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Something neat is that unlike the modern Cybermen, the Mondasian, at least Bill the Prototype, seems to have imperfect emotion dampening. When she checked her database and realised that SHE was Bill Potts, she started expressing individuality at least in some form, with "I waITED. FoOooor... YoOoUu.." As far as I remember the revival Cybermen only did that in exceptional circumstances with CyberBrigg and Danny.
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Jun 25, 2017 10:01
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Vinylshadow posted:A delightfully creepy episode killing a gay black woman off would be loving vile
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Jun 25, 2017 10:06
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There is an almost zero chance Bill stays a cyberman or dies completely.
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Jun 25, 2017 10:10
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This was really good which makes even less hopeful that the next episode will be good, mostly since I don't think I've enjoyed the second half of a Moffat two parter since uhhh...Forest of the Dead or Day of the Moon.
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Jun 25, 2017 10:18
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BioEnchanted posted:Something neat is that unlike the modern Cybermen, the Mondasian, at least Bill the Prototype, seems to have imperfect emotion dampening. When she checked her database and realised that SHE was Bill Potts, she started expressing individuality at least in some form, with "I waITED. FoOooor... YoOoUu.." As far as I remember the revival Cybermen only did that in exceptional circumstances with CyberBrigg and Danny. It's actually been fairly common in the revival: the old head of Torchwood retains enough of her identity to kill a bunch of Cybermen while droning that she did it for Queen and Country; the Cyberman they spoke to in the sewers in the alternate Earth 2-parter started freaking out when it remembered it had been a mother with kids; Craig is able to break free after hearing his baby cry etc. To be fair, in the classic series - particularly in the 80s - they often forgot the Cybermen were supposed to be emotionless too. "EXCELLENT!"
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Jun 25, 2017 10:25
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I forgot all about those.
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Jun 25, 2017 10:27
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BioEnchanted posted:Something neat is that unlike the modern Cybermen, the Mondasian, at least Bill the Prototype, seems to have imperfect emotion dampening. When she checked her database and realised that SHE was Bill Potts, she started expressing individuality at least in some form, with "I waITED. FoOooor... YoOoUu.." As far as I remember the revival Cybermen only did that in exceptional circumstances with CyberBrigg and Danny. No they've been doing it as far back as season 2. In their introduction 2 parter the one that was roses mum uses that information to suss out that rose and her dad aren't brainwashed. In the final episode to that season a cyberman created from the head of torchwood remembers that she was doing her duty to the extent that she is able to rebel and hold off other cybermen. Ergo we know that: cybermen retain memories of who they were, but on the whole they won't care about it. Sufficient singlemindedness when being converted can carry over. In this case bill remembers that the doctor told her to wait, and is able to tell him that she waited. Plus the next episodes preview seems to imply that she'll help him anyway. E:fb (although the cyberman in the sewers was a woman who was going to get married in the morning, a fact I know from watching that two parter yesterday)
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Jun 25, 2017 10:28
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DoctorWhat posted:killing a gay black woman off would be loving vile Why. Would it be OK if Bill was an old straight white dude? Why does her gender, ethnicity or sexuality make a difference? I loved that at the start when the Doctor was explaining his plan in the kitchen he was wearing a tatty old coat, but changed to a nice clean velvet one for their kebab dinner on the roof.
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Jun 25, 2017 10:30
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Mr Beens posted:Why. So far all of the companions in the new series have survived (I'm counting Amy too seeing as she was just sent back in time to live out a full life). Clara even got immortality and a tardis. If Bill becomes the first to experience a proper on screen death then you do have to wonder whether that's due to her being a minority.
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Jun 25, 2017 10:32
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because there are no gay black women on tv and when gay women and women of color do show up, they are killed off violently or tragically at disproportionate rates.
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Jun 25, 2017 10:33
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To be clear I'd have no problem if on screen companion death was something that had been established up until now, but it isn't.
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Jun 25, 2017 10:34
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I'm kind of hoping someone threatens Simm with "I'll hit you so hard you'll turn into her!" Also I quite liked Missy's response to the Blue Man: "Are you human?!" "Oh, don't be a bitch..."
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Jun 25, 2017 10:34
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BSam posted:I need to watch that episode again. I only just remembered Talkie Toaster features. Ahh, so you're a WAFFLE man!
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Jun 25, 2017 11:24
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ewe2 posted:Ahh, so you're a WAFFLE man! NO I DO NOT WANT A CRUMPET! 
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Jun 25, 2017 11:27
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I actually am sort of wondering when exactly 'Bill is going to have this happen at the end of the season' happened in relation to the decision of 'Bill is going to be a gay lesbian'. I suspect that the former might have been set in stone before the latter, and they just figured that since this companion's only going to be around for one season they don't have to worry about blowback or running out of ideas on how to implement that in stories without shoehorning or downplaying it (which they did really well all through the season, honestly). They've got twelve episodes to play with and that's it, let's explore the actual ways this might come into play and and then just be done. I don't want Bill to die like this either, but that's less because 'it's really lovely if the first gay companion is also the first one to die in a very long time', and more because 'oh god, not like this, don't have the character I really like die like that!' Jerusalem posted:It's actually been fairly common in the revival: the old head of Torchwood retains enough of her identity to kill a bunch of Cybermen while droning that she did it for Queen and Country; the Cyberman they spoke to in the sewers in the alternate Earth 2-parter started freaking out when it remembered it had been a mother with kids; Craig is able to break free after hearing his baby cry etc. Honestly, if we consider Spare Parts (and you loving KNOW Moffat did) it squares, it didn't take Yvonne much to remember enough of her family to go back to them. I can imagine that the original Mondasian Cybermen just don't have good emotional dampeners. It doesn't seem a particularly huge priority given the reasoning for the conversion, the emotions only really become an obvious weakness afterwards. Another little thing I like about this episode that they wordlessly carried over from Spare Parts: The Mondasian Cybermen are pretty tall for some reason! They added height to both Bill and Yvonne, but realistically there isn't much reason to. Later Cybermen have uniform heights, but that makes sense since after a point they're mass-producing more and more uniform Cybermen. The Mondasians are augmented out of necessity to stop them from dying, but apparently the process adds a foot or so as like, a bonus feature!
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Jun 25, 2017 11:42
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Cleretic posted:Honestly, if we consider Spare Parts (and you loving KNOW Moffat did) it squares, it didn't take Yvonne much to remember enough of her family to go back to them. I can imagine that the original Mondasian Cybermen just don't have good emotional dampeners. I'm not sure it's the same thing as with Spare Parts, unfortunately. Yvonne only remembers her family because she's not actually converted. Her operation left her only partly lobotomised, thanks to a power outage, and her personality reverts to a childlike state. We do see a handful of other converted Mondasians, and they're completely emotionless. (Spare Parts is a really good story, and Marc Platt is a great writer.)
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Jun 25, 2017 12:22
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Here you definitely can consider bad emotional dampers though. Bill's a prototype after all.
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Jun 25, 2017 12:30
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The only thing I never got is how blocking emotions stops people/cybermen 'caring' about pain. Pain is not an emotion. Pain is pain and even without emotions it's easily powerful enough to shut down a body. No matter your state of mind, if you're in enough pain you simply cannot move your body properly or will faint.
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Jun 25, 2017 12:36
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Carbon dioxide posted:The only thing I never got is how blocking emotions stops people/cybermen 'caring' about pain. Yeah, the pain thing feels like a misstep. I thought the emotional inhibitor was to get around the existential horror of what you've done to yourself to survive. In Spare Parts it's specifically because people are so used to being inside of Mondas they can't cope on the surface and have mental breakdowns, like they have incredibly severe agoraphobia.
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Jun 25, 2017 12:53
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Carbon dioxide posted:The only thing I never got is how blocking emotions stops people/cybermen 'caring' about pain. Some people "push past" pain as an act of will (like athletes and whatnot), maybe not having emotions to deal with makes that will stronger?
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Jun 25, 2017 12:54
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To be fair, they don't need to move their bodies. Their robot parts probably would keep doing that even after they passed out, until they came to again and regained control enough to say "painpainpainpainpainpainpainpainpainpainpainpain"
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Jun 25, 2017 12:54
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And remember that the "solution" to the partial converts saying they were in pain was to just silence their speakers. The people running the hospital care about functionality, not what the patient is feeling. EDIT: you know looking at pics of the costume, it's obvious the extra height is in the "handles" and helmet. Mokinokaro fucked around with this message at 13:05 on Jun 25, 2017 |
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Jun 25, 2017 12:58
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Edited out due to forgetting one of the rules
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Jun 25, 2017 13:01
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I do wonder if the Master was the one who gave the Mondasians on the ship the idea of Cyber-conversion in the first place. Who are the other aliens on the ship like Jorj, the blue guy? Where were/are they hiding? I'm still thinking about this episode, definitely watching it again later.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:05
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DoctorWhat posted:because there are no gay black women on tv and when gay women and women of color do show up, they are killed off violently or tragically at disproportionate rates. Yeah, if this was a horror movie, Bill would be dead before the BBFC plate. The last companion to irreversibly snuff it with no take-backsies was Adric. Doesn't look good if they break the 34-year streak now.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:06
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Yeah, I'd love to get into the head of the couple people we see running the hospital. Get a clearer idea of their main motivations.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:06
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I hope Bill doesn't die and/or remain a Cyberman because that wouldn't be satisfying, although the Doctor trying and failing to save her might explain why he seemed to be trying to stop himself regenerating in the flashforward- maybe something happened that was traumatic enough that he no longer wants to live. Bill's mother has to come back into play somehow as well; yeah? She wasn't introduced just to pay off in that pathetic monk episode, surely?TinTower posted:Yeah, if this was a horror movie, Bill would be dead before the BBFC plate. Dafuq you talking about, we saw Amy and Rory's grave and River and Clara died onscreen. Moffat kills companions. 2house2fly fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Jun 25, 2017 |
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Jun 25, 2017 13:07
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Carbon dioxide posted:The only thing I never got is how blocking emotions stops people/cybermen 'caring' about pain.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:07
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2house2fly posted:I hope Bill doesn't die and/or remain a Cyberman because that wouldn't be satisfying, although the Doctor trying and failing to save her might explain why he seemed to be trying to stop himself regenerating in the flashforward- maybe something happened that was traumatic enough that he no longer wants to live. Bill's mother has to come back into play somehow as well; yeah? She wasn't introduced just to pay off in that pathetic monk episode, surely? The true secret origin of Handles  Bill never stops being a companion, she's just found by Matt Smith.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:13
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2house2fly posted:Dafuq you talking about, we saw Amy and Rory's grave and River and Clara died onscreen. Moffat kills companions. Amy and Rory died of old age after being trapped in the 30s, River got archived in the Library, Clara is functionally immortal and is running about with Ashildr in a TARDIS. Moffat likes to not-really-kill companions.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:14
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And Bill is a cyberman 
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Jun 25, 2017 13:14
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2house2fly posted:I hope Bill doesn't die and/or remain a Cyberman because that wouldn't be satisfying, although the Doctor trying and failing to save her might explain why he seemed to be trying to stop himself regenerating in the flashforward- maybe something happened that was traumatic enough that he no longer wants to live. Bill's mother has to come back into play somehow as well; yeah? She wasn't introduced just to pay off in that pathetic monk episode, surely? Amy and Rory were sent back in time where they lived rich full lives. River died before she became a recurring character. Clara is functionally immortal. It's not the same.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:14
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Carbon dioxide posted:The only thing I never got is how blocking emotions stops people/cybermen 'caring' about pain. There is a rare neurological condition where people can't register pain, so it's probably that.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:17
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Ah, if you live for fifty years before you die then you don't actually die. Did not know that.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:19
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Mokinokaro posted:EDIT: you know looking at pics of the costume, it's obvious the extra height is in the "handles" and helmet. I also like the idea that converted people are slightly taller because their bodies are entirely encased in and puppeted by the machinery encasing them. The conversion protects the physical flesh inside, but doesn't actually require it to do any work. Even if the reflexes kick in it won't matter because they are trapped inside their own bodies.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:21
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2house2fly posted:Ah, if you live for fifty years before you die then you don't actually die. Did not know that. I think people are drawing a distinction between getting killed off, and dying of old age
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Jun 25, 2017 13:34
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Of course Sara Kingdom managed to both age 50 years AND be killed off.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:35
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2house2fly posted:Ah, if you live for fifty years before you die then you don't actually die. Did not know that. It's pretty obtuse to ignore the difference between being directly killed and dying of old age off screen.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:36
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Namtab posted:It's pretty obtuse to ignore the difference between being directly killed and dying of old age off screen. Why? The character's just as dead. E: if the distinction is between the word "kill" and the word "die," the character is written to be dead and therefore their death is a result of intent, which is to say that no matter what a fictional character dies of they are "killed" by the writer.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:39
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BSam posted:So what is it? Somebody punch him out.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:41
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