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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
| Total: | 229 votes | ||
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Falstaff posted:That's not socialism, and for actual socialists (like myself) the constant misuse of the term by social democrats is irritating. I will try to do better.
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Jun 24, 2017 01:49
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Lol these dipshits support policies guranteed to torpedo the economy and run anti-gun canidates, I can't imagine why they'd be unpopular with voters. The part that really makes me laugh is the bit where they want to not only destroy the oil industry, but also want a huge gas tax increase.
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Jun 24, 2017 02:27
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By its descriptive definition, socialism seems to be any belief that society would be improved by basing it on materialistic principles other than greed.
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Jun 24, 2017 03:12
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Doc Hawkins posted:By its descriptive definition, socialism seems to be any belief that society would be improved by basing it on materialistic principles other than greed. Lol, "socialism is when people decide to not be greedy"
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Jun 24, 2017 04:01
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How many more 1 votes does this retarded thread need to get to get permalocked like it deserves? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 24, 2017 04:03
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:How many more 1 votes does this retarded thread need to get to get permalocked like it deserves? Care to share why do you think this is a bad thread?
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Jun 24, 2017 04:09
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I just 5-ed so it stays open for containment.
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Jun 24, 2017 04:24
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Ytlaya posted:It would be nice if Pelosi was replaced with someone more left-wing, but the focus on her specifically seems a little weird. She seems to be bad in the same ways as nearly all other congressional Democrats, so I can't help but feel the disproportionate focus is at least partially related to an ingrained negative impression due to years of Republican smearing. This isn't to say that most of the criticism of her is necessarily wrong; it's just disproportionate. People focus on Pelosi because she is the former speaker of the house and current minority leader of the house. She is a perfectly reasonable person to focus on.
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Jun 24, 2017 04:58
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Fados posted:Care to share why do you think this is a bad thread? Because you're all a bunch of loving wastes. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 24, 2017 06:31
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Because you're all a bunch of loving wastes. Its adorable when redditors stumble in here
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Jun 24, 2017 06:39
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shrike82 posted:Lol, "socialism is when people decide to not be greedy" People not being greedy is the ideal under socialism, just as people being rational voters is the ideal under a democratic system. That doesn't mean that its practitioners will always behave according to that ideal.
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Jun 24, 2017 06:42
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Peven Stan posted:Its adorable when redditors stumble in here Don't worry this thread got linked on /r/neoliberal.
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Jun 24, 2017 06:46
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Because you're all a bunch of loving wastes. Hey, don't call me a democrat.
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Jun 24, 2017 06:57
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Don't worry this thread got linked on /r/neoliberal. Who's permabanned rereg are you
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Jun 24, 2017 07:20
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California democrats block state single payer: https://twitter.com/davidsirota/status/878417673264087040
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Jun 24, 2017 07:41
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shrike82 posted:Lol, "socialism is when people decide to not be greedy" Hmm, no. I'll try again. People make moral arguments for capitalism all the time, and most reduce to the claim that the greatest overall benefit comes from maximizing self-interested economic activity, within transactional limits (ie there are actions you can't legally do, but anything that's legal tends to be legal to do as much as you want). As Smith said "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, etc. that we expect our dinner." People who claim that there are conditions under which society is benefited more by restricting self-interested economic transactions, that the self-interest of the butcher, baker, or corporation, is not necessarily also the interest of society, that the marginal utility of individual wealth diminishes sharply well before the billions, are in practice called socialists. Maybe I used "descriptivist" incorrectly. I meant, "what, in practice, people use the word to refer to." I specified "materialist" because there could be actively wealth-despising religious perspectives which don't code as socialist; I don't know any, but if they exist I don't want to force them into The Big Tent.
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Jun 24, 2017 07:46
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hello fellow workers
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Jun 24, 2017 08:06
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ISIS CURES TROONS posted:Who's permabanned rereg are you Five bucks says Brainiac Five.
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Jun 24, 2017 08:11
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:How many more 1 votes does this retarded thread need to get to get permalocked like it deserves? Threads aren't actually gassed/closed based on rating. Which is good because D&D has had a consistent history of threads with Debate getting downvoted.
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Jun 24, 2017 08:37
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Falstaff posted:That's not socialism, and for actual socialists (like myself) the constant misuse of the term by social democrats is irritating. Do you live in the us, 'cause if you do the fish-meching is dumb to double down on. Literally anything leftwards is socialism, even if fucktards try dye reaganism as leftism
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Jun 24, 2017 09:44
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Don't worry this thread got linked on /r/neoliberal. Death to neoliberalism.
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Jun 24, 2017 10:15
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tekz posted:California democrats block state single payer: And says the bill should stay in a committee to enable a deep debate about access to healthcare, and also that in the aftermath of the Republican bill this is not the climate for California's own single payer bill to pass. The same rhetoric used to block gun control legislation after a major shooting.
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Jun 24, 2017 10:55
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steinrokkan posted:And says the bill should stay in a committee to enable a deep debate about access to healthcare, and also that in the aftermath of the Republican bill this is not the climate for California's own single payer bill to pass. The same rhetoric used to block gun control legislation after a major shooting. Well yeah instead of having a vote that each assembly member could be held accountable for the speaker is trying to shield the other Democrats. It's bullshit. If they don't want to bring it up for a vote then every member of the assembly should go.
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Jun 24, 2017 11:09
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Mister Facetious posted:Five bucks says Brainiac Five. Hopefully it'll be  because that is the most painfully obvious permaban re-reg ever.
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Jun 24, 2017 12:20
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:How many more 1 votes does this retarded thread need to get to get permalocked like it deserves? We will build it again. Also, it's apparently MIGF
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Jun 24, 2017 12:22
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The Insect Court posted:Hopefully it'll be
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Jun 24, 2017 12:39
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WampaLord posted:We will build it again. I'll actually probably start a new thread soon with an OP devoted to the dems flubbing all those special elections so that a leftist wouldn't win
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Jun 24, 2017 12:53
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also MIGF would include some real good rahm emmanuel slobbing in every other post
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Jun 24, 2017 12:56
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Doc Hawkins posted:Hmm, no. I'll try again. This is a downright loving stupid way to describe socialism. The vast majority of people laboring under capitalism work for the enrichment of others. It's precisely in their self-interest to overthrow the owners and put the economy under democratic control. With this description you're universalizing things from the point of view of the capitalist who is being restricted, rather than from the workers who are being liberated. It also ignores the crucial distinction between merwly regulating capitalism and overthrowing it. It's bad and dumb and if people are using socialism to refer to what you're describing they're wrong and should be corrected.
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Jun 24, 2017 16:06
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Jizz Festival posted:This is a downright loving stupid way to describe socialism. The vast majority of people laboring under capitalism work for the enrichment of others. It's precisely in their self-interest to overthrow the owners and put the economy under democratic control. With this description you're universalizing things from the point of view of the capitalist who is being restricted, rather than from the workers who are being liberated. https://theoutline.com/post/1767/the-end-will-be-delivered-by-amazon-drone quote:The central tenet of the political left is that the world can be won by the organization of the working class. The ongoing mission to reconstitute that class into a revolutionary body was never predicated on some reactionary belief in the purity and virtue of The Worker, but on the fact that it is workers, and workers alone, who have both the incentive and the power to demand a society dedicated to the material dignity of all people. Work stoppages and strikes can cripple businesses and disrupt the day-to-day function of society. They can imperil the easy generation of profit. So long as workers can do that, they have leverage, and so long as they have that leverage, the managers and dupe-servants of capital will do everything in their power to stymie and divide the solidarity of the working class. So far these efforts have been successful. They have been so successful in recent decades that even the notional left wing has grown suspicious of appeals to class politics, preferring to keep their hands clean of any association with the uneducated and unwoke. But before, we could take some solace in the idea that solidarity and political revolution were inevitable. Although every day under the depravity of capital was another day of needless human suffering, we could tell ourselves that would win, eventually. It was only a matter of time and we had all the time in the world.
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Jun 24, 2017 16:11
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Jizz Festival posted:This is a downright loving stupid way to describe socialism. Okay, third attempt: it isn't a description of socialism, it's a description of the pejorative use of the word "socialism" I've seen in the course of my (American, mid-30s) life. If it offends you, I'm glad! It offends me too! But luckily things seem to be improving. I think there's a gathering wave of New New Democrats who might be able to create some durable public goods before we *checks article* "boil in our own bodies."
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Jun 24, 2017 16:37
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I would argue that the people offended by the use of "democratic socialism" as Bernie & co. have used it are less interested in advancing socialism so much as being interested in feeling Correct. Seeing as the recent use has simultaneously reformed its perception in the public eye and still leaves the door open for "just" socialism in the future.
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Jun 24, 2017 18:40
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Grognan posted:Do you live in the us, 'cause if you do the fish-meching is dumb to double down on. No, I'm Canadian. Frankly, I don't know what "fish-meching" is, but I guess you're insulting me somehow. And that's a really dumb definition of socialism. Words mean things, and there's already a perfectly apt term for "capitalism with strong social safety nets (and maybe single-payer health care would be nice too)," it's called social democracy aka the Nordic model. It's okay if you support social democracy. In fact, it's a good thing, and the vast majority of socialists will throw their support behind you a la Sanders if you do, because unless you're a strict revolutionist why wouldn't you? The difference is that once a system like this is achieved, a social democrat will go "Job's done" and smile, while a socialist will say, "Well, that's a start, but we better keep working toward democratizing/seizing the means of production or we'll have to do this all over again in forty years." It's actually an important distinction. If you're on a picket line or something and shouting out socialist slogans while calling for your social democracy, that's fine. I won't bother correcting you, because that's not the time to have a discussion like this. But we're in a discussion on an online forum talking about this poo poo, and that's the perfect time to actually correct you on the topic.
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Jun 24, 2017 19:05
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Fishmeching means arguing over pointless semantics and missing the forest for the trees.
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Jun 24, 2017 19:10
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Falstaff posted:No, I'm Canadian. Frankly, I don't know what "fish-meching" is, but I guess you're insulting me somehow. Fishmech, the best troll on the forums. Gimmicks: engaging in pedantic arguments/nitpicking, being technically correct about everything, a "full communism now" socialist (  )
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Jun 24, 2017 19:12
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Mister Facetious posted:Fishmech, the best troll on the forums. Dubious about that last part; fishmech is also a Clintonista. I think he adopts whatever guise suits him in the moment.
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Jun 24, 2017 19:16
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I would love for us to have progressed to the point where social democrats and democratic socialists have to start fighting over our policy differences. I hope it happens in my lifetime. But until then those fights are more of the same old circular firing squad self-sabotage. Now liberals, keep a suspicious eye on them, they'll break at the first sign of a "market-based solution" that "works for all Americans."
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Jun 24, 2017 19:23
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Falstaff posted:No, I'm Canadian. That explains things somewhat. American posters ITT dont necessarily care about the difference because socialism in general is/was a dirty word down here, so its an overall good that a leftwards movement is co-opting and rehabilitating the term, even if it's not exactly socialism. After all, if things go well theres nothing stopping 'true' socialists from going "actually that was social democracy, which is close but true socialism is even better!" in the future.
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Jun 24, 2017 19:34
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Doc Hawkins posted:I would love for us to have progressed to the point where social democrats and democratic socialists have to start fighting over our policy differences. I hope it happens in my lifetime. But until then those fights are more of the same old circular firing squad self-sabotage. Buddy, the idea that honest discussion about the things you disagree on among leftists is circular firing squad self-sabotage is far more damaging to any left movement than even the most heated debate.
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Jun 24, 2017 19:35
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Majorian posted:Dubious about that last part; fishmech is also a Clintonista. Are you sure? I remember the opposite, but I can't be arsed to look through his posts.
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Jun 24, 2017 19:41
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