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I haven't felt a Doctor Who cliffhanger reveal hit me this hard since Utopia. Also, this was probably the best Cybermen episode we've gotten in a long time. Modern Cybermen have spent way too much time being monotone Iron Man mooks and taking them back to their roots was a great way to reinvigorate them (even if you do have to do some mental gymnastics to keep Spare Parts canon). When was the last time (in the TV series) a Cybermen story was this unnerving? The 60s?
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Jun 26, 2017 00:19
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Elite posted:That was a great episode. Would have been even better if they hadn't tipped their hand a bit about The Master and Cybermen though. Actually, I think the Master may have been lying.  Wholesale lying to Bill about the whole thing, and nobody else ever talked to her. Remember the life readings? If that is accurate, while the greatest concentration is at the bottom, there are people living on nearly 3/4 of the ship. There are people on the 500th floor. What must have happened was the 20 man repair crew got to the bottom of the ship, and found years or decades of neglect had led to multiple failures in engineering. They went to 'space school' so they figure out what the problem is, and that they need to stay in engineering to babysit the engines. The mission has changed and this is now a generational ship, it will take thousands of years for the engineering deck to break free of the black hole. 20 is not a stable long-term breeding population, so at some point they make a grab for what genetic diversity is available. They need the rest of the crew, but they can't spend hours on the top floor explaining the problem while decades pass below. Get in, grab them fast, and get out. Explain it to them on downstairs. They don't take the blue guy because he has no value as breeding stock, and they don't bother explaining anything to him because he's a dumb, cowardly BlueMan janitor and they are racists.  At some point they have more population in engineering than is needed to maintain the engines and provide support services for the engineers, so they start colonizing nearby decks.
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Jun 26, 2017 00:35
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For those who mentioned it, this episode doesn't actually contradict Spare Parts. Spare Parts happened on Mondas itself after it was knocked out of the solar system and this episode took place on a colony ship from Mondas. I absolutely loved the Master reveal, I was not expecting it at all. That was some old school Master stuff: he shows up with no explanation of how he survived last time, and he wore a disguise for the entire episode just to gently caress with people. Part of me wonders if he introduced the concept of Cybermen to the ship, since he was familiar with what happened on Mondas. And they dropped some hints about an expedition to the 500th level, I think that may be part of his plan.
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Jun 26, 2017 00:46
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Gordon Shumway posted:For those who mentioned it, this episode doesn't actually contradict Spare Parts. Spare Parts happened on Mondas itself after it was knocked out of the solar system and this episode took place on a colony ship from Mondas. Definitely, he's a master manipulator. I bet the only reason they came for Bill was because he was watching for months and decided that was the best plan to gently caress with the Doctor. He probably only put on the disguise a few minutes before she woke up, since no one from Mondas would care that he was a former prime minister. He would love the time dilation ship, it is like a fast forward button for human lives. He can arrange things in engineering, go to a higher floor for a few days and work on things there, then go back to the engineering deck and 20 years has passed. Next best thing to time travel.
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Jun 26, 2017 00:53
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Facebook Aunt posted:Definitely, he's a master manipulator.  Facebook Aunt posted:I bet the only reason they came for Bill was because he was watching for months and decided that was the best plan to gently caress with the Doctor. He probably only put on the disguise a few minutes before she woke up, since no one from Mondas would care that he was a former prime minister. Would be very surprised if the Master didn't steal a TARDIS from Gallifrey after EoT.
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Jun 26, 2017 01:00
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TinTower posted:
Maybe, but tell me this temporal playground isn't more fun! Oh, and the Doctor said the black hole made precise movements difficult.
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Jun 26, 2017 01:06
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Interesting comparison shot between the population of the ship at 15 minutes into the episode compared to 30 minutes in.   Looks like the upper decks are dying off as the lower decks grow in population.
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Jun 26, 2017 01:09
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That could be from kidnappings for conversion even.
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Jun 26, 2017 01:17
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Kind of obvious guess that I haven't heard mentioned yet: The next episode is called "The Doctor Falls". They are on a 400 mile long spaceship, what if the next episode is him falling through the spaceship?
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Jun 26, 2017 01:19
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Mokinokaro posted:That could be from kidnappings for conversion even. Makes sense. People on the engineering deck won't riot over strangers from other decks being experimented on.
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Jun 26, 2017 01:20
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Facebook Aunt posted:Makes sense. People on the engineering deck won't riot over strangers from other decks being experimented on. IF the Master wasn't lying (of course it's never easy to tell with him) the engineering deck people think no one else is alive on the ship which makes that even easier.
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Jun 26, 2017 01:24
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Facebook Aunt posted:He probably only put on the disguise a few minutes before she woke up, since no one from Mondas would care that he was a former prime minister. What I'm wondering is, he's established as some kind of janitor type called Mr Razor right after Bill wakes up. Was he always Mr Razor or did he put on the disguise one day and say "the Master had to go, I'm his replacement"? glowing-fish posted:Kind of obvious guess that I haven't heard mentioned yet:
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Jun 26, 2017 01:43
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2house2fly posted:What I'm wondering is, he's established as some kind of janitor type called Mr Razor right after Bill wakes up. Was he always Mr Razor or did he put on the disguise one day and say "the Master had to go, I'm his replacement"? I'm guessing he was always Mr. Razor (and might even have been one of the original 50) and just shot anyone who looked like they were about to haul him off for conversion and stuffed them in a body bag with a keyboard that shouted "PAIN" occasionally.
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Jun 26, 2017 01:59
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2house2fly posted:When I saw that there were multiple ecosystems on the ship I wondered if the finale would involve climactic battle on a waterfall. Wouldn't shock me, considering Moffat's affinity for The Final Problem, if he went to the Reichenbach Falls well again.
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Jun 26, 2017 02:00
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The_Doctor posted:Day 365,433 now and she's cleaning floors. Bill's been down there over a year. The doctor mentions that it's been ten minutes since the pre-cybermen took Bill when he heads for the lift. 1000 years in two days gives us a nice round number, so 500/24 is ~20.8 years an hour, divided by six is just a smidge under 3 and a half years spent cleaning hospital floors with creepy Mister Razor. 
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Jun 26, 2017 02:26
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The_Doctor posted:A white hole? Also, chalk me up for one of the people super annoyed by the two major spoilers in the preview for this ep. Usually when they do this, it only ruins a first-act twist that then becomes the plot of the episode, but entirely spoiling the entire end of the episode is just... tacky.
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Jun 26, 2017 02:41
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Murderion posted:The doctor mentions that it's been ten minutes since the pre-cybermen took Bill when he heads for the lift. 1000 years in two days gives us a nice round number, so 500/24 is ~20.8 years an hour, divided by six is just a smidge under 3 and a half years spent cleaning hospital floors with creepy Mister Razor. I dunno the Master can be pretty charming and witty when he wants to be, from Delgado all the way up to Gomez. But once you've outlived your usefulness...
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Jun 26, 2017 03:39
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Bicyclops posted:I personally think Moffat just kills off all of his companions and that he saved the most tragic death for the last one, and that while the timing is unfortunate, it is not inappropriate for this to happen to Bill. Well I was being a bit hyperbolic but does anybody seriously believe that Moffat really has it out for POCs, women, and lesbians? That he purposefully created this character just to kill her off? Or that because of the problematic issues with killing off POCs, women, and queer characters they should have plot armor? Facebook Aunt posted:Actually, I think the Master may have been lying. I'm pretty sure that all the other floors are filled with already converted Cybermen. They're just pumping them out and sending them up, and when he's done the Master will have a Cyber-Army and a badass ship to go around conquering poo poo with.
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Jun 26, 2017 03:50
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LividLiquid posted:Dear god, I think I just worried the neighbors with my cackling. It helps that I have been part of an exchange exactly like this with you years ago in some other thread when we were talking about White Hole. ....So what is it?
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Jun 26, 2017 04:01
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Already been said 100 times but both major reveals in this episode should've remained hidden until airing. I imagine the thread would've gone nuts like it did for Night of the Doctor. Pain. Pain. Pain.
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Jun 26, 2017 04:34
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Thanks to the Lie of the Land it's become impossible to give a poo poo about teased regeneration scenes so the start of the episode fell completely flat. The rest was loving fantastic though, even if you had been spoilt by the trailers.
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Jun 26, 2017 04:35
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I actually feel like the Cyberman spoiler at least was almost a decoy spoiler, we got so caught on to the flat facts of that twist that we didn't see the REAL twist coming, which is that Bill gets converted. John Simm's Master, there's no excusing that one. But the Mondasian Cybermen worked to distract people from what might happen to Bill in a way that the usual Cybermen wouldn't have.
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Jun 26, 2017 04:51
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Astroman posted:Well I was being a bit hyperbolic but does anybody seriously believe that Moffat really has it out for POCs, women, and lesbians? That he purposefully created this character just to kill her off? No, nobody does, and the fact that you are asking your question demonstrates your total and complete lack of understanding. I think Bill is likely to end up some version of "dead but not dead," which is what Moffat does with all his companions. Rory and Amy notwithstanding, I actually kind of like it. Moffat gets to process his own complicated grief with parting ways with his actors, the audience gets to say dramatic goodbyes to eras of the show, etc, etc. It works. It was mismanaged for Amy and Rory, but it worked really well for Clara and River, and I think it will work well for Bill. This one is likely to be particularly tragic, because he's giving his show away. They will either find a way to reverse the Cyber-conversion at the cost of the Doctor's life or say a tearful goodbye to Bill and then kill Peter Capaldi, but either way, Moffat's era being defined by killing (but not killing) his companions takes a natural capstone in this episode, and that it happened to be at the time we had Bill sucks, but within the context of it happening to all of the Doctor's companions, I don't have an issue with it. There is a larger context when it comes to sexual identity and race, though, and it is probably worth listening to people who have complaints. One of the reasons it would help to have someone who isn't a white guy in the role of the Doctor is that is the only real tragic deaths we can experience as an audience involve companions, which means that as representation happens, the show contributes to the refrigerator problem unless nobody dies.
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Jun 26, 2017 05:30
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Bill's not going to stay cyber'd, and then she'll go on a universe spanning adventure with the talking puddle
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Jun 26, 2017 05:34
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Thanks to the Lie of the Land it's become impossible to give a poo poo about teased regeneration scenes so the start of the episode fell completely flat. Start of the episode he's regenerating in the snow and in the next week trailer some regeneration energy comes out when he's on grass, we could have at least TWO more fakeouts! 
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Jun 26, 2017 05:48
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Facebook Aunt posted:Makes sense. People on the engineering deck won't riot over strangers from other decks being experimented on. 28 Year old Mid Deck Member: You hauled me down here to forcibly convert me? That's terrible! 90 Year Old Lower Deck Member: My great grandpa Teddy Smith always told my Granddaddy that you do what you can with the tools available. 28 Year Old Mid Deck Member: .....wait, I'M Teddy Smith. I sent my son down below to get a wrench 2 days ago  MysticalMachineGun posted:Start of the episode he's regenerating in the snow and in the next week trailer some regeneration energy comes out when he's on grass, we could have at least TWO more fakeouts! m... maybe all the fakeouts are so we'll think this is finally it in the Xmas Special and then he fakes out again and stays on as the Doctor for another 15 years? 
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Jun 26, 2017 06:12
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MysticalMachineGun posted:Start of the episode he's regenerating in the snow and in the next week trailer some regeneration energy comes out when he's on grass, we could have at least TWO more fakeouts! Maybe the twist is that he is coming back next season! The Doctor isn't regenerating, he's just . . . leaky.
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Jun 26, 2017 06:15
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Facebook Aunt posted:Maybe the twist is that he is coming back next season! The Doctor isn't regenerating, he's just . . . leaky. Time lord incontinence
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Jun 26, 2017 06:21
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Jerusalem posted:m... maybe all the fakeouts are so we'll think this is finally it in the Xmas Special and then he fakes out again and stays on as the Doctor for another 15 years? Facebook Aunt posted:Maybe the twist is that he is coming back next season! The Doctor isn't regenerating, he's just . . . leaky. If only 
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Jun 26, 2017 06:37
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Jerusalem posted:m... maybe all the fakeouts are so we'll think this is finally it in the Xmas Special and then he fakes out again and stays on as the Doctor for another 15 years? Facebook Aunt posted:Maybe the twist is that he is coming back next season! The Doctor isn't regenerating, he's just . . . leaky. Two sources, that's 100% confirmed Capaldi stays! 
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Jun 26, 2017 06:37
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Bicyclops posted:No, nobody does, and the fact that you are asking your question demonstrates your total and complete lack of understanding. And your trite dismissal of me clearly demonstrates your superiority. Bicyclops posted:There is a larger context when it comes to sexual identity and race, though, and it is probably worth listening to people who have complaints. One of the reasons it would help to have someone who isn't a white guy in the role of the Doctor is that is the only real tragic deaths we can experience as an audience involve companions, which means that as representation happens, the show contributes to the refrigerator problem unless nobody dies. This same discussion occured in the 100 thread, where the complaint was a character shouldn't be killed off because she was a lesbian.I have heard the arguments but I have yet to be pursuaded that as we have more and more queer characters they must be protected from dying. The "refrigerator problem" is that queer characters always die, and it's implied this is done on purpose by cishet writers who hate gays, but if someone calls this out as dumb we hear "nobody is saying this." I say it's silly that queer characters should have plot armor, you say nobody is saying this and I don;t get it, but you just said "unless nobody dies." I will admit there were probably times due to bias or misplaced dramatic license writers killed off queer characters, but I cannot accept that is still what is happening or the solution is plot armor, or increasing representation to 50% or something. BBC shows (at least on BBCA) and Doctor Who in particular have had a lot of positive inclusion and representation in the past few years and I think it's wrong to say killing Bill is YET MORE FRIDGING.
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Jun 26, 2017 06:56
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NPR Journalizard posted:Time lord incontinence That's why they traditionally limit it to 12 regenerations. Any more and things get messy.
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Jun 26, 2017 07:13
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OK, on my second watch through of World and Time Enough and you know what I love most about Michelle Gomez/Missy/this season? (And the disclaimer here is I'm a really limited fan with most of my experience of Doctor Who is largely limited to TV stories from Tom to the present.) I love how it's the first time I've really thought of The Master as the equal but opposite force to The Doctor. I think if I were better acquainted with the Third Doctor's Era or Big Finish Audios or if I just had a little more imagination of my own this wouldn't be such a revelation. But I'm re-watching Missy introduce herself as "Doctor Who" and thinking back to her line form the Monk three parter about having her own adventures and I'm really thinking -- Missy/The Master has been running around all this time being the Doctor but as a complete rear end in a top hat. Not even a villain. Just a troll. I mean I got that a bit from Trial of a Timelord, now I think of it. The Master was affronted by a properly evil Doctor. But now I really see there is a Master apart of the Doctor; I get a sense of what s/he is up to when she's not specifically in a Doctor Who story. And it's the same thing The Doctor is doing. But with an eye toward being a oval office for the joy of being a oval office. It's kind of retroactively opening up my appreciation of Simm's and Ainley's work too. How could I not have seen The Master as a being unto himself? Goodness gracious this season has been awesome. I've watched and loved every season because I love Doctor Who but the more objective portions of my brain see this season as one that resonates like Classic Who. Not because I want it to but because it does. This is the season Moffat, the author of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, makes good on the promise of those episodes. And I guess I need to shell out for Britbox because I really want to see Delgado in action. I've gathered he is the gold standard and realized his era of Who is the one with which I'm least familiar. Please let next week's episode be as good as this one.
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Jun 26, 2017 07:31
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Burning that much regeneration energy is gonna screw over a future incarnation, which will probably lead to a short regeneration followed by an abrupt renewal Twelve hasn't been thinking of his future all that much I also wonder how the TARDIS console room is gonna be destroyed this time Probably by falling into a black hole and being spat out on the other side of the universe
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Jun 26, 2017 07:35
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Vinylshadow posted:Burning that much regeneration energy is gonna screw over a future incarnation, which will probably lead to a short regeneration followed by an abrupt renewal I've been hoping for a hosed regeneration. They've hinted enough, lets see it happen. "LEGS! I DON'T HAVE LEGS!"
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Jun 26, 2017 07:39
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Thalidomide Regeneration? So are we talking Muppet Doctor, maybe SFX Doctor like Lt. Dan? Split the difference with a Kiv-like character? Or just get Dinklage to play the part. One of the few Americans I'd be ok with. ooooh -- or have Rachel Denning back since we've established The Doctor gets his faces from prior encounters? That'd be cool. I really liked her as Erica.
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Jun 26, 2017 08:06
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King Plum the Nth posted:OK, on my second watch through of World and Time Enough and you know what I love most about Michelle Gomez/Missy/this season? (And the disclaimer here is I'm a really limited fan with most of my experience of Doctor Who is largely limited to TV stories from Tom to the present.) I love how it's the first time I've really thought of The Master as the equal but opposite force to The Doctor. I think if I were better acquainted with the Third Doctor's Era or Big Finish Audios or if I just had a little more imagination of my own this wouldn't be such a revelation. But I'm re-watching Missy introduce herself as "Doctor Who" and thinking back to her line form the Monk three parter about having her own adventures and I'm really thinking -- Missy/The Master has been running around all this time being the Doctor but as a complete rear end in a top hat. Not even a villain. Just a troll. I mean I got that a bit from Trial of a Timelord, now I think of it. The Master was affronted by a properly evil Doctor. But now I really see there is a Master apart of the Doctor; I get a sense of what s/he is up to when she's not specifically in a Doctor Who story. And it's the same thing The Doctor is doing. But with an eye toward being a oval office for the joy of being a oval office. It's kind of retroactively opening up my appreciation of Simm's and Ainley's work too. How could I not have seen The Master as a being unto himself? With Delgado you get a polite, genteel genius who's facade occasionally slips and you see the utter bastard behind. He'll be your best friend right up until it's time for him to gently caress you over, and while you won't see it coming, he'll make sure you know it was him. Everything he did was in pursuit of a bigger goal, though, loving with people was just a bonus. Much as I enjoy Ainley, he's pretty much a pantomime villain in comparison.
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Jun 26, 2017 08:22
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To be fair to Ainley it's not a bad direction to take the character, and it suited the stories he was in. Also he would sometimes answer the phone by saying "This is the Master", followed by a cackle.
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Jun 26, 2017 09:15
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For people who's GCSE English was a long time ago, the title of the episode "World enough and time" isn't just a snazzy description of the episode, but is also the opening line of the fabulous poem "To His Coy Mistress" which can basically be summarised as "you should totally sleep with me, cos you'll be dead eventually"quote:Had we but world enough, and time,
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Jun 26, 2017 09:24
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Strom Cuzewon posted:For people who's GCSE English was a long time ago, the title of the episode "World enough and time" isn't just a snazzy description of the episode, but is also the opening line of the fabulous poem "To His Coy Mistress" which can basically be summarised as "you should totally sleep with me, cos you'll be dead eventually" Every metaphysical poem is basically 'you should sleep with me'. We did John Donne at GCSE and it was the same thing.
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Jun 26, 2017 09:29
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