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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
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steinrokkan posted:The thing that "stymied" Bernie's outreach was all the media parroting this same talking point of Bernie not connecting to the realities of being a minority in America despite the fact he was just as favorable among minority young voters as among white young voters. Okay, so I guess the strategy is for progressives to wait twenty years for their voters to grow up? Megaman's Jockstrap posted:His plan was the right-wing Heritage Foundation healthcare reform of 1993 with the tort reform provisions removed, which btw account for 2% - 3% of medical costs. Yeah, that's exactly my point. The most far left policy to pass in America in half a century is fundamentally conservative (if less so than the Heritage thing implies). And while most individual voters have particular beliefs that are more left than what the ACA represents, the fact is that no politician had yet successfully packaged a coherent progressive message. If you figure out how to do it, run for office and I'll donate to your campaign if my wife says it's okay. Personally, I don't think Democrats are the problem. The Republicans aren't the driving force for tax cuts and corporationism; Heritage, Club For Growth, etc. are. Who are the progressive thought leaders, providing a solid template for progressive ideology? Leftists have been satisfied to point to Science and say, "these studies support our ideas", but nobody is putting the pieces together. Where's the leftist AEI? Candidates are only the final piece of the puzzle. Edit: 
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Jun 21, 2017 22:42
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PerniciousKnid posted:And while most individual voters have particular beliefs that are more left than what the ACA represents, the fact is that no politician had yet successfully packaged a coherent progressive message. Ouch my braaaaaaaaaaaain
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Jun 21, 2017 22:43
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PerniciousKnid posted:Okay, so I guess the strategy is for progressives to wait twenty years for their voters to grow up? The strategy is the fallowing. 1. Purge party of sociopaths and ivyleagers. 2. End money from pacs. 3. Run on Medicare for all and breaking up your precious big banks. 4. Win and do as we promised. 5. Laugh as you join the gop.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:46
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:You don't win the demo primary on young voters, minority or not, you do it by winning older southern black voters. Bernie's campaign was doomed from the start because you just don't build the decades of connections the clinton's had overnight. bernie would've won if the DNC wasn't so prone to cheating their own voters. oh well. quote:Which makes sense because older people naturally are more risk-adverse (and for good reason). It's kinda like how you switch over to safer investments as you get older. they are also real prone to being tricked by scammers who steal all their money or tell them they're the most electable candidate in history
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Jun 21, 2017 22:47
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:It's utterly hillaryous to see a Bernie supporter post this, considering it basically says that the Bernie wing of the country is basically non-existent and that the social liberalism/economic conservatism that clinton presented is the way to go. Are you incapable of reading graphs?
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Jun 21, 2017 22:50
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I just want to point out that PerniciousKnid quoted me and said "you're ridiculous if you think Obama is a centrist after taxing the rich and subsidizing health care" and slid into "yes, that was my point, it's right wing legislation" without missing a beat.PerniciousKnid posted:Plus if you think the guy who taxed the rich to fund the most radical explanation of subsidized health care in fifty years is a centrist then your definition of left probably starts in the -0.5 column at best. PerniciousKnid posted:Yeah, that's exactly my point. The most far left policy to pass in America in half a century is fundamentally conservative There's no coherent line of argument here. "You wrongly think Obama is a centrist because he passed fundamentally conservative legislation" doesn't make any sense.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:52
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PerniciousKnid posted:Yeah, that's exactly my point. The most far left policy to pass in America in half a century is fundamentally conservative (if less so than the Heritage thing implies). And while most individual voters have particular beliefs that are more left than what the ACA represents, the fact is that no politician had yet successfully packaged a coherent progressive message. If you figure out how to do it, run for office and I'll donate to your campaign if my wife says it's okay. Buddy, sorry to say but you're a goddamn idiot. Everybody ITT knows that nobody in the US has done actual leftism for about half a century, this isn't news. The problem is that the only organization that could realistically get out and work to enact that coherent progressive message is the Democratic Party, and in the Democratic Party the establishment doesn't want that message and is more interested in keeping an iron grip on the party organs rather than cooperate with the left and work towards building an actual winning coalition. So this is basically why the Democrats are a big part of the problem and why the establishment has got to go.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:54
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Crowsbeak posted:The strategy is the fallowing. This is a lovely plan. Purging isn't a great way to reach a majority, maybe push a plan and focus on recruiting people to believe in it or at least go along with it. Also you left out a bunch of issues. And why would I join the GOP, when I'm the one interested in genuinely advancing progressivism while you choreograph circular firing squads? Do you want to impact politics, or bask in a smug sense of superiority? Because you can't do both. Do you want to win over people in the real world, with a variety of priorities and beliefs, or do you want to win Reddit? Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Ouch my braaaaaaaaaaaain Sorry, I guess I Caveman Lawyered through the Sanders presidency. Edit: Cerebral Bore posted:Buddy, sorry to say but you're a goddamn idiot. Everybody ITT knows that nobody in the US has done actual leftism for about half a century, this isn't news. The problem is that the only organization that could realistically get out and work to enact that coherent progressive message is the Democratic Party, and in the Democratic Party the establishment doesn't want that message and is more interested in keeping an iron grip on the party organs rather than cooperate with the left and work towards building an actual winning coalition. Then to revisit my previous point, what are the organizations advancing progressivism? If that work is being done, is it low quality or does it just need a signal boost? PerniciousKnid fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 22:56
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steinrokkan posted:And both candidates vastly outperformed in the youth vote, regardless of race. It was the older voters who were sufficiently convinced that Hillary was a shoo in and a reliable ally. but one increased turnout, thereby increasing the effect of the overperformance, while the other didn't
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Jun 21, 2017 22:57
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Cerebral Bore posted:The problem is that the only organization that could realistically get out and work to enact that coherent progressive message is the Democratic Party wrong
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Jun 21, 2017 22:59
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:but one increased turnout, thereby increasing the effect of the overperformance, while the other didn't Don't blame Bernie for Hillary's lovely polling. As for their respective primary performance, that has been addressed already, Corbyn won because of unforeseen consequences of Labour's internal voting, which is incomparable to the months long, inscrutable process of American primaries.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:59
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PerniciousKnid posted:And while most individual voters have particular beliefs that are more left than what the ACA represents, the fact is that no politician had yet successfully packaged a coherent progressive message. Are you loving kidding me? Barack OfuckingBama did this in both of his campaigns, and won because of it. He didn't exactly follow through, policy-wise, but he talked the talk. Acting like it's somehow impossible to sell voters on a progressive message shows such incredible ignorance on your part.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:00
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PerniciousKnid posted:This is a lovely plan. Purging isn't a great way to reach a majority, maybe push a plan and focus on recruiting people to believe in it or at least go along with it. Also you left out a bunch of issues. And why would I join the GOP, when I'm the one interested in genuinely advancing progressivism while you choreograph circular firing squads? Do you want to impact politics, or bask in a smug sense of superiority? Because you can't do both. Nah kicking out subhuman sociopaths like you means the non voters can trust us. I know you hate to hear that.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:01
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:wrong Didn't take you for a third party faithful, but whatever floats your boat, I guess? PerniciousKnid posted:This is a lovely plan. Purging isn't a great way to reach a majority, maybe push a plan and focus on recruiting people to believe in it or at least go along with it. Also you left out a bunch of issues. And why would I join the GOP, when I'm the one interested in genuinely advancing progressivism while you choreograph circular firing squads? Do you want to impact politics, or bask in a smug sense of superiority? Because you can't do both. 
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Jun 21, 2017 23:01
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PerniciousKnid appears to be an idiot
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Jun 21, 2017 23:02
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Majorian posted:Are you loving kidding me? It is not ignorance. Pk is likley in medical insurance and only doesn't vote gop because they are not a white male. Pk lies because pk could be financially hit a bit by Bernie or allies winning.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:03
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Essentially all of the Silicon Valley tech companies support the DNC establishment. This is not including Wall Street and the MIC (although they support them as well). In 2020, you can bet that these companies are going to deceptively manipulate trends online in the favor of their bought off candidate. They're probably going to have their own boiler-rooms full of sockpuppet accounts pushing their narratives, too. It's going to be a mess. Defeating the puppet (most likely Cory Booker) they put up in the primaries is going to be a tough challenge. Hillary was a stuttering, bumbling idiot on the same level as Mitt Romney in the area of public speaking, and yet, she still received the nomination largely due to dirty tricks and corruption within the DNC.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:04
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I just want to point out that PerniciousKnid quoted me and said "you're ridiculous if you think Obama is a centrist after taxing the rich and subsidizing health care" and slid into "yes, that was my point, it's right wing legislation" without missing a beat. Yeah I hosed that up. My point was just that Obama is relatively left for America but still not left in the sense you've been describing. American politicians aren't yet equipped to articulate progressivism, although Sanders was a marked improvement, among others. Crowsbeak posted:Nah kicking out subhuman sociopaths like you means the non voters can trust us. I know you hate to hear that. What the gently caress is your problem?
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Jun 21, 2017 23:07
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PerniciousKnid posted:Yeah I hosed that up. My point was just that Obama is relatively left for America but still not left in the sense you've been describing. American politicians aren't yet equipped to articulate progressivism, although Sanders was a marked improvement, among others. You lied through your teeth.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:08
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Majorian posted:Acting like it's somehow impossible to sell voters on a progressive message shows such incredible ignorance on your part. I never said that it's impossible. I said Democrats aren't good at it yet.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:10
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PerniciousKnid posted:I never said that it's impossible. I said Democrats aren't good at it yet. They were quite good at it for a while. Bill Clinton and Barack Obama didn't win only because they're amazing orators touched by God (although that obviously didn't hurt). They also ran on at least relatively economically populist platforms. Their charisma helped make that pitch believable, but their respective victories were due to more than just their raw talent. They understood something that the unreconstructed Clintonistas of the party can't even be bothered to try to grasp.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:13
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PerniciousKnid posted:I never said that it's impossible. I said Democrats aren't good at it yet. Who is the most popular politician in the country? What is his message?
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Jun 21, 2017 23:15
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PerniciousKnid posted:Then to revisit my previous point, what are the organizations advancing progressivism? If that work is being done, is it low quality or does it just need a signal boost? The problem is that people/organizations with a bunch of money tend to not be leftist (because they wouldn't benefit from leftism), and money is required to create the sort of think tanks and advertisements you're talking about. To be frank, your argument here is literally just "leftists aren't already in power, therefore leftists aren't already in power." Like, yeah, it's certainly true that leftists do not have much political influence. That is why it is important for individuals to support leftist politicians and speak with others about why they think leftism is good. What are you even proposing here? Are you saying that Democrats shouldn't move to the left because leftism isn't already popular? "Idea X isn't already popular/dominant" isn't exactly a strong argument against supporting helpful ideas. Regardless, it's undeniably true that leftism is becoming more prominent within the Democratic Party. It's not yet dominant, but it's a hell of a lot more popular than it was 10+ years ago. This is the ideal time to express leftist ideology and support what few leftist organizations and individuals exist. Majorian posted:Are you loving kidding me? Eh, this isn't really the case. Obama did a very good job of using language that seemed to align with progressive values without actually being specific about what progressive/leftist policy he'd support (I think he may have mentioned the public option, but otherwise not much). It's the difference between saying "Income inequality is unacceptable!" and saying "I'm going to greatly increase taxes on the rich." One is just an assertion of a general principle, while the other refers to a specific action.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:53
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Here's a really good piece on Medium, entitled, The “Panera strategy” didn’t work for Ossoff. It won’t work for Dems nationally. A few quotes:quote:This strategy might work with wealthy, suburban voters, but it’s likely to turn off the vast majority of the Democratic base who failed to turnout for Democrats in 2016 and who they’ll need to win in 2018 and beyond. In fact, the establishment’s desired strategy does not seem fundamentally different from their failed approach in 2016 when Senator Chuck Schumer (D-NY) infamously declared: quote:Among people of color, black turnout sharply declined. 2016 saw the lowest turnout since 2000 and a drop of 7.1 percent since 2012. 90 percent of African Americans thought Obama’s economic policies would be good for people like them, while only 62 percent believed the same for Hillary Clinton. Clinton’s share of the Latino vote also dropped 5 points from 2012, when 71 percent of Latinos voted to reelect President Obama. In summary, launch Brian Fallon into the sun please. Ytlaya posted:Eh, this isn't really the case. Obama did a very good job of using language that seemed to align with progressive values without actually being specific about what progressive/leftist policy he'd support (I think he may have mentioned the public option, but otherwise not much). It's the difference between saying "Income inequality is unacceptable!" and saying "I'm going to greatly increase taxes on the rich." One is just an assertion of a general principle, while the other refers to a specific action. Who says one has to be specific in crafting a progressive message? One can easily craft a progressive pitch that is really basic and filled with platitudes. Trump outflanked Clinton on populism while being incredibly vague and disingenuous. While we don't want Democratic candidates to lie to their voters or mislead them, my point is that the electorate is hungry for populist promises - and has been for a while. e: Also, give Obama's speech on the economy in October of '08 another look. Say what you will about how willing he was to follow through on it, but this is an economic justice pitch. Majorian fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 23:54
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Who is the most popular politician in the country? Bernie Sanders identified as a socialist and didn't get run out of the country, and I found that very exciting. But he also didn't owe his popularity to that as much as to his outsider presentation, according to most of the data I've seen. It's an optimistic step, but if you tell me that Sanders did well for the same reason as Donald Trump, I'm gonna temper my expectations. I still think a progressive in the White House is perfectly doable for 2020, but I think the message that gets us there hasn't been refined yet, or at least I haven't seen it in action.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:54
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PerniciousKnid posted:Bernie Sanders identified as a socialist and didn't get run out of the country, and I found that very exciting. But he also didn't owe his popularity to that as much as to his outsider presentation, according to most of the data I've seen. It's an optimistic step, but if you tell me that Sanders did well for the same reason as Donald Trump, I'm gonna temper my expectations. It seems to me that the lesson you should be taking from that is, "Don't run someone who comes off as just another politician."
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Jun 21, 2017 23:58
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The fact that it's named the "Panera Strategy" should have been a giant rear end warning sign.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:58
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PerniciousKnid posted:But he also didn't owe his popularity to that as much as to his outsider presentation, according to most of the data I've seen. I'd like to see that data, if you don't mind.
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Jun 22, 2017 00:02
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PerniciousKnid posted:Bernie Sanders identified as a socialist and didn't get run out of the country He very nearly took home the presidential nomination from a party he didn't belong to with zero national name recognition. I think you might be minimizing what happened a little bit.
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Jun 22, 2017 00:03
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Majorian posted:Who says one has to be specific in crafting a progressive message? One can easily craft a progressive pitch that is really basic and filled with platitudes. Trump outflanked Clinton on populism while being incredibly vague and disingenuous. While we don't want Democratic candidates to lie to their voters or mislead them, my point is that the electorate is hungry for populist promises - and has been for a while. The thing is, those ideas aren't inherently progressive unless they're backed up by some idea of the policy that would be used to achieve them. Even conservatives talk about fighting poverty, but that doesn't make them progressive. The things he said could sound good to people from across the political spectrum. I agree that using language like Obama did is useful for winning elections, but I think it would be even better if politicians explicitly mentioned actual progressive/leftist ideas instead of just vaguely alluding to goals like "fighting income inequality." edit: At the end of the day, most people, regardless of ideology, share the same general goals of making people physically and economically healthy and happy. What determines ideology is how one wants to achieve those goals. Democrats have formed an art out of expressing progressive-sounding ideas in vague terms that don't actually promise anything concrete. PerniciousKnid posted:Bernie Sanders identified as a socialist and didn't get run out of the country, and I found that very exciting. But he also didn't owe his popularity to that as much as to his outsider presentation, according to most of the data I've seen. It's an optimistic step, but if you tell me that Sanders did well for the same reason as Donald Trump, I'm gonna temper my expectations. It doesn't matter if most people actively support leftism; all that matters is that they're not actively against it and don't mind voting for someone who supports such ideas. It's also not clear what point you're even trying to make. Are you trying to argue that Democrats shouldn't move to the left? No one in this thread has the power to magically create leftist politicians and political organizations; the best most of us can do is donate to people/organizations that are good and express our own support for leftist/progressive ideas. The current lack of an organized left is not a reasonable argument against attempting to form such a movement. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 00:20
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PerniciousKnid posted:Not his job, get over it. No? The revolving door between government and private industry is a big problem. "Just get over it" is bad governance because it's an invitation for corruption, and worse politics because people who got screwed by white-collar criminals aren't going to "get over" politicians taking money from the crooks they protected while in office.
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Jun 22, 2017 00:22
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VitalSigns posted:No?  "Ahem, I think you'll find that Obama was not officially hired by a Wall Street bank, therefore..."
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Jun 22, 2017 00:25
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The left needs to drop this silly term 'progressive' in favor of the term 'socialism'. Centrists and corporate democrats are deceptively co-opting the term for themselves already. The term 'socialism' cuts through the bullshit, and no centrist will use it to refer to themselves for votes. Just a thought.
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Jun 22, 2017 00:26
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RedSpider posted:The left needs to drop this silly term 'progressive' in favor of the term 'socialism'. Centrists and corporate democrats are deceptively co-opting the term for themselves already. The term 'socialism' cuts through the bullshit, and no centrist will use it to refer to themselves for votes. Yeah, the problem with the term "progressive" is that it is used to refer to a variety of different ideas. When someone says they're progressive it's not clear if they're referring to being left-wing economically or being socially liberal (or both).
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Jun 22, 2017 00:30
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RedSpider posted:The left needs to drop this silly term 'progressive' in favor of the term 'socialism'. Centrists and corporate democrats are deceptively co-opting the term for themselves already. The term 'socialism' cuts through the bullshit, and no centrist will use it to refer to themselves for votes. I mean, I think that would be great but not even Corbyn is really there yet and we have Diet Corbyn at best.
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Jun 22, 2017 00:31
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:I mean, I think that would be great but not even Corbyn is really there yet and we have Diet Corbyn at best. I'm not sure an imperial power is wholly ready for anywhere near full-strength Corbyn, but one can always dream.
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Jun 22, 2017 00:33
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RedSpider posted:The left needs to drop this silly term 'progressive' in favor of the term 'socialism'. Centrists and corporate democrats are deceptively co-opting the term for themselves already. The term 'socialism' cuts through the bullshit, and no centrist will use it to refer to themselves for votes.  But you're right for the US
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Jun 22, 2017 00:34
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tekz posted:But you're right for the US Joke's on you, Macron is literally the long term end result of the PS neolibs desperately trying to do exactly that.
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Jun 22, 2017 00:35
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Agnosticnixie posted:I'm not sure an imperial power is wholly ready for anywhere near full-strength Corbyn, but one can always dream. Who is closest to America's version of the Absolute Boy?
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Jun 22, 2017 00:45
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Brony Car posted:Who is closest to America's version of the Absolute Boy?
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