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Harrow posted:Y'know, maybe my issue with Red Mage is that its rotation is too... transparent? The best way I can describe the feeling is: when I use a spell as a Red Mage, it's not because of what the spell does, but because it's the next spell I'm supposed to use. The spell I cast has less to do with the effect the spell has and more to do with the fact that it's the next step in my rotation and/or because the button lit up. It feels like a mini-game more than a coherent in-universe fighting style. I think you just don't like the RDM playstyle. What you're describing isn't really all the different mechanically, it's just the why. You cast what you cast on RDM because it's the correct mana builder at the highest potency without creating a >30 variance. Once you keep that balancing act up long enough, you dump with melee. It's usually fairly straightforward, but managing it while never wasting a proc is a challenge, and when you get streaks of one color proccing and the other not, you're definitely adjusting on the fly. I prefer it a lot personally because RDM is a priority system, versus the fairly rigid fixed rotations most other classes have. Like, you're very rarely changing up what spells you cast in what order with BLM, there's a specific order that is best, and ideally you'll never waver from that. The skill in BLM is executing your skills correctly even when forced to move or things go sideways, and recovering quickly if that disrupts your flow. Being able to weave together everything to create those crazy bursts of flare x3, etc. The skill in RDM is making sure you're always maintaining the balance and pressing the best button for the situation, which gets more complex the more things proc. They're different and probably not everyone will enjoy both, but I don't think just adding more buttons would enhance the feel of RDM for me.
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Jun 23, 2017 20:51
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I've now played WAR at 70 for a couple of days and it feels bad enough to play I'm considering just dropping tanking entirely, and either being 4-6 weeks behind on gearing while I level a DPS up or just not playing FF14 for the foreseeable future. 
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Jun 23, 2017 20:54
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My warrior isn't 70 yet but I feel somewhat in the same boat, though still going to play FF14 rather than quit. But I'm at least considering just switching to Paladin in the meantime since I already have all the gear, I just have to level it up a little.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:01
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Harrow posted:Y'know, maybe my issue with Red Mage is that its rotation is too... transparent? The best way I can describe the feeling is: when I use a spell as a Red Mage, it's not because of what the spell does, but because it's the next spell I'm supposed to use. The spell I cast has less to do with the effect the spell has and more to do with the fact that it's the next step in my rotation and/or because the button lit up. It feels like a mini-game more than a coherent in-universe fighting style. I personally like it a lot more then rigid rotations and positional. I was playing Monk pre-SB and while it was fun I could never remember what abilities need to be at what position, it just sort of feels like a chaotic mess - it doesn't feel like there's rhyme or reason to the positionals, you just sort of need to remember them. I feel like RDM can be described in the same way you're describing BLM: you cast quick spells to cast long spells. The only reason you have to cast Jolt is to dualcast something better, in the same way blizzard spells are utilitarian in BLM. You build mana to do your finishers just in the same way BLM wants to maintain enoch to cast foul. quote:I prefer it a lot personally because RDM is a priority system, versus the fairly rigid fixed rotations most other classes have. Like, you're very rarely changing up what spells you cast in what order with BLM, there's a specific order that is best, and ideally you'll never waver from that. Oxyclean fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 21:03
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The Gate posted:The skill in RDM is making sure you're always maintaining the balance and pressing the best button for the situation, which gets more complex the more things proc. They're different and probably not everyone will enjoy both, but I don't think just adding more buttons would enhance the feel of RDM for me. Oxyclean posted:I feel like RDM can be described in the same way you're describing BLM: you cast quick spells to cast long spells. The only reason you have to cast Jolt is to dualcast something better, in the same way blizzard spells are utilitarian in BLM. You build mana to do your finishers just in the same way BLM wants to maintain enoch to cast foul. I think part of it might just be that Veraero and Verthunder do exactly the same thing, and Verstone and Verfire do exactly the same thing, and the only difference between them is what kind of mana they give and/or what proc you need to be able to cast them. It ends up feeling really artificial (more so than your usual MMO job). It's why casting those spells feels more like playing a little mini-game where I just want to make the right bars go up than it does, y'know, casting spells in a fight. I'm not so much asking for more buttons (well, OK, I want to consolidate Jolt II/Impact into one button and then add like one more melee skill but that's a net equal so  ), so much as I want those buttons to do interesting things.Every Black Mage spell does something different. There isn't a single spell that just does the same as another spell, but it's a different color and you use it in a different circumstance. Okay, Foul and Flare are extremely similar but you cast one when you have a special buff and the other when you're willing to dump all your MP, so I guess that previous sentence isn't strictly true, but at least they don't have identical potencies and MP costs. My preference for that sort of variety over just alternate versions of spells that make different bars go up is both mechanical (I like it when each ability I use has a unique effect beyond which resource it builds up) and, I dunno, ~*~my immersion~*~ (I like it when an ice spell does something meaningfully different from a fire spell). I don't want to get too armchair game designer, but what I mean is that I think Red Mage would be a better job if Veraero and Verthunder were actually different spells that did different things, and Verstone and Verfire also had that. Maybe that's a bad idea because you need to cast all of those for the central resource mechanic, but then again, it works great for Samurai, where you need to use all three of your combos for your main resource and they all do different, specific things. More interesting buttons, rather than just more buttons.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:04
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It feels like I have received more commends on RDM in a week than I would get on BLM in three months. I can't tell if that is because of the head drawing flashiness, being relatively good vs lovely RDMs, the manashifts and clutch heal/raises, or what.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:05
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Galaga Galaxian posted:It feels like I have received more commends on RDM in a week than I would get on BLM in three months. I and I assume every other dragoon in the game will commend any ranged DPS who stays in dragon sight range during dungeons, so that's a free way to pick up a few more
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Jun 23, 2017 21:07
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I've been rescuing people that leave the dragoon tether range and don't look like they're coming back. It's caused more than a few deaths but I regret nothing.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:11
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Harrow posted:I think part of it might just be that Veraero and Verthunder do exactly the same thing, and Verstone and Verfire do exactly the same thing, and the only difference between them is what kind of mana they give and/or what proc you need to be able to cast them. It ends up feeling really artificial (more so than your usual MMO job). It's why casting those spells feels more like playing a little mini-game where I just want to make the right bars go up than it does, y'know, casting spells in a fight. I'm not so much asking for more buttons (well, OK, I want to consolidate Jolt II/Impact into one button and then add like one more melee skill but that's a net equal so Fire 1 3 and 4 feel kind of similar, one is faster, the other stacks you instantly and the last you just need a buff to cast. I'm not really sure why Enoch doesn't just make your fire 3 better or whatever, or fire 1 and 3 aren't merged/upgrades. Blizzard is basically the same, granted they added the umbral heart thing. Does Blizzard 1 even come into the rotation anymore? Why is blizzard 2 still around? Why is there one ability to warp to ley lines and another to warp to a player? (Although I think most BLMs are going to agree between the lines was a poor way to solve leyline problems) Verstone and fire exist not to be similar to aero and thunder, but Jolt. I guess I see what you're saying when you say that RDM is all about making your mana bars go up, but I find that's what makes it interesting. Almost every cast is a decision tree depending on procs and your mana.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:13
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:I've been rescuing people that leave the dragoon tether range and don't look like they're coming back. It's caused more than a few deaths but I regret nothing. You are my hero
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Jun 23, 2017 21:14
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I know I said earlier that the only change I'd make to drg would be to make LotD do more, but if I were YoshiP for a day I'd also make Dragon Sight last until broken (with a 2 second or so grace period) instead of having a set duration because it's just such a fun mechanic
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Jun 23, 2017 21:15
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I'm guilty of ruining at least one Dragon Sight with the RDM leap-back I can't remember the name of and now I feel bad about that 
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Jun 23, 2017 21:17
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Oxyclean posted:Verstone and fire exist not to be similar to aero and thunder, but Jolt. I guess I see what you're saying when you say that RDM is all about making your mana bars go up, but I find that's what makes it interesting. Almost every cast is a decision tree depending on procs and your mana. Yup, same. It might be a "mini-game", but I like it. I'm super glad they didn't do all that other stuff, because almost every single other dps class in the game caters to that style of play, and RDM is finally very different feeling.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:20
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cheetah7071 posted:Is there actually a limitation that grade 6 materia can only go in the first slot, or was that just a fever dream I had while reading the patch notes? I believe that Grade 6 materia cannot go into a slot beyond Overmeld 1.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:21
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Vadoc posted:My warrior isn't 70 yet but I feel somewhat in the same boat, though still going to play FF14 rather than quit. But I'm at least considering just switching to Paladin in the meantime since I already have all the gear, I just have to level it up a little. To be fair, about half of my issues with WAR right now are systemic issues: everything does too much damage at i300, and the tank damage nerf means generating a secure threat lead is much harder than it used to be, especially when jobs like SAM exist. The other half is that the new beast gauge mechanics suck, the rotation to make good use of it is a pain to do and makes WAR feel like way too much work, and the lack of a 360 degree AoE threat generator is poo poo. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 21:22
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Oxyclean posted:Verstone and fire exist not to be similar to aero and thunder, but Jolt. I guess I see what you're saying when you say that RDM is all about making your mana bars go up, but I find that's what makes it interesting. Almost every cast is a decision tree depending on procs and your mana. Ultimately it comes down to a playstyle choice, I agree, but let's not pretend that RDM's stuff is a "decision tree" in practice. On paper sure, but when you're actually casting and fighting it just isn't really there, you basically just cast Jolt/Impact > Ver-longcast unless you get a Ver-shortcast proc, then you cast that and then cast the Ver-longcast that corresponds to whichever meter is lower. Once you get to around 70 mana maybe you turn your brain on for a second but even then it's usually pretty dang simple assuming you're level 70 and have access to both Ver-finishers.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:23
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Oxyclean posted:Almost every cast is a decision tree depending on procs and your mana. What we've been saying is that the decisions are so easy to make that they might as well not exist.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:26
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cheetah7071 posted:Is there actually a limitation that grade 6 materia can only go in the first slot, or was that just a fever dream I had while reading the patch notes? The only limit on grade 6 materia is that you can only overmeld (advanced meld) it once. If you have a crafted item with two guaranteed slots, you can put up to three grade 6s into it.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:32
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Oxyclean posted:Fire 1 3 and 4 feel kind of similar, one is faster, the other stacks you instantly and the last you just need a buff to cast. I guess what I'm saying is that I want Verstone and Verfire to be different from each other. They're already different from Veraero and Verthunder, in that they have a cast time that it's reasonable to hardcast, but they're identical to one another. I think that's what drains the interest out of it for me--I don't care whether I'm hitting the enemy with stone or fire because they do the same thing and the only reason I picked one or the other is because its associated mana is lower. I have a similar issue with Impact. Mechanically, what's the point of Impact at all? Why does it need to be a separate button when it's functionally just Jolt III and you'd never want to cast Jolt II with an Impact proc up? If it had a unique effect besides just being a third option if you don't have Verstone or Verfire up, I think it'd be a lot more interesting as a spell. I think there are more interesting decisions to be made between Fire I, III, and IV. Fire III casts more slowly than Fire (3.5s to Fire's 2.5s) and its damage doesn't justify its longer cast time, but what it does do is max out your Astral Fire (which is why it doesn't just replace Fire--it isn't a straight upgrade, it's used for a different purpose and you'd never cast it more than once in a row). Fire IV doesn't just replace Fire under Enochian because the difference is that Fire refreshes Astral Fire but Fire IV doesn't (and instead does a lot more damage). I actually could see maybe consolidating Fire and Fire III, though, just knock Fire III's cast time down to 2.5s and lower its potency a bit, because once you have Astral Fire up, it really doesn't matter whether the spell you cast gives you one stack or three, it still refreshes the duration of the full stack. Not really sure what balance considerations that would have (specifically, how huge of a deal would it be to get three stacks of Astral Fire on a one second shorter cast time?). And to be fair, I really don't know what my proposed solution would be, how I would make Verstone/Verfire different from each other and Veraero/Verthunder different from each other. If, for example, Verfire applied some sort of debuff to the target, you might have situations where you cast Acceleration and then you have to decide, would I rather guarantee an opportunity to refresh the Verfire debuff, or do I need white mana from Verstone more than I need to make sure that debuff doesn't fall off? And on top of that, they'd feel more like mechanically distinct spells. Ultimately, though, it's not like I think Red Mage shouldn't exist or something. Like I've said before, clearly it really resonates with a lot of people, and the idea of a cool-looking DPS with relatively few chances to just totally gently caress up and be useless is very good. I just think there's one or two steps further it could go and have more interest to it without losing that core simplicity. Oxyclean posted:Why is blizzard 2 still around? I have absolutely no idea but it's probably the same reason Tri-Bind is still around (and Red Mages got their own Tri-Bind).
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Jun 23, 2017 21:33
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Yeah I interpreted that in the patch notes as "only one grade 6 per item, period" which would have been a fine system and thus seemed plausible
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Jun 23, 2017 21:33
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Harrow posted:I have absolutely no idea but it's probably the same reason Tri-Bind is still around (and Red Mages got their own Tri-Bind). tri-bind is still around because it's literally the only spammable summoner aoe. It's still better than ruin at like 4 enemies, I think
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Jun 23, 2017 21:34
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cheetah7071 posted:tri-bind is still around because it's literally the only spammable summoner aoe. It's still better than ruin at like 4 enemies, I think God, poor Summoners 
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Jun 23, 2017 21:35
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SKULL.GIF posted:What we've been saying is that the decisions are so easy to make that they might as well not exist. Not always the case, but someone flying on autopilot might not even notice that they're potentially wasting procs, or casting too much before diving in, etc. I think that you'll see a difference at 70 between players that are on autopilot for most of the rotation and ones who aren't. It's much easier to start fixing your mana at the bottom half of the gauge to make sure you're not even at 80+ mana than it is to wait until you're at 70 and only 1-2 GCD from being able to dive in. With the way the procs work, it's very possible to find yourself constantly evening out your mana if you always do the "cast short ability then dualcast the lower mana of the long abilities" thing.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:37
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So quick question for those who might know: does the 50/60 dungeon queue pull up dungeons you've unlocked but never run before, or is it just limited to those you've run already, like the old 50 and 60 separate queues? Because I've got a couple of alts where I've never done any 50 dungeon except the 2.x story ones and only cycling between those could get old fast.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:37
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Now I'm somehow feeling vaguely guilty for playing RDM, the what-is-this-EZ-mode? of DPS jobs apparently
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Jun 23, 2017 21:40
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Lemon-Lime posted:I've now played WAR at 70 for a couple of days and it feels bad enough to play I'm considering just dropping tanking entirely, and either being 4-6 weeks behind on gearing while I level a DPS up or just not playing FF14 for the foreseeable future. After a few days of ex primals I have the following problems with warrior: 1. Incoming damage is higher but not so high that I'm required to full time tank stance. Gauge spenders in tank stance are still not worth using in most cases when spending gauge in dps stance remains better. So optimal play for warrior is still to aggressively stance dance even while mt but now you're harshly penalized for doing so. 2. In addition to the penalty for stance dancing, removing stacks from our buffs has restricted how we can build gauge easily. Path giving the equivalent of two hw stacks is nice but the fact remains that you're entirely locked into your gcd rotation to build gauge; moreso now that zerk and infuriate are both 60s which encourages you to use infuriate during a zerk window. Shout out to enhanced infuriate being useless garbage btw. 2b. Speaking of useless garbage I can think of much better options for one of five precious ability slots then whatever shake it off is supposed to be. 3. getting the most out of inner release, our premier and best tool for spike dps, now takes like 30-40s worth of gcd rotation so that you go in with full gauge and fresh storms eye. This is really unwieldy and there are no concessions whatsoever to having to handle mechanics or unexpected developments mid fight and having to delay ir or use it prematurely is a significant hit to dps. If I was going to fix all this I'd probably add a couple options off gcd for increasing gauge (having onslaught build gauge instead of taking it would be very nice) and I would either cap the stance penalty so it wouldn't apply at 50 or under, or get rid of the penalty entirely. Essentially, my position is gently caress Off Game I want to stance dance and you should not be trying to stop me.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:40
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cheetah7071 posted:Yeah I interpreted that in the patch notes as "only one grade 6 per item, period" which would have been a fine system and thus seemed plausible You might be thinking of an interview a while back, where I'm pretty sure they said that grade 7 would be one per item.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:41
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here's my opnion on PLD this patch: it owns. you get a move that makes u look like a super cool guy and everyone stands behind you and takes less dmg and all u gotta do for it is press a button and just chill out for a lil bit
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Jun 23, 2017 21:44
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Ciaphas posted:Now I'm somehow feeling vaguely guilty for playing RDM, the what-is-this-EZ-mode? of DPS jobs apparently You shouldn't. Play what you like, who cares what people on a forum think?
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Jun 23, 2017 21:47
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Ciaphas posted:Now I'm somehow feeling vaguely guilty for playing RDM, the what-is-this-EZ-mode? of DPS jobs apparently Hell no, don't feel bad for playing a cool job just because some jackass (me) doesn't think its DPS style is interesting enough. And think of it this way: sometimes you'll get to Dualcast Verraise both healers in a trial and avert a guaranteed wipe all by yourself. That's the coolest poo poo.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:50
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Wangsbig posted:here's my opnion on PLD this patch: it owns. you get a move that makes u look like a super cool guy and everyone stands behind you and takes less dmg and all u gotta do for it is press a button and just chill out for a lil bit the ability feels bad. Like it will only be useful in raids and they have to do something specific for it to be useful. I'd rather have something I use more often.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:50
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Ciaphas posted:Now I'm somehow feeling vaguely guilty for playing RDM, the what-is-this-EZ-mode? of DPS jobs apparently Play the thing you enjoy, especially if it's actually doing fine DPS wise. In fighting games I like to play characters with limited movesets like Potemkin in Guilty Gear or Ryu in Street Fighter. I couldn't tell you why I do, but I definitely don't have to work as hard for wins as certain other characters (well with Potemkin maybe but in a different sort of way). And that's fine because people have different tastes. In MMOs though I want more complexity because the actual core combat mechanics are very simple and I get bored otherwise. It's like my friend I mentioned a few pages back being disappointed that DRK is a lot easier now, he picked it because he felt he could express himself more with its advanced mechanics compared to the other tanks. Ultimately this discussion is as much me working out my own feelings about the job as it is hearing what other people have to say about it. I haven't really had the chance to sit down and put my thoughts on paper because I was wrapped up in pre- and post-release hype and it's only now that I have my full kit and am starting to repeat content that I'm able to figure out what I like and don't like about it. Ultimately if I don't feel something special once I do EXs this weekend I'll probably switch back to BLM over the next two weeks but we'll see.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:51
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Holyshoot posted:the ability feels bad. Like it will only be useful in raids and they have to do something specific for it to be useful. I'd rather have something I use more often. sigh guess you're right, if only we could find a raid in which one hundred percent block chance and reduced damage for whoever stands behind you would be useful
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Jun 23, 2017 21:52
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unseenlibrarian posted:So quick question for those who might know: does the 50/60 dungeon queue pull up dungeons you've unlocked but never run before, or is it just limited to those you've run already, like the old 50 and 60 separate queues? Only Expert and Mentor require their required list of duties to be complete before you can queue them. I tanked a friends Susano, Sirensong, and Shisui on roulette without him previouslt clearing them. I'm pretty sure 50/60 doesn't, because we were queuing roulettes for those as he was finishing 3.5 during early access.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:53
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Skaw posted:Only Expert and Mentor require their required list of duties to be complete before you can queue them. I tanked a friends Susano, Sirensong, and Shisui on roulette without him previouslt clearing them. Unlocking Shisui and then immediately getting it on an LDR was good.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:54
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Skaw posted:Only Expert and Mentor require their required list of duties to be complete before you can queue them. I tanked a friends Susano, Sirensong, and Shisui on roulette without him previouslt clearing them. I'm pretty sure 50/60 doesn't, because we were queuing roulettes for those as he was finishing 3.5 during early access. 50/60 doesn't require you to complete all the duties they include to unlock them, but what I'm wondering is if a dungeon I haven't done could come up in those if I queue with other people, or if queuing with me is limiting the pool of dungeons they can get.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:56
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It was cool unlocking Sophia in HW, forgetting to do it, and then a month later getting it in Trial Roulette and having no idea what was going on.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:57
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Harrow posted:50/60 doesn't require you to complete all the duties they include to unlock them, but what I'm wondering is if a dungeon I haven't done could come up in those if I queue with other people, or if queuing with me is limiting the pool of dungeons they can get. Yeah, once it's unlocked, it's available for roulettes outside of Expert and Mentor regardless of clearing. Only those two require clears because you can't even queue for them until you have.
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Jun 23, 2017 22:00
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Ciaphas posted:Now I'm somehow feeling vaguely guilty for playing RDM, the what-is-this-EZ-mode? of DPS jobs apparently Don't worry, I've also played SAM and NIN (yes, hi, it's me, a weeaboo) and they're also fairly straightforward once you've run a couple dungeons with them. Play whatever you think is raddest.
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Jun 23, 2017 22:03
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Countblanc posted:Ultimately this discussion is as much me working out my own feelings about the job as it is hearing what other people have to say about it. I haven't really had the chance to sit down and put my thoughts on paper because I was wrapped up in pre- and post-release hype and it's only now that I have my full kit and am starting to repeat content that I'm able to figure out what I like and don't like about it. Ultimately if I don't feel something special once I do EXs this weekend I'll probably switch back to BLM over the next two weeks but we'll see. For me, I think a lot of it is just a stupid ~*~my immersion~*~ thing. Someone having functionally identical earth and fire magic, and functionally identical wind and thunder magic, and using specific spells only because it fills up specific bars, that's not really inspiring to me. It doesn't feel like a good gameplay representation of how someone with those spells would actually fight. Obviously MMOs are full of abstraction, but I think when abilities have specific effects instead of just different animations for the same effect, it's easier for me to get excited about using them or picture why my character would fight in this style. With Red Mage, I only get that in broad strokes--use cast magic through my focus until it's bursting with power, then unleash that through my sword. And that's really cool. It's just the individual, spell-by-spell level where I'm a little disappointed. I really just want Verstone to do something different from Verfire beyond which bar it fills up so that it feels more like I hit the enemy in the face with a huge boulder. I'm not even a roleplayer, I dunno, it's just a thing I like and I definitely feel it when it's missing.  Skaw posted:Yeah, once it's unlocked, it's available for roulettes outside of Expert and Mentor regardless of clearing. Only those two require clears because you can't even queue for them until you have. Oh, so to clarify: I don't have to complete each dungeon to unlock it for a roulette (again, outside of expert or mentor), I just have to accept the quest that unlocks it? Well poo poo, that'll save me some time. Here I was thinking I'd have to set aside some time once I hit 70 to grind out completing all the 50/60 dungeons so that queuing with me wouldn't be a pain in the rear end for other players.
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Jun 23, 2017 22:04
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