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Speaking of Battlefield 1 I was reading that apparently some players are complaining that it isn't fun since it just seems to be a pointless slog in the mud with no real objectives or goals. 
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Jun 21, 2017 01:33
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I wonder if the studio might have seen an early version of the No Man's Land scene because that poo poo would not be nearly as impressive without the music or CGI.
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Jun 21, 2017 01:36
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Vegetable posted:I wonder if the studio might have seen an early version of the No Man's Land scene because that poo poo would not be nearly as impressive without the music or CGI. Oh, it's totally doing the heavy lifting that a lot of modern movies rely on to skate by. And to answer the poster above, comic book films are fan fiction, by definition.
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Jun 21, 2017 02:21
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Yeah but when people say the best way to review a movie is to make another movie they mean like with a camera or something
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Jun 21, 2017 02:27
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Mr. Apollo posted:Speaking of Battlefield 1 I was reading that apparently some players are complaining that it isn't fun since it just seems to be a pointless slog in the mud with no real objectives or goals. Battlefield 1 pretty accurately nails how lovely and awful it was to be a soldier in WW1, unless you were a pilot, in which case it was incredibly cool and badass and the best time ever.
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Jun 21, 2017 02:34
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RBA Starblade posted:Battlefield 1 pretty accurately nails how lovely and awful it was to be a soldier in WW1, unless you were a pilot, in which case it was incredibly cool and badass and the best time ever. Being a pilot seems like it was pretty awesome, but didn't they have a life expectency of like fourteen hours?
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Jun 21, 2017 02:48
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Detective No. 27 posted:Being a pilot seems like it was pretty awesome, but didn't they have a life expectency of like fourteen hours? Yeah but in BF1 you get to punch out other pilots, take their cooler planes, get away with cheating at cards, and steal zeppelins and kill other zeppelins with them. 
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Jun 21, 2017 02:55
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On the topic of WW1 the campfire scene where Diana makes the comment about "strange thunder" and Chief tells her it's German guns reminded of a story my grandparents told me. They grew up on the Eastern Front and left for North America after the war. They said that it sounded like a constant thunderstorm in the distance from the guns. They said they knew the war had ended when one day the thunder stopped and there was silence.
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Jun 21, 2017 03:42
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Mr. Apollo posted:On the topic of WW1 the campfire scene where Diana makes the comment about "strange thunder" and Chief tells her it's German guns reminded of a story my grandparents told me. They grew up on the Eastern Front and left for North America after the war. They said that it sounded like a constant thunderstorm in the distance from the guns. They said they knew the war had ended when one day the thunder stopped and there was silence. It was one of the many good components of Saving Private Ryan, that 'thunder' is in the background of the entire movie. Yes, I do know that that was a different war.
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Jun 21, 2017 03:46
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Something else I liked was that the sniper Charlie was depicted with PTSD and ended up not being able to snipe people in the heat of the moment...and then the film never "fixes" him. There's no magical moment where Diana or anyone else is like "You have to believe in yourself! You can do it!" and then the guy magically regains his leet skillz and saves the day by...doing the exact same thing that enforced his trauma in the first place. Instead, when Charlie mentions that he's just dead weight and of no use to anyone if he can't snipe people, Diana gently refutes that by saying they wouldn't have anyone to sing songs for them if he's gone, encouraging the mindset that he has more value than simply the ability to kill people for them. It's a very good decision.
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Jun 21, 2017 04:12
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Guy A. Person posted:Ughhhhhhhh Lol
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Jun 21, 2017 08:20
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BrianWilly posted:Something else I liked was that the sniper Charlie was depicted with PTSD and ended up not being able to snipe people in the heat of the moment...and then the film never "fixes" him. There's no magical moment where Diana or anyone else is like "You have to believe in yourself! You can do it!" and then the guy magically regains his leet skillz and saves the day by...doing the exact same thing that enforced his trauma in the first place. Well he didn't have a lot of other skills, I mean we know for a fact that Charlie don't surf.
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Jun 21, 2017 08:48
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Taintrunner posted:Film execs are too rich and isolated to care whatever random Twitter people think. In fact, they're in the same class of people that own and control social media platforms that exploit people's most negative emotions. A self-satisfactory illusion of power in a powerless age, which again, would have been another theme the film could have touched on considering the despair of World War 1, "young men die for a rich man's war," etc etc. The World Wars weren't like Vietnam. Tons of upper class young men were killed.
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Jun 21, 2017 09:05
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BrianWilly posted:Something else I liked was that the sniper Charlie was depicted with PTSD and ended up not being able to snipe people in the heat of the moment...and then the film never "fixes" him. There's no magical moment where Diana or anyone else is like "You have to believe in yourself! You can do it!" and then the guy magically regains his leet skillz and saves the day by...doing the exact same thing that enforced his trauma in the first place. edit - That was also one of the sad parts for me anyway. In BvS and the trailer for JL we see her as very stoic and you realize that over the years she seems to have lost her sunny disposition and it all started with the death of Steve. Mr. Apollo fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 10:37
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Charlz Guybon posted:The World Wars weren't like Vietnam. Tons of upper class young men were killed. That was a bit of stretch.WWI stands as what happens when expanding empires clash with each other and was voted by parliaments that only contained rich people, or who counted the votes of the aristocracy differently than the general plebes one of the nations was lead by the Tzar of all russia.Almost all of UK soldiers didn't have the right to vote for lack of means due to wealth requirements. Basically a bunch of wealthy dudes voted for their to go to cool and fun party in the fields of northern france, and maybe become a man by killing a couple germans and poo poo got out of loving hand.
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Jun 21, 2017 10:53
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hump day bitches! posted:That was a bit of stretch.WWI stands as what happens when expanding empires clash with each other and was voted by parliaments that only contained rich people, or who counted the votes of the aristocracy differently than the general plebes one of the nations was lead by the Tzar of all russia.Almost all of UK soldiers didn't have the right to vote for lack of means due to wealth requirements. There was mass conscription, the army was expanded on an enormous scale. There was nowhere near enough professionals to lead it. The lower level officers corp (lieutenants, captains), were almost all sons of upper class folks, lawyers, accountants, doctors, etc and they had a higher casualty rate than the rank and file.
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Jun 21, 2017 12:40
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Just saw this last night. I liked it. It owes a lot to the first Captain America, but I think Wonder Woman took more chances and was really brisk in pace. I'm surprised that it was over two hours since it didn't seem that long. There's so many opportunities for it to stick to cliches and it almost always took an unexpected path. I particularly liked how Diana is an outsider without being made dumb and dependent. The last fight kind of goes on for too long, but perhaps it's fine. It's refreshing to see a DC film that isn't completely frustrating. I was on the fence about this one since Green Lantern and Man of Steel are thoroughly frustrating movies and Beavis is one of the worst mainstream films I've seen in years.
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Jun 21, 2017 13:47
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Saw the movie with my wife and kids for the 2nd time. It's a really good movie. I don't know why anyone is taking any serious religious, or social, cues from a comic book movie though.
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Jun 21, 2017 15:24
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Mr. Apollo posted:it all started with the death of Steve. Are we allowed to talk about spoiler stuff now? I really, REALLY, hope he's actually dead. The story is so much better that way. HOWEVER....there's a really big/obvious parachute on the pilot he knocks out when he takes the controls of the plane. And he pauses, and looks away, after aiming his pistol at the bombs and it doesn't actually show him pulling the trigger. My greatest fear is that he grabbed the parachute and dropped a grenade as he jumped out. I guess there will be a sequel, probably many. I suppose her and Steve could have several years of adventure/love before he succumbs to old age/or something. But it wouldn't be as neat and tidy as him just being dead.
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Jun 21, 2017 15:33
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Wonder Woman should've fought on the German side to underline its point further. 
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Jun 21, 2017 15:46
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spacetoaster posted:Are we allowed to talk about spoiler stuff now? The only Good men are dead men.  poptart_fairy posted:Wonder Woman should've fought on the German side to underline its point further. Steve Trevor wouldnt pass as a German name, i dont think. MariusLecter fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 16:06
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spacetoaster posted:Are we allowed to talk about spoiler stuff now? Pine was originally signed for a single movie but he confirmed that he signed a multi movie deal. I don't think he escaped the explosion as it would have undermined the gravity of his actions and also the "breaking" of Diana was necessary for this story. If he was still alive then she wouldn't be the person we see in BvS and JL. Plus the official novelization I linked earlier makes it pretty clear that he died (it does a weird "psychic connection" thing between the two of them before he died and that's how she realizes what he was saying to her before he ran to the plane. I don't know the comics but someone said earlier in the thread that Artemis has reincarnated Steve before and he comes back as a different person each time but he always has the same face.
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Jun 21, 2017 16:12
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MariusLecter posted:Steve Trevor wouldnt pass as a German name, i dont think. She falls in love with his assumed spy alias, never truly knowing the real Steven, and her actions lead to the Nazis gaining power. More angst to fuel WW disappearing from the world.
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Jun 21, 2017 16:19
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I hope the sequel is just a remake of Allied except with more people being kicked out windows.
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Jun 21, 2017 16:31
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I just want Diana and Steve to be happy together. 
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Jun 21, 2017 16:34
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Mr. Apollo posted:I don't think he escaped the explosion as it would have undermined the gravity of his actions Yeah. Mr. Apollo posted:I just want Diana and Steve to be happy together. Are there any comic book people like this? I mean, in comics there are a ton of people who are either immortal, or very long lived. I'd imagine it'd be pretty comical for a 90 year old guy to be trotting around town with a literal 30 year old looking goddess on his arm. I guess Highlander had a couple of examples of a young looking immortal faithfully staying at his wife's side through her old age.
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Jun 21, 2017 16:54
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spacetoaster posted:Are there any comic book people like this? I mean, in comics there are a ton of people who are either immortal, or very long lived. I'd imagine it'd be pretty comical for a 90 year old guy to be trotting around town with a literal 30 year old looking goddess on his arm. I don't know about in the comics, but the Greek myth of Tithonus is fairly similar. He grew old, but his lover, the Goddess Eos, did not. Granted, the story is a little less charming than it might sound at first.
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Jun 21, 2017 17:08
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spacetoaster posted:Are there any comic book people like this? I mean, in comics there are a ton of people who are either immortal, or very long lived. I'd imagine it'd be pretty comical for a 90 year old guy to be trotting around town with a literal 30 year old looking goddess on his arm. I guess that ties into what the earlier person was saying about Steve being reincarnated multiple times by Artemis. Maybe she keeps bringing him back after he dies or something.
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Jun 21, 2017 17:10
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Schwarzwald posted:I don't know about in the comics, but the Greek myth of Tithonus is fairly similar. He grew old, but his lover, the Goddess Eos, did not. I googled that.  So granted immortal life, but not immortal youth. Eternity in a withered husk.
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Jun 21, 2017 17:19
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Mr. Apollo posted:Yeah I know, I know. I'd also like to think that CPT America would have stayed by what's her face til she died of old age (had he not been frozen and they got married). Actually, I know he would have. His religion/morality are central to his character.
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Jun 21, 2017 17:20
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spacetoaster posted:I'd also like to think that CPT America would have stayed by what's her face til she died of old age (had he not been frozen and they got married). I wonder if he would be subject to the normal aging process. Diana is a demigodess where as Steve is "just" an enhanced human. edit - One other thing I was wondering, in BvS and in he JL trailer Diana has a different shield. It has a plain front as opposed to the "star burst" pattern in WW. This is obviously deliberate but any ideas why? Would the new shield and sword still be "made by the gods"? Mr. Apollo fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 17:32
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Mr. Apollo posted:Oh yeah, he absolutely would. I mean the guy even gets mocked by members of his own team for his strict adherence to his moral compass. In the comics CPT America ages, just much slower. As to WW's shield and sword, I'd say the amount of demi-gods (aquaman?) and super alien tech would allow her to get some pretty sweet upgrades to the gear that was destroyed in this movie.
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Jun 21, 2017 18:01
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Is this not doing well overseas or what? Only two screenings this Saturday and both late in the evening.  Most slots are taken up with cars 3, the new transformers and... rough night, whatever that is. Even baywatch (why is this a thing) and boss baby has more screenings that day. Avalerion fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 19:12
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I missed this because I've been desensitized to the blue-orange movie poster aesthetic but it was pointed out to me that the orange on the Wonder Woman posters is Dr. Poison's gas.   
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Jun 21, 2017 19:43
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