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Zandar posted:Because edits are easily missed: I suppose it theoretically works? I think my biggest problem with Shannon=Kanon is that it does literally nothing for the mystery but make it harder for the culprit. Something that's hard for two people to accomplish doesn't become easier, or avoid any more red, or really accomplish anything at all if they're actually one person. Then you factor in how Natsuhi and Krauss theoretically don't notice that there's a physical body missing for three years, and it gets even worse. Not to mention how every time they're shown in the same area, everyone else must be either an accomplice or blackmailed. I can see a small point for the metaphorical side of things, but for the mystery it's just... It's useless, it's all useless.
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Jun 21, 2017 19:08
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:I'm just exploding with mackerel. This is the aji wo kutta of my discontent. I'm sorry for your discontent, but I have to say that I love this post. 
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Jun 21, 2017 19:08
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This is very probably a coincidence, but on the off-chance Ryukushi is a Stephen King fan- They do not kill with their gun, for they who kill with their gun have forgotten the face of their mother. They kill with their hearts. 
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Jun 21, 2017 20:17
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16 + 3 = 19. This age thing is reminding me of Silent Hill 3. 16 years old Shannon + 3 years of Kanon's existence = 19 year old Beatrice
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Jun 21, 2017 20:28
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EagerSleeper posted:I'm sorry for your discontent, but I have to say that I love this post. Shime saba. The following post has a lot of dead fish! Who murdered them? Virgilia, Witch of Saba.  Get you a mackerel, some non iodized salt, a bottle of rice vinegar, and four square inches of kombu seaweed.  http://i.imgur.com/YoKLbeq.jpgIf you're working with a whole fish instead of filets, you'll need to fishmangle it yourself. I'm just going to give rough outlines; there are videos that can show you how to do this really nicely. Hack off the head at the point behind the first pair of side fins. Your fish is probably already gutted like ours here, but your grocery fishmangler may have left the blood vein in like this. Starting from the tail end of the cavity, insert the tip of a sharp knife and drag it along the spine until this whole bloody vein is open. (Then stuff with Halloween candy!) Rinse the gore clean.  Slice the flesh from the bone, running your knife along the spine. You can start from either end. Slow and steady. Then once a filet is freed, trim away the small rib structures. For now, you'll leave in the pin bones and the skin.  In a casserole or other relatively deep container big enough to let your filets lie flat, sprinkle some salt, then put in the filets and generously coat with salt. Go nuts. I like black diamond kosher salt, but any salt that's not been iodized and supplemented to reduce caking will serve. (Those additives add a metallic flavor which will be quite pronounced in our end product.)  Let rest for around seven hours in the fridge, covered. Then rinse the salt off and pat the filets dry. Return the salted filets to the cleaned container. Pour in vinegar until the filets are just covered. Add kombu. Cover and return to the fridge for another half hour at least. You can leave it longer; the length of the pickle really depends on the individual fish and how thoroughly pickled you want the mackerel. A longer pickle makes softer flesh, so just be aware of that.  After you remove the filets from the vinegar, pat them dry again. At this point you can peel the fish skin right off. Then use fish tweezers or some pliers to pull the pin bones out from the inner side of the filet. You can find the bones by running your fingertips along the center of the inner side of the filet.  A lightly pickled example! Look at that grandmotherly plate; Virgilia is surely the culprit in this ghastly slaying.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:05
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 Thanks, pool, now I know and knowing is half the dinner.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:25
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tiistai posted:
 is my alternative theory of the murder that doesn't involve hewing to distasteful tropes. 
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Jun 21, 2017 21:36
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Everything related to Kumasaba made my day.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:48
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Cyouni posted:I suppose it theoretically works? Did you look at the answers in the back of the book or something? How do you know it doesn't solve anything? e: also, how often do they even show up together? The only scene I can think of is the episode 5 parlor scene where presumably everyone actually is an accomplice in order to have pranked Erika with fake bodies. Lisonfire fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 22:27
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Lisonfire posted:Did you look at the answers in the back of the book or something? How do you know it doesn't solve anything? There are a few other times during episode 5 where they're both in the parlour together with everyone else alive, including Erika. Bear in mind that it's not just "pretending that people are dead" that they have to be accomplice to, it's "pretending that Shannon and Kanon aren't the same person". So during episode 3, for example, no one alive can know that Shannon and Kanon are the same person without also being an accomplice. Then let's hear what you think one person playing two parts can accomplish that two people can't separately. When both sets of red apply to a single body, it immediately becomes a lot more restrictive. You also lose any capacity for independent action, ie. Kanon and Shannon cannot be doing two things at the same time. For example, let's take episode 1's first twilight. For Kanon=Shannon to be true, there cannot be a body there, which means Hideyoshi must be an accomplice or a complete moron thinking Kinzo in a maid outfit looks like Shannon. (For my sanity, please do not provide art of this.) Without Kanon=Shannon being true, it's a lot simpler - Shannon can just be laying there with red paint on her head. If you argue that 'Kanon' and 'Shannon' refer to outfits, for example, then again you lose capacity for action because the outfit isn't doing anything by itself, and 'Kanon' can't be used by someone else due to No one else can go by Kanon's name! A different person can't claim that as their name!. And so on and so forth. To sum it up, any trick that can be performed by a hybrid Shannon=Kanon can be performed by them being separate people. This does exclude one possibility - that where a specific number of bodies is specified. For example, all the red that refers to a specific number of people on Rokkenjima now allows for one more person, but that's also bound by Knox's 1st: It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story and to some degree Knox's 10th: It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves without any clues.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:57
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Lisonfire posted:e: also, how often do they even show up together? The only scene I can think of is the episode 5 parlor scene where presumably everyone actually is an accomplice in order to have pranked Erika with fake bodies. I'm reasonably sure the prank in episode 5 is on Natsushi. Erika hadn't yet reach 'intellectually raping a 9 year old' levels of horrible at the time of the 'murders'. The plan was likely set up these fake murders, have Natsushi look guilty as hell for the murders she thinks is real, make it so the only way she can prove her innocence is to admit that Kinzo is dead. Only someone went and murdered Hideyoshi for real and Erika took the prank way too far.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:20
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Bliss Authority posted:This is very probably a coincidence, but on the off-chance Ryukushi is a Stephen King fan- Honestly, I kind of like to think of Ryukishi as being Stephen King-esque. Higurashi definitely felt like it had a Stephen King flavor to me, the sort of classic small town with hidden secrets and like a hundred twists and turns along the way. Umineko has that feel too, but it's more along the lines of his more meta stuff, like the Dark Tower. Which makes all the 19s fairly appropriate.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:37
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ZiegeDame posted:I'm reasonably sure the prank in episode 5 is on Natsushi. Erika hadn't yet reach 'intellectually raping a 9 year old' levels of horrible at the time of the 'murders'. The plan was likely set up these fake murders, have Natsushi look guilty as hell for the murders she thinks is real, make it so the only way she can prove her innocence is to admit that Kinzo is dead. Only someone went and murdered Hideyoshi for real and Erika took the prank way too far. Actually, just to get some discussion about this for the hell of it, if the murders were set up to be fake, why was Hideyoshi's death real?
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Jun 22, 2017 00:07
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tiistai posted:Actually, just to get some discussion about this for the hell of it, if the murders were set up to be fake, why was Hideyoshi's death real? Because he's a self aggrandizing bore who doesn't know when to end a tall tale about his early career. Clearly Kumasaba couldn't take another meeting with him revising his personal mythology, so she killed him with a katuna. (nb. I've already forgotten the murder method.)
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Jun 22, 2017 00:14
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:Because he's a self aggrandizing bore who doesn't know when to end a tall tale about his early career. So it was a murderous katuna? Perhaps a die-katuna? I didn't know this was the Uranium LP.
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Jun 22, 2017 00:48
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tiistai posted:Actually, just to get some discussion about this for the hell of it, if the murders were set up to be fake, why was Hideyoshi's death real? For the same reason that Krauss and everyone else were killed after they moved from where they were "discovered". I'd like to say Beatrice, but her murder plan might have been put on hold once Battler solved the epitaph. I don't think Hideyoshi was the specific target, because probably the plan was for him to play dead in the room Natsushi was told to hide in, to further turn up the heat on her, so the killer had no choice but to go for the person pre-arranged to be alone. So someone who wanted Natsushi blamed for actual murder. They probably couldn't trick the actual police, so whatever benefit they'd get would be the distrust among the people on the island. Someone who wanted the gold for themself then? Gohda maybe? That's too ridiculous for even me to take seriously, but who knows what sort of messed-up deck Lambda was playing with.
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Jun 22, 2017 00:50
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KataraniSword posted:So it was a murderous katuna? Perhaps a die-katuna? I didn't know this was the Uranium LP.  Alternatively, Hideyoshi is a Yorha unit and achieved Ending K.
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Jun 22, 2017 01:27
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Cyouni posted:thinking Kinzo in a maid outfit looks like Shannon. (For my sanity, please do not provide art of this.) 
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Jun 22, 2017 01:42
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ZiegeDame posted:I don't think Hideyoshi was the specific target, because probably the plan was for him to play dead in the room Natsushi was told to hide in, to further turn up the heat on her, so the killer had no choice but to go for the person pre-arranged to be alone. So someone who wanted Natsushi blamed for actual murder. So Hideyoshi entering that room and pretending to be killed was part of the plan to frame and corner Natsuhi all along, right? But when they unexpectedly found him actually dead, they assumed Natsuhi killed him yet they didn't confront her despite knowing she was hiding inside the room. I thought you guys were fans of Occam's razor! Then again, if Hideyoshi was actually alive, it would mean he spent the rest of the game wrapped up in a sheet burrito, lying unmoving on the parlor floor and listening to the trial.
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Jun 22, 2017 02:29
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tiistai posted:Then again, if Hideyoshi was actually alive, it would mean he spent the rest of the game wrapped up in a sheet burrito, lying unmoving on the parlor floor and listening to the trial. This is by far the best argument in favor of that theory.
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Jun 22, 2017 02:39
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To be totally honest guys I have no idea what even the point of Hideyoshi's murder in episode 5 was since the game ends right after and it never factors in at all in the trial.
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Jun 22, 2017 02:44
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Lisonfire posted:The person holding the keys is two servants and therefore holds two keys. They literally have two jobs and both jobs are servants. This follows the red just fine. No, because they can only be one servant at at time. They get to pick, but we never see ShKanon walking around in a beret and dress at once. If it's Shannon right now, she can hold a key, but she can't be holding two at once without violating the red. So the 5th key would be held by nobody. But we still need five people to hold the five keys. And I don't think the keys are even the hardest part, the murder rooms are. I realized there's some more relevant red for them: "The six died instantly! By instant death, I mean that as soon as they were attacked, they became incapable of action." "Well, it might still have taken them several seconds or minutes to die in the complete sense of the word. But regardless, it was completely impossible for them to take any actions of their own will. In that sense, I can confirm that they suffered instant deaths!" To be clear, I didn't hunt through the story to find a case where S=K causes problems; this one just occurred to me off the top of my head. For instance, Shannon dies well before Kanon in Ep 1, so there may be problems there. I'm sure you can find some way around all these objections. What disappoints me, if S=K, is what it shows about the author's priorities: the locked room murders aren't as important as being able to shout "Plot Twist!" I understand some readers won't care, but for me it hurts the story quite a lot.
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Jun 22, 2017 03:10
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ProfessorProf posted:This is by far the best argument in favor of that theory. He could also be an android. I'm just sayin'. And that omits all you nasty witches from the solution!
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Jun 22, 2017 03:12
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:Shime saba.  This was a sacrificingly delicious/excellent post. Kumasawa would be proud. (Question. Do you still have to cook pickled fish or is it like ceviche and you can eat as is?)tiistai posted:
Who did this? Who created such beauty??? Kinzo has truly reached the golden land. tiistai posted:Then again, if Hideyoshi was actually alive, it would mean he spent the rest of the game wrapped up in a sheet burrito, lying unmoving on the parlor floor and listening to the trial. This is me irl, pls don't kinkshame.
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Jun 22, 2017 03:25
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BurningStone posted:"The six died instantly! By instant death, I mean that as soon as they were attacked, they became incapable of action." Eh, that one can be beaten through the same answer we were using to theorise Shannon or Kanon in the first place, but I understand the sentiment.
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Jun 22, 2017 03:27
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oath2order posted:To be totally honest guys I have no idea what even the point of Hideyoshi's murder in episode 5 was since the game ends right after and it never factors in at all in the trial. His murder was also fake. Notice how Battler stops Erika before she can open the closet where Natsuhi is hiding? And Erika never directly investigates the corpse? The whole thing is a ploy to get Natsuhi to confess that Kinzo is dead. I expect Hideyoshi was extracted from the burrito and slipped away before the "trial", which is why his body was covered in a blanket as well as sheets (to later hide that it was empty). Sayo just cleaned up with a stabbing or similar at the earliest opportunity once he was off hiding from everyone else. There isn't any real necessity for them to move as a pack because nobody but her knows that actual murder is being done.
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Jun 22, 2017 03:34
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EagerSleeper posted:
Kumasaba really is amazing isn't she? Shime saba can be eaten as is. You can also sear it (the preferred method seems to be a blowtorch as for creme brulee, but a grill or broiler can put a nice sear on the skin side). I'll have to get another mackerel so I can show you Osaka style pressed sushi with shime saba. After all, we still have to see what's up with Sayo and Yoshiya.
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Jun 22, 2017 03:38
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To expand on what I said a bit, the key to understanding episode 5 is that every single loving person is in on it except Natsuhi, Krauss, and Erika. I kept having problems during it because I wanted the conspiracy to be smaller than that. This is why Occam's Razor isn't always your ally. This solution is also why the detective's authority functions. Of course there is no magic power of detectiveness that makes people do what Erika says. They play along with her because it suits their own con. They're secretly laughing at her ridiculous behavior the whole time.
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Jun 22, 2017 03:54
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oath2order posted:To be totally honest guys I have no idea what even the point of Hideyoshi's murder in episode 5 was since the game ends right after and it never factors in at all in the trial. Eva's into some weird role playing.
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Jun 22, 2017 03:58
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idonotlikepeas posted:His murder was also fake. Notice how Battler stops Erika before she can open the closet where Natsuhi is hiding? And Erika never directly investigates the corpse? The whole thing is a ploy to get Natsuhi to confess that Kinzo is dead. I expect Hideyoshi was extracted from the burrito and slipped away before the "trial", which is why his body was covered in a blanket as well as sheets (to later hide that it was empty). Sayo just cleaned up with a stabbing or similar at the earliest opportunity once he was off hiding from everyone else. There isn't any real necessity for them to move as a pack because nobody but her knows that actual murder is being done. My only problem with this is Eva was for real beating the living poo poo out of Natsushi, and nobody was stopping her. I think that's going a bit far just for a prank, even for this family.
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Jun 22, 2017 04:13
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:Kumasaba really is amazing isn't she? Thank you for the answer! Osaka style sushi sounds great.  BurningStone posted:I'm sure you can find some way around all these objections. What disappoints me, if S=K, is what it shows about the author's priorities: the locked room murders aren't as important as being able to shout "Plot Twist!" I understand some readers won't care, but for me it hurts the story quite a lot. I don't know if this story will fall off the rails, but so far it seems consistent with it's themes. If it helps, I don't think the Shannon/Kanon thing is supposed to be spiting the player, but perhaps a look into the emotional world that the narrator lives in. It was said that Beatrice is not necessarily 1000 years old, but that the time she's been created and growing into a witch felt like a 1000. The narrative is not exactly telling the truth, but in effect being true at the same time. There are also examples of Maria, Rosa, Kyrie, and Kinzo creating fictions to themselves* to cope with horrible situations/abuse. I believe that we are looking into this internal fiction to find out who Beatrice is, and to show that we really understand what hell they went through. The ShKannon bit is not purely for a cheap twist, I'm sure, but in case it is, feel free to quote me for later. *Maria believes in magic to feel loved. Rosa believes that maybe her old love might come back. Kyrie gave up everything to be with someone who turned out not to love her as much as she loved him. Kinzo studies magic to bring back his loved one. EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 04:17
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Qrr posted:True, but you are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son is also stated. So while adoption would work with the red texts I cited it would not work with that one. "Son" is ambiguous, it could be referring to either a biological or emotional relationship. So it could simply mean that he is not, biologically, her son; alternatively, not every adopter considers the adoptee their child. I don't really have much of an opinion of what's going on with Battler's birth, I just object to the strong assertions: Qrr posted:We know for a fact that there are two battlers. We do not know for a fact, as there are other possibilities; and it is not correct that the truth value of those statements have any bearing on whether there must be two Battlers. They are, in theory, capable of implying two Battlers, but there's nothing there to grant exclusivity.
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Jun 22, 2017 04:25
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Zack Ater posted:"Son" is ambiguous, it could be referring to either a biological or emotional relationship. So it could simply mean that he is not, biologically, her son; alternatively, not every adopter considers the adoptee their child. If you're going to treat son as emotional and mother as biological in two red texts in the same chapter then I guess so, but that's quite a stretch. If we're going to do that, then maybe some of the people who were declared dead were actually dead via emotion - "you're dead to me". That way lies a dark place.
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Jun 22, 2017 04:37
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BurningStone posted:I'm sure you can find some way around all these objections. What disappoints me, if S=K, is what it shows about the author's priorities: the locked room murders aren't as important as being able to shout "Plot Twist!" I understand some readers won't care, but for me it hurts the story quite a lot. There are better and worse arguments for and against SnK that I've read in this thread, but this is by far the worse on any side. "It's not true because if it's true the writer must be lovely" is just a cop out, plain and simple. I will personally, as a witch, guarantee that whatever flaws Umineko has, and it does have some interesting ones, lovely, pointless plot twists is not one of them.
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Jun 22, 2017 04:46
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Anyone who thinks that Umineko's reveals, whatever they may be, are out of nowhere should review the earlier episodes when all's said and done.
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Jun 22, 2017 04:53
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:He could also be an android. I'm just sayin'. And that omits all you nasty witches from the solution! On a different note from the above: Pool is Closed, do you want a new avatar? Witchchat has one ready and waiting to give you.
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Jun 22, 2017 04:55
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BurningStone posted:No, because they can only be one servant at at time. They get to pick, but we never see ShKanon walking around in a beret and dress at once. If it's Shannon right now, she can hold a key, but she can't be holding two at once without violating the red. So the 5th key would be held by nobody. But we still need five people to hold the five keys. And I don't think the keys are even the hardest part, the murder rooms are. I realized there's some more relevant red for them: quote:"The six died instantly! By instant death, I mean that as soon as they were attacked, they became incapable of action." How do you even kill an identity slowly. Presumably Sayo just says "ok kanon doesn't exist anymore and i'll never be kanon again" and Kanon is instantly "killed". Its not even really a "plot twist"... I don't know how you'd come to this conclusion when our own thread came up with it in uh..... mid episode 4? late episode 3? Someone was clearly able to come to that conclusion independently.
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Jun 22, 2017 04:56
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Zack Ater posted:"Son" is ambiguous, it could be referring to either a biological or emotional relationship. So it could simply mean that he is not, biologically, her son; alternatively, not every adopter considers the adoptee their child. Battler does in fact say It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born. So Asumu did, for a fact, give birth to someone named Battler who is not the Battler we know and love.
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Jun 22, 2017 05:05
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oath2order posted:There are better and worse arguments for and against SnK that I've read in this thread, but this is by far the worse on any side. "It's not true because if it's true the writer must be lovely" is just a cop out, plain and simple. You misunderstand my objection. I never said it was lovely or pointless. I said it damaged the mystery. That's allowed; this story is a lot of things (arguably too many things) and there's no law that the part I care about has to get priority. You could say the story is really about abuse, and S=K (and =B) is great for that. Certainly the most powerful scenes are about abuse. I personally don't find them fun to read, even if I admire the skill required to create them. I'm following this, and even reread episodes, for the mystery. If S=K (and the tone of the witches' discussion here pretty much confirms it) then I suspect the author has fallen into a mystery trap that isn't on Knox's list: characters should not act unnaturally just for the sake of making the mystery mysterious. I'm particularly thinking of the people who have been living with ShKanon for an extended period now, not just a weekend. When S=K was first proposed, I tried rereading, to see, if that were the case, would everybody's behavior make sense. And I just can't see the characters acting as they'd have to. Remember this story is set thirty years ago, with characters from upper class and even aristocratic backgrounds. And they're all supposed to be kind and open minded about gender switching? This pack of bastards? Really? Aren't they supposed to be the ones who dished out the abuse in the first place? If the Ushiromiyas are so nice, how'd we get multiple personalities to start with?
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Jun 22, 2017 06:55
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I remember some theories have come up about how Cliff-Baby might be Battler and Cliff-Baby might be Kyrie's 'stillborn' child. The first is possible (though I favour the theory that Kyrie's 'stillborn' child is Battler, as I think it'd fit better with the evidence), the second unlikely. Jessica was born before Battler, and Cliff-Baby happened before Natsuhi got news of her pregnancy. So it's likely that Cliff-Baby also happened before Kyrie got news of her own pregnancy, thus making Cliff-Baby her child unlikely.EagerSleeper posted:Thank you for the answer! Osaka style sushi sounds great. The problem with that is it already came up in chapter 2 about Kanon creating another self, which suggests Beatrice in there - "Maybe the Kanon-kun you are when you act as a servant calls himself furniture and strictly limits his own will. ...But when you aren't Kanon-kun, I think it's alright to live much, much more freely." So really I'm not sure what the point of adding Shannon to that is, especially since the one receiving this advice, Kanon, would already be a mental creation of Shannon for the sake of living more freely. Well, 'more freely' in that it's someone who'd actually respond to the poo poo Shannon takes instead of just accepting it. Edit: Thinking on it again, he's not even good for that. If he's supposed to be an escape for Shannon, then he does a piss-poor job of it, given he is even more sunk into the whole furniture thing than she is. Qrr posted:If you're going to treat son as emotional and mother as biological in two red texts in the same chapter then I guess so, but that's quite a stretch. If we're going to do that, then maybe some of the people who were declared dead were actually dead via emotion - "you're dead to me". That way lies a dark place. Not sure why you're thinking 'son' is emotional, as the way it's used is clearly biological. You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son. As in, "you were not born from Ushiromiya Asumu". Cyouni fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 06:59
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