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KoRMaK posted:I liked nikki but emmit didn't mean to kill his dumb brother. The guy pulled the glass frame into his own face. Emmity shoulda told her that. Nikki was cool but I'm pretty sure the Ray Wise message was meant for Varga, she targeted the wrong guy and died doing it
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Jun 22, 2017 17:07
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Agreed Emmitt got hosed real bad in this season. He's a pretty tragic character.
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Jun 22, 2017 17:08
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Emmitt still let his brother bleed to death on the floor without even attempting to lend a hand or call for help or anything.
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Jun 22, 2017 17:19
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Emmit isn't perfect but he still didn't deserve the ending he got, or to be hosed over so badly by Varga.
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Jun 22, 2017 17:24
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R. Mute posted:The reason why Nikki and Mr. Wrench didn't kill Varga was made clear in an earlier episode - Nikki didn't want to kill him, she wanted to hurt him. Specifically, she wanted to hurt him by taking what he had and by disproving his theory on life. She was convinced sending those tapes to the IRS would be enough - depending on how you interpret the end, it was. If he'd come out of that lift, it wouldn't have ended with a bullet. Just the message that he lost. My first thought on the ending was contrived ambiguity, much as the spinning top from Inception, but Fargo is usually much more deliberate, much more about clues and connections that reward the curious than that. You put into words with what I was struggling to lock down - it's two competing world views. Varga's only worked so far, under conditions he could anticipate and control. With weak and predictable people that he could set up and manipulate, he was the master. But with chaos and Nikki, he wasn't. He could be out-maneuvered. The door opening or not was not the point - that he was ultimately wrong and would eventually caught out by it was the greater message, but he was incapable of seeing it. The ambiguity makes you think about it, more so than simply telling you the answer directly. That all said, Emmit getting offed five years down the road by a guy who didn't have a stake in the discussion wasn't very satisfying. Emmit was always weak, and took the easy route, but he wasn't ever trying to hurt anyone. Ray and Nikki's scheming got an innocent murdered, then they murdered the murderer to cover it up, then indulged in blackmail and character assassination...that Nikki met her demise after stymying Varga seemed appropriate. That Ray was effectively killed by that which he coveted was poetic. That the McGuffin was left along the road, irrelevant and no longer an object of desire, was satisfying. All the mythic elements of Russian mass murder, ineffectual robots, heavenly messages, and Peter and the Wolf were oddly disjointed when considered individually, but unifying thematically. I'm not quite as definitively sure about how I feel about this season in comparison to the previous two, but I do know I was entertained and looked forward to every episode. But Ray Wise is always gold.
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Jun 22, 2017 18:20
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Escobarbarian posted:Emmit isn't perfect but he still didn't deserve the ending he got, or to be hosed over so badly by Varga. He's the embodiment of American idealism when confronted with the fact our nation's wealth is built off the exploitation of third world poor people. Everything's okay because he didn't pull the trigger/have to look at the dead bodies. Also, we need a gif of Nikki Swango swinging around the shotty. ruddiger fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 18:24
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Was it ever explained what Nikki saw in the picture?
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Jun 22, 2017 19:02
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I liked Fargo season 3 and I feel like it's a better "American Gods" than American Gods. Also, Varga wasn't personified evil, Yuri was. I think Varga is supposed to represent Baal somehow. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal) It also explains the cat? I don't know man.
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Jun 22, 2017 19:27
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Kataphract posted:That all said, Emmit getting offed five years down the road by a guy who didn't have a stake in the discussion wasn't very satisfying. Emmit was always weak, and took the easy route, but he wasn't ever trying to hurt anyone. Ray and Nikki's scheming got an innocent murdered, then they murdered the murderer to cover it up, then indulged in blackmail and character assassination...that Nikki met her demise after stymying Varga seemed appropriate. That Ray was effectively killed by that which he coveted was poetic. That the McGuffin was left along the road, irrelevant and no longer an object of desire, was satisfying. All the mythic elements of Russian mass murder, ineffectual robots, heavenly messages, and Peter and the Wolf were Varga was wrong to see an order in the world that wasn't there, but the same thing applies to us. There are no comeuppances, no justice, no neat plotlines. Not in real life. There's no arc where the rich and the powerful always win, like Varga thinks, but at the same time the good guy doesn't necessarily win in the end either. It's something that comes up in the Coen's filmography - obviously in Fargo, but I feel it's present in a lot of their work. Even in the Big Lebowski: 'Sometimes you eat the b’ar — much obliged — sometimes the b’ar, why, he eats you.' I think it's a problem that a lot of writers struggle with: real life is essentially a chaotic cluster of events, where any connections or lines or lessons are projected by us. So if you're trying to depict that, depict real life, how do you do that and make it real? Here's two quotes from Charlie Kaufman's Adaptation on the matter: "I don't want to cram in sex or guns or car chases or characters learning profound life lessons or growing or coming to like each other or overcome obstacles to succeed in the end. The book isn't like that, and life isn't like that, it just isn't." "I'd wanna let the movie exist, rather than be artificially plot-driven." And I feel like it's a central point in Fargo. There's a reason why the movie and every episode starts with "This is a true story. The events depicted in this film took place in Minnesota in [date]. At the request of the survivors, the names have been changed. Out of respect for the dead, the rest has been told exactly as it occurred." Kaufman has his fictional self resolve the dilemma by giving in to his fictional twin and making the story heavily plot-driven, down to sex, guns, car chases, characters learning profound life lessons, everything he mentions in the earlier quote. The Coens, meanwhile, while they still insert enough plot to keep the film going, are closer to depicting a series of events and letting the audience look for meaning and find connections themselves. In that sense, they're closer to just letting the movie exist and depicting real life. Films like No Country for Old Men, Inside Llewyn Davis and Burn After Reading are also good examples of this. So it makes sense for the showrunners to make it integral to the series as well. e: I feel like I should also mention Barton Fink, but it's been too long since I've watched it to tie it in. But still. R. Mute fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 19:32
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Wrench must be a huge idiot if it took him five years to track down Emmit
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Jun 22, 2017 19:48
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vargas senseless consumption got dozens of people murdered seems straightforward to me lol
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Jun 22, 2017 20:12
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Escobarbarian posted:Wrench must be a huge idiot if it took him five years to track down Emmit He had a briefcase full of 'gently caress you' money and was wanted for ?5? murders in that storage facility, plus Emmit was dealing with a bunch of stuff, I'd probably peace out for a while too.
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Jun 22, 2017 21:04
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Noah Hawley is God.
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Jun 22, 2017 22:27
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GobiasIndustries posted:He had a briefcase full of 'gently caress you' money and was wanted for ?5? murders in that storage facility, plus Emmit was dealing with a bunch of stuff, I'd probably peace out for a while too. Yeah, they had the printout from the surveillance camera of him, Nikki and Varga so he couldn't stick around (he's also a fugitive in the first place, the US Marshalls were supposed to be looking for him and Nikki).
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Jun 22, 2017 23:01
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The more I think about Wrench killing Emmit the less I like it. The waiting 5 years I can handwave away without too much fanfare, though it is silly. But why at that moment? When he's in a house full of people in the daytime? What if someone else went and got the salad? It's anti-climatic in a way that was totally appropriate with the rest of the ending but it feels really illogical.
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Jun 22, 2017 23:17
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Emmit being killed was loving catharsis and the only hint in that finale that anarchy can still prevail over preying, institutionalised capitalism and the power of wealth. It's a message of hope.
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Jun 22, 2017 23:32
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Nate RFB posted:What if someone else went and got the salad? He probably would have waited for a different time that Emmit would be alone, if I had to guess. I'm no hit man though, so ymmv.
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Jun 22, 2017 23:33
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That was loving brilliant from start to finish. Wish the front half season had been even close to how great that ending was, especially the final scene. Okay then.
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Jun 22, 2017 23:33
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R. Mute posted:I think Emmit's death was actually important and very much in the line with Nikki and Ray's - in that it wasn't some sort of poetic justice or divine retribution. If any of the deaths were appropriate or poetic, that was merely coincidental. It fit into the narrative of the show and of "real life" but they only have meaning because we want to give them meaning. We're talking about three totally senseless and in essence meaningless deaths - a man accidentally catches a piece of glass in his artery, his girlfriend is shot by a cop who just happened to show up, the man's brother was executed because a traumatised hitman deemed it necessary out of some sort of obligation to the girlfriend. Good post. Fargo is, among other things, an intelligent (postmodern) study of narrative, and that is one of the reasons I like it so much. Adaptation is a good example too, and one of my all time favourite films. I you are interested in this stuff (and you haven't already done so), check out some Paul Auster, mainly the New York Trilogy, which set the example for Adaptation et. al.
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Jun 22, 2017 23:38
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precision posted:That was loving brilliant from start to finish. Wish the front half season had been even close to how great that ending was, especially the final scene. Okay then. I wish this too and also that this season as a whole was as entertaining to watch as it is to discuss afterwards. It's weird but I'm getting far more satisfaction from this thread and reading articles about themes etc than I did from the vast majority of this series. I wonder if it'd be a better season to binge.
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Jun 22, 2017 23:43
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That was a suitable ending to a wet fart of a season. I mean it's not bad bad but overall it just didn't work for me, the plot was mostly pretty lame, and the characters felt underdeveloped, so when everyone got killed today, I just couldn't care less about any of them. Too bad, it did have its moments, but most of the interesting and memorable stuff seemed to be in the first couple of episodes. And the last scene, yeah, just reminded me that I probably should've watched Lord of War instead.
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Jun 23, 2017 00:06
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What a lovely season. Better or worse than other seasons matters very little. Sad the new wrench/swango theme didn't last long. What was with Sy? Brain damage from the coma most likely?
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Jun 23, 2017 00:13
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mobby_6kl posted:And the last scene, yeah, just reminded me that I probably should've watched Lord of War instead. It's basically Lord of War without the main character's arc, just the secondary characters and antagonist.
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Jun 23, 2017 00:16
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Escobarbarian posted:I wish this too and also that this season as a whole was as entertaining to watch as it is to discuss afterwards. It's weird but I'm getting far more satisfaction from this thread and reading articles about themes etc than I did from the vast majority of this series. One thing I really loved was how the final scene mirrored the first in every way. In the final scene, we're rooting for Gloria's version of the truth, even though it doubtless doesn't line up with what the documents in Varga's pocket say, or what Google says if you look him up. We've seen a story that tells us this man is VM Varga and he deserves to be punished for transgressions. In the opening scene, we're rooting for the man being interrogated (or indifferent to him) specifically because we haven't seen any story, or the story. All we know is that it sounds like he's the victim of bureaucracy; but in the final scene, we're being explicitly shown the hubris of bureaucracy to believe that it can transcend facts, and hoping that it can't.
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Jun 23, 2017 00:32
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I love every season of Fargo and am sad it is probably over for good. Hopefully Legion continues to be good in its stead. e: precision posted:One thing I really loved was how the final scene mirrored the first in every way. In the final scene, we're rooting for Gloria's version of the truth, even though it doubtless doesn't line up with what the documents in Varga's pocket say, or what Google says if you look him up. We've seen a story that tells us this man is VM Varga and he deserves to be punished for transgressions. I didn't catch this but it is definitely intentional and really cool. The first scene, the interrogator says the man isn't who he says he is and we assume he is full of poo poo and Burgle does the same thing at the end and we know she is actually right. So It Goes fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 00:32
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Yeah god drat that's a real good catch/post.
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Jun 23, 2017 00:36
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this was the first sort of good season out of the 3 but it was still clumsy and full of stupid poo poo and basically like 3 or 4 episodes of story stretched out into 10 which was incredibly tedious. its obvious based on everything else this entire loving season that varga is walking out that door free, end your loving story you coward. burgle was the most useless character I've ever seen in a tv show and as a bonus she was also incredibly annoying with that folksy retard poo poo and came with a clonestamped oh-yah-don'tcha-know-there partner to make those scenes extra grating. what a waste of time, someone edit this down to 3 good episodes please. god drat half the characters and 3/4 the episodes were unnecessary. Mr. Unlucky fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 01:11
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If you haven't liked any of the seasons so far, why are you watching this show? That's over a full day of TV-watching.
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Jun 23, 2017 01:23
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Overall this season has made me really afraid to open my refrigerator. Mr. Wrench killing Emmit makes sense to me just as an example of the larger theme of characters forcing facts to fit their own narratives (the most obvious examples being the Stasi bureaucrat, Sheriff Moe Dammick, and Burgle and Varga's dueling narratives in the interrogation room). Emmit was so convinced he deserved punishment for Ray (even though he probably didn't) and Wrench was so convinced that somebody had to die to avenge Nikki (even though it was her own fault for attacking an innocent state trooper) that they kind of made it true. So did I miss anything, or did we never really get confirmation as to who killed Ennis? This is not a criticism, just an observation. I'm still working off the assumption that there's no way it was Maurice, and that he just found Ennis dead when he got there (but perhaps that's just me trying to force facts to fit my own narrative). Also, any mention of the city of Fargo at all?
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Jun 23, 2017 01:42
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I was definitely under the impression Maurice killed Ennis. What made you think otherwise?
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Jun 23, 2017 01:43
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Was there some significance to the desert in the fridge? They focused on it for a bit there, I'm trying to think if Varga ate that at one point, so it would symbolize that Emmit accepted what happened and had no more guilt. Or maybe it was just a dessert.
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Jun 23, 2017 01:48
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CBJSprague24 posted:Other than that, I'm completely underwhelmed. This show is so far up its own rear end with its long, drawn-out credit sequences and "This is a true story..." crap and deep messages or whatever the gently caress that finish was supposed to be. Why would you watch anything to do with the Coen brothers if you feel this way? Killing time between Jeff Dunham specials?
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Jun 23, 2017 01:48
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Medullah posted:Was there some significance to the desert in the fridge? They focused on it for a bit there, I'm trying to think if Varga ate that at one point, so it would symbolize that Emmit accepted what happened and had no more guilt. i want to go back and watch it but considering it was jello it may have been jiggling, indicating that there was someone behind him. idk tho.
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Jun 23, 2017 01:51
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Mr. Unlucky posted:this was the first sort of good season out of the 3 but it was still clumsy and full of stupid poo poo and basically like 3 or 4 episodes of story stretched out into 10 which was incredibly tedious. what's it like having such high standards you can't actually enjoy anything at all
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Jun 23, 2017 01:53
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Escobarbarian posted:I was definitely under the impression Maurice killed Ennis. What made you think otherwise? Mainly I figured it had to be somebody Ennis had a history with, because gluing a man's nose and mouth shut seems really sadistic and personal in a way that I can't see Maurice being capable of. As I recall the only thing he said to Ray and Nikki about the murder was something like, "Boy, I hope that guy wasn't a friend of yours", which is ambiguous enough that I thought they were leaving the door open to Maurice having just found him dead.
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Jun 23, 2017 01:58
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The Clap posted:The ending was perfect and totally in line with the rest of the season. Overall S3 was a bit weaker than 1 and 2 but it was shooting for something different which is, like, the only good reason to have an anthology show in the first place. Plus a "weak" season of Fargo is more nuanced, intricate and generally better than the vast majority of narrative television. In a world of shows shooting for the lowest common denominator to tune in, Noah Hawley has a distinct voice and I appreciate the poo poo out of that. Amen, friend. I can get Me-Too TV anywhere; Fargo is always something very special, even if it's "weak". Liked the season, loved the ending. Poor Sy 
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Jun 23, 2017 02:00
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I really hope this was the last season of Fargo so we don't have to watch the corpse of what was once one of the best shows on television be dragged along any further.
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Jun 23, 2017 02:11
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Medullah posted:Was there some significance to the desert in the fridge? They focused on it for a bit there, I'm trying to think if Varga ate that at one point, so it would symbolize that Emmit accepted what happened and had no more guilt. That was a salad, not dessert. I assumed it had to do with those type of salads are a midwestern thing, but maybe they aren't.
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Jun 23, 2017 02:11
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I only just realised Sy didn't actually have to drink piss and that Varga just rubbed his dick/balls inside the mug. Still by far my least favourite/the most unnecessary moment in the season, but at least it's not QUITE as horrendous as I had thought.
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Jun 23, 2017 02:18
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phosdex posted:That was a salad, not dessert. What the actual gently caress? No wonder America is so overweight if that's what you call a loving salad
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Jun 23, 2017 02:19
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