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Namtab posted:It's pretty obtuse to ignore the difference between being directly killed and dying of old age off screen. They got tapped by Angels just like all their other victims. Dead by Monster/Alien-of-the-week.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:42
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Open Source Idiom posted:I'm not sure it's the same thing as with Spare Parts, unfortunately. Yvonne only remembers her family because she's not actually converted. Her operation left her only partly lobotomised, thanks to a power outage, and her personality reverts to a childlike state. Ray Purchase is in for a surprise, then, the next time he gets home.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:44
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Mokinokaro posted:EDIT: you know looking at pics of the costume, it's obvious the extra height is in the "handles" and helmet. I'm not so sure, check out post-conversion Bill next to Missy in Jerusalem's gifdump. Bill's like a head taller, but Pearl Mackie's definitely shorter than Michelle Gomez in that first scene.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:44
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It took Matthew Waterhouse over a decade to get a Big Finish gig. Alex Kingston got one while she was still guest starring.
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Jun 25, 2017 13:46
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Namtab posted:Amy and Rory were sent back in time where they lived rich full lives. Millennials sent to a time before cell phones or internet? Basically years of torture right there. The first few decades of TV were pretty bad too. And then what happens in their golden years? Disco. Pff, rich full lives. Namtab posted:There is a rare neurological condition where people can't register pain, so it's probably that. That impairs survival though, because if you don't notice pain you won't notice minor damage. People having a severe emotional disturbance can not mind pain, but that state is also not so great for survival. This would have to be some sort of electronic Zen state, where you are aware of your physical condition and able to act on it perfectly rationally rather than being distracted by it. Cyber buddhists or something. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvQViPBAvPk
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Jun 25, 2017 14:01
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We saw Clara's death on screen. All the adventures she will have as an immortal took place between her last heartbeat. The Clara we saw die was the one who had all those adventures and then returned to the moment of her death after an indeterminate amount of time. Not that it matters, since this whole argument is ridiculous. Bill is not getting killed off because she's gay or black, and anyone who thinks she is needs to grow up. Bringing up her gender and sexuality constantly, as if she's defined completely by it, is just as harmful as ignoring it altogether. And getting pissy about this sort of thing in an episode of Doctor Who just trivialises real issues.
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Jun 25, 2017 14:03
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2house2fly posted:Why? The character's just as dead. When you think about it, no one in fiction ever truly gets killed off because you can just watch old episodes, and there they are again. Similarly, you could argue Missy is actually benevolent because when you rewind the episodes, she constantly revives people.
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Jun 25, 2017 14:07
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At this point last season Clara appeared to be dead.
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Jun 25, 2017 14:09
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Well, been a while since a Doctor Who episode actually frightened me.
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Jun 25, 2017 14:22
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I mean, it's not as if some screenwriters even write meta-jokes about the tendency for black, gay, or female characters to snuff it more commonly than they should.
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Jun 25, 2017 14:25
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Mind Loving Owl posted:Well, been a while since a Doctor Who episode actually frightened me. Yeah, even knowing the Cyberman reveal was coming, the hospital full of partial converts only saying "pain pain pain" and "kill me" was genuinely unsettling.
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Jun 25, 2017 14:30
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So the Doctor inadvertently creates two of his worst enemies, Daleks and now Cybermen. Looking forward to the next Doc creating the Weeping Angels.
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Jun 25, 2017 14:41
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happyhippy posted:So the Doctor inadvertently creates two of his worst enemies, Daleks and now Cybermen. He more failed to stop the Daleks than created them. Unless there's a New Adventures novel where he does or something.
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Jun 25, 2017 14:46
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Fil5000 posted:He more failed to stop the Daleks than created them. Unless there's a New Adventures novel where he does or something. He saves Devros as a child, who goes on to create the Daleks.
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Jun 25, 2017 14:53
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I also don't think he can be said to have "created" the Cybermen, but that does make me think... maybe the hints of a lot of combat and action next week turn out to be just the start, with the Doctor realising fighting them just results in them improving and coming back stronger and having to figure out a different way to resolve things. That sounds a bit more Moffaty at least.
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Jun 25, 2017 14:53
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mycomancy posted:He saves Devros as a child, who goes on to create the Daleks. Wow, I forgot that happened. And that was only last series wasn't it?
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Jun 25, 2017 14:56
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So one funny thing I noticed, and it might be fixed by the next episode The Cyberman's cloth head doesn't seem anywhere near as flexible as the old ones were. When Bill was speaking, the mouth barely moved, which I don't think is near as creepy as the mouth opening into this gaping hole while a sing song voice comes out. That's the entire point of the cloth mask, to get that weird inhuman look, like they're always screaming when they talk. Also, I don't know why they kept harping on Bill's heart. She also lost a good chunk of her ribs, her lungs, her sternum, her esophagus, and a pretty good chunk of her spine. Like, Bill, sweetie? You're already 90% Cyberman now. They just keep downplaying it.
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Jun 25, 2017 15:11
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CityMidnightJunky posted:We saw Clara's death on screen. All the adventures she will have as an immortal took place between her last heartbeat. The Clara we saw die was the one who had all those adventures and then returned to the moment of her death after an indeterminate amount of time. The obvious solution is to have no gay, black or transgendered characters in the show, so that when they do die, it doesn't really matter.
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Jun 25, 2017 15:16
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Cleretic posted:I was thinking of White Hole, where different parts of the ship are experiencing time at different rates. But there's a few that tread similar ground to this, really. And honestly I think they were aware of it, that opening shot panning across an impossibly huge ship was right out of the original Red Dwarf opening. In the White Hole equivalent part of the Red Dwarf novelisations they actually do have the ship being slowly sucked into a black hole while time flows at different speeds at the front and the back and all other kinds of weird time-dilation-ey things happen. So I got some serious deja vu from this setup.
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Jun 25, 2017 15:19
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Sad King Billy posted:The obvious solution is to have no gay, black or transgendered characters in the show, so that when they do die, it doesn't really matter. Or to completely saturate all genre fiction with them so when they did there are still plenty left over
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Jun 25, 2017 15:23
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When Simm-Master regenerates, an amnesiac Missy is only going to remember that she likes loving with doctors, and is going to end up as the staff liason at an English hospital for a few years. (Yes I've been watching Green Wing again. What of it?)
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Jun 25, 2017 15:50
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Well, this is certainly going to be a depressing way to end the season. Christ. Good job with the Cybermen, though. They're genuinely creepy for like the first time since... like... the Tenth Planet. The Master revelation felt a bit Old Who in more of a cheesy way, but I'll take it. This definitely wasn't the way that I wanted Bill to go out, though. 
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Jun 25, 2017 15:51
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That was a really good episode. I wish they hadn't spoilt both Simm and the Cybermen though, those would jave been great surprises. The Simm reveal was still good though, I was waiting to see where he'd pop up but it took until he was talking to Missy for me to realise he'd been there the whole time. The ship set up was cool too. I must be a big nerd because I put long ship and black hole together straight away. I'm sure I've seen that set-up in some other sci-fi thing.
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Jun 25, 2017 15:56
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Bicyclops posted:Well, this is certainly going to be a depressing way to end the season. Christ. Good job with the Cybermen, though. They're genuinely creepy for like the first time since... like... the Tenth Planet. The Master revelation felt a bit Old Who in more of a cheesy way, but I'll take it. I just love the fact that Simms-Master turns up with a good old-fashioned disguise and a goatee  .
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Jun 25, 2017 16:00
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Bicyclops posted:Well, this is certainly going to be a depressing way to end the season. Christ. Good job with the Cybermen, though. They're genuinely creepy for like the first time since... like... the Tenth Planet. The Master revelation felt a bit Old Who in more of a cheesy way, but I'll take it. As awesome as the Mondasian design is, I found the 'patients with IV stands tapping out messages on keypads' pre-Cybermen to be even creepier.
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Jun 25, 2017 16:30
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Just one thing I'm a little unclear on. Did the Mondasians, pre-wandering, commision this ship from an alien construction company?
Mind Loving Owl fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Jun 25, 2017 |
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Jun 25, 2017 16:30
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Also, SIMM, not SIMMS, for god's sake, people.
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Jun 25, 2017 16:30
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Mind Loving Owl posted:Just one thing I'm a little unclear on. Did the Mondasians, pre-wandering, commision this ship from an alien construction company. That does seem a little on the odd side, if only because you'd think that a version of Mondas that had contact with alien life would have had other options for "our planet is loving unlivable" than "welp let's turn ourselves into cyborg monomaniacs". Then again, maybe this ship was their 'evacuate Mondas' plan and, well, we saw how it turned out.
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Jun 25, 2017 16:33
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docbeard posted:That does seem a little on the odd side, if only because you'd think that a version of Mondas that had contact with alien life would have had other options for "our planet is loving unlivable" than "welp let's turn ourselves into cyborg monomaniacs". Then again, maybe this ship was their 'evacuate Mondas' plan and, well, we saw how it turned out. Maybe the Mondasians who became the Cybermen were the ones that couldn't pull themselves into space by their bootstraps? A Mondasian diaspora would explain a lot of the random humans that pop up around the universe. Also, I wonder if the ship had a destination in mind, or if they were just going to content themselves with a four hundred mile long collection of bioshpheres.
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Jun 25, 2017 17:04
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DoctorWhat posted:killing a gay black woman off would be loving vile This has been Moffat's master plan all along. He's had this in mind since he became showrunner, probably since he was a teenager actually. Become in charge of Doctor Who, spend years trying to prove you're not sexist and act as progressive as possible while apologizing for gaffes and doing stuff like MtF Time Lord regeneration, create a gay, black, female character--and have her killed off by a white male.  Patriarchy's ultimate victory! With a totally non-convoluted plan!  The_Doctor posted:I do wonder if the Master was the one who gave the Mondasians on the ship the idea of Cyber-conversion in the first place. Who are the other aliens on the ship like Jorj, the blue guy? Where were/are they hiding? This is my theory, and the reason why I think it doesn't negate Spare Parts at all: -The Master escapes un-Time Locked Gallifrey, probably after killing Dalton-Rassilon and forcing his regeneration into Old Man Rassilon -He goes to Mondas, perhaps just after Spare Parts and tells them "hey, there's aliens out there, I'm one of them, and we want to help you!" then song and dance sells them the idea of a  -He takes 50 Mondasians off and goes to pick up the colony ship with Blue Guy -He then purposefully flys it towards a black hole and sends 20 people down to the engines, who live there for hundreds of years, have kids, etc. Eventually poo poo starts to break down because it's been 1000 years -After a few hours/centuries he goes down himself to spend some time in disguise as Mr. Razor. He probably kills the people who were sent up to Floor 507 or whatever, and urges them to use their Mondasian cyber conversion tech to survive the harrowing journey back to the bridge. He probably also starts sending up partially converted people to kidnap the remaining 30 or so Mondasians and convert them I really want to rewatch this episode because I think I missed a lot. Sometimes it's hard for me to hear the dialogue with the music mix...I think there's something wrong with my tv settings. Also I never clocked Mr. Razor as John Simm til he said "you'd never be so self-destructive" to Missy, though in retrospect a lot of his "OOH A HAT!" and sinister tea comments were very, very much Simm-Master. I read somewhere else there were some Saxon/Simm musical cues in there with Mr. Razor so I want to listen for those. I liked the way the tech/design in the Mondasian city was very 1950s in nature--very evocative of Spare Parts.
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Jun 25, 2017 17:11
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Astroman posted:This has been Moffat's master plan all along. He's had this in mind since he became showrunner, probably since he was a teenager actually. Become in charge of Doctor Who, spend years trying to prove you're not sexist and act as progressive as possible while apologizing for gaffes and doing stuff like MtF Time Lord regeneration, create a gay, black, female character--and have her killed off by a white male. On a related note, I cannot decide whether a blue person panicking and shooting a black person who was posing him no actual threat is just a coincidence or some of the most subtle and creative satire that Doctor Who has ever done. I'm choosing to think the latter.
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Jun 25, 2017 17:14
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docbeard posted:On a related note, I cannot decide whether a blue person panicking and shooting a black person who was posing him no actual threat is just a coincidence or some of the most subtle and creative satire that Doctor Who has ever done. I'm choosing to think the latter. Should have been a red person surely?
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Jun 25, 2017 17:17
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It would kind of suck if the last two black regulars on this show (Danny and Bill) were both Cyber-Converted.
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Jun 25, 2017 17:29
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Girl Master + Boy Master + Time dilation = 1000s of kiddy Masters!
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Jun 25, 2017 17:41
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Astroman posted:This has been Moffat's master plan all along. He's had this in mind since he became showrunner, probably since he was a teenager actually. Become in charge of Doctor Who, spend years trying to prove you're not sexist and act as progressive as possible while apologizing for gaffes and doing stuff like MtF Time Lord regeneration, create a gay, black, female character--and have her killed off by a white male. I don't think this timeline QUITE works because Mondasians would still have the same agoraphobia that necessitated the conversion process I'm the first place. Plus Zheng would have been converting them as fast as possible anyway.
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Jun 25, 2017 18:13
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docbeard posted:On a related note, I cannot decide whether a blue person panicking and shooting a black person who was posing him no actual threat is just a coincidence or some of the most subtle and creative satire that Doctor Who has ever done. I'm choosing to think the latter. How about the first gay companion being forced into "conversion" by the Master? It's been said before but this season is just bursting at the seams with leftist/anti-fascist messages. RE: the Kill Your Gays thing: one of the weird quirks of being gay at the moment is that TV has had a significant uptick in gay representation and, simultaneously, sudden shocking character deaths. It's sometimes hard not to feel a little put out when shows go, "Here's those interesting, relatable gay characters you've always wanted! Alsoeveryonedieslifeisnotafairytaletragedybringsintheratingskthxbai!"
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Jun 25, 2017 18:32
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I don't really remember all that much about the Simm master as it was so many years ago when I watched it. What was the conclusion of his arc? Is it possible for him to take off after being prime minister and keep doing Master stuff before turning into MIssy?
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Jun 25, 2017 18:34
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Cojawfee posted:I don't really remember all that much about the Simm master as it was so many years ago when I watched it. What was the conclusion of his arc? Is it possible for him to take off after being prime minister and keep doing Master stuff before turning into MIssy? He was killed while being PM, then resurrected by his "wife", then went to Gallifrey while it was being locked away.
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Jun 25, 2017 18:37
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Cojawfee posted:I don't really remember all that much about the Simm master as it was so many years ago when I watched it. What was the conclusion of his arc? Is it possible for him to take off after being prime minister and keep doing Master stuff before turning into MIssy? He ate a whole roast chicken really quickly. And I think started eating people?
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Jun 25, 2017 18:37
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Cojawfee posted:I don't really remember all that much about the Simm master as it was so many years ago when I watched it. What was the conclusion of his arc? Is it possible for him to take off after being prime minister and keep doing Master stuff before turning into MIssy? My best guess is that this takes place sometime between "shooting Rassilon and the Time Lords back to the time lock with Iron Man lasers" in End of Time and whenever he regenerates into Missy.
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Jun 25, 2017 18:38
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